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#31 of 65 Old 10-05-2012, 03:57 PM
 
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Exactly. Vaccine "science" is not science, it is more like anti-science. The "studies" do not follow proper scientific method.


"Oh, but it would be "unethical" to withhold vaccines in order to conduct proper research!" said the cart-before-the-horse vaccine-risk denialist.


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#32 of 65 Old 10-07-2012, 12:41 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I am not sure it was the mercury that caused the rise in autism.  Do you have a link?  Where did you get the quote "the rationale for birth year restriction…..".  I took a look over the abstract and it was not there.

 

 

In any event - I have 3 kids.  The oldest is almost 17.  When he was a baby, Hep B was related to an increase in autism (3 fold, it turns out, in newborn males)  He was also one of the last kids given DPT - they switched over to DTaP when he was around 2, turns out DTaP was/is safer.  The point of this story is we learn more about vaccine safety all the time.  Early rotavirus vaccines were abandoned as they caused overly high rates of intussuseption.   http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/rotavirus/vac-rotashield-historical.htm   Science and what is seen as safe is changing all the time.  A vaccine being "safe" isn't good enough, in my opinion, to inject it into a child - it must also serve a need.  I don't give my kids any medicine for kicks - it is to serve a need.  There is no need for newborns to receive the Hep B shot at birth unless their mother has Hep. B

Well crud, the first time around I did so much googling I ended up finagling the full article, I didn't think to save it.  If I find it again I will post it.  Don't have a link about the mercury, but googling the two reveals much debate about it.  Regardless it's something that even the FDA disapproves of at that concentration, so it must do something bad!  

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#33 of 65 Old 10-07-2012, 01:40 PM - Thread Starter
 
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All good stuff.  Hasn't helped me come to a decision :DDDD but very good discussion.  I have a belief that I live by.  That truth, and fact, and knowledge, cannot be two sided.  If you have 2 views on one point, you have not debated enough.  Either biases **** exist, there is a miscommunication, or there is not enough information.  Unfortunately I feel that the vaccine debate is filled with much of all 3 of those.  But onward.

 

So what about the herd immunity argument?

 

http://www.parade.com/health/2012/10/07-why-so-many-parents-are-delaying-vaccines.html?fb_ref=.UHGtGncHwcM.like&fb_source=home_multiline

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#34 of 65 Old 10-07-2012, 05:10 PM
 
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http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1046335/another-herd-immunity-thread/20

 
 
 
 
 
 
A few links for you on discussions on herd immunity  Have fun!  

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#35 of 65 Old 10-07-2012, 05:14 PM
 
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All good stuff.  Hasn't helped me come to a decision :DDDD but very good discussion.  I have a belief that I live by.  That truth, and fact, and knowledge, cannot be two sided.  If you have 2 views on one point, you have not debated enough.  Either biases **** exist, there is a miscommunication, or there is not enough information.  Unfortunately I feel that the vaccine debate is filled with much of all 3 of those.  But onward.

 

Many people do have multiple views on vaccines.  I guess for some people they are an either/or scenario…but not for me.

 

If you get me in a compliant mood, I might admit measles and Polio are not horrible vaccines.  At a minimum, I understand others choosing them.

 

Hep B. Rubella and CP as routine for all in early childhood?  Hell no.


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#36 of 65 Old 10-12-2012, 11:02 AM
 
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There's a couple of recent independent literature reviews on vaccine safety and effectiveness. Ones for the Cohcrane group. I'll post the links when I get back to my computer (prob tuesday). But the bottom line of both is that overall the research shows vaccines are safe and effective (even given small number if studies which suggest some correlations). The vast majority of studies are null for correlation between vaccines and anything except a reduction in the chance of catching vaccine preventable diseases.
There's a lot of scary stuff online (and in books). Please read skeptically, and don't be scared by the vaccine ingredient lists. Most of that stuff is there for a reason and in amounts so tiny that it will be dwarfed by your child's environmental exposure (which is perhaps the real scary thing!).
I'll just end by saying that, incase its not obvious to you, choosing to not vaccinate does not need to be considered part of natural parenting. Much of the science comes down in favor of lots of natural parenting issues, like breast feeding, cosleeping, a reduction in medical intervention in birth etc. There are excellent environmental reasons for cloth diapers, eating local organic food etc. Science still comes down in favour of vaccinating. smile.gif
Anyway good luck in your decision. smile.gif

 Just because something serves a purpose doesn't mean it's safe. Most of those ingredients have never been assessed for safety or how they have been assessed is inadequate (thinking of the initial study lilly used to claim that thimerosal was safe) ie what are the effects of injecting xyz into a newborn infant. However all of them have horrifying MSDS that address other routes of exposure and at times injection. I agree that environmental exposure to many toxic chemicals possibly outweighs exposure of said chemicals in vaccines but with that being said - I try to reduce the amount of exposure myself and my children have to toxic chemicals. here is a lovely look at formaldehyde from 1905 http://jem.rupress.org/content/6/4-6/487.abstract. But you know the amount in vaccines is so small this shouldn't bother anyone right?...well it bothers me.


If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#37 of 65 Old 10-12-2012, 11:59 PM
 
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So I do not have any links to scientific studies, but I have personal experience, which can sometimes be stronger. Might I be allowed to voice this without Sciencemom responding (attacking) my views? Thank you ScienceMom smile.gif

My friend has a daughter who recieved all the required vaccinations, however the doctor lost her records and she was required to redo ALL of them. Trusting it was ok, and trusting the doctors word, my friend complied. Scince retaking all of them, her daughter has developed a learning disorder and now requires special education classes. The daughter is old enough to remember how she was before the 2nd set and fully blames the vaccines. As does her mother

Another friend. Brought her daughter home after a routine vaccine administration and her daughter goes into seizures.

Now I know that many pro-vaccine people will EASILY write these off, stating it is impossible to know if the vaccines or something else caused the reactions. Try telling that to the parents. Try telling the parents of a 2 year old who is a happy toddler when he leaves for the doctors office and returns home only to start convulsing and become very withdrawn.

Are you aware the US government has a fund set aside just for children who are injured by vaccines?? If vaccines are safe, why does this fund exsist? Even if the "odds are low" that your baby will be injured by a vaccine, do you really want YOUR child to be that one?

I decided not to vaccinate after hearing stories of parents with children injured by a vaccine. I've decided instead to work WITH my children's immune systems by building them up to be the strongest they can possibly be, so if/when they encounter a virus/bacteria, we will be prepared to handle it. Lots of Vit C and even more probiotics are just two of the ways


I won't even mention how vaccines are injected into muscle tissue, thereby completely missing the mucus membranes, which would never happen if they were to encounter the real deal. That's another thread. Good luck

ETA: thank you Taximom5 wink1.gif

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#38 of 65 Old 10-13-2012, 03:49 AM
 
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since it was found only 1% of adults are up to date, there is NO herd immunity out there

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All good stuff.  Hasn't helped me come to a decision :DDDD but very good discussion.  I have a belief that I live by.  That truth, and fact, and knowledge, cannot be two sided.  If you have 2 views on one point, you have not debated enough.  Either biases **** exist, there is a miscommunication, or there is not enough information.  Unfortunately I feel that the vaccine debate is filled with much of all 3 of those.  But onward.

 

So what about the herd immunity argument?

 

http://www.parade.com/health/2012/10/07-why-so-many-parents-are-delaying-vaccines.html?fb_ref=.UHGtGncHwcM.like&fb_source=home_multiline

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#39 of 65 Old 10-13-2012, 11:32 AM
 
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since it was found only 1% of adults are up to date, there is NO herd immunity out there

 

Where is the 1% statistic from?  Which vaccines were counted?  If a person skips a recommended flu shot one year, are they now part of the 99% who are not up to date? 

 

You really can't make a blanket statement like that.  When considering herd immunity, you need to look at the individual disease.  IIRC from statistics I've seen in the past, one of the vaccines adults were most likely to not be up to date on was tetanus.  This may put the individual at risk if the last tetanus vaccine they got has worn off, but it doesn't put anyone else at risk as it is not a comunicable disease.  Another vaccine that it was common to not have gotten was the shingles vaccine for older adults.  While it is possible to catch chickenpox from someone with shingles, it is not common, and so again they are mostly putting just themselves at risk.   HPV vaccine is another one many younger adult woman haven't gotten, and obviously the disease is still around and we haven't achieved herd immunity, though just the percentage of people who have been vaxed may be slowing the circulation of the disease somewhat through the herd immunity effect. 

 

That's another thing, it's not all or nothing.  Even when we haven't or can't achieve herd immunity,  the more people are immune to the disease, the less can spread it, and the slower the disease will circulate, thus decreasing the chance of exposure to it for a child too young for the vaccine, for someone whose medical condition means they can't be vaccinated, for a cancer patient whose immune system has been wiped out by measles, etc.  

 

Many adults are behind on tetanus, shingles, or gardasil, but most received the recommended vaccines as a child.  Most adults either had the MMR or are old enough that they would have gotten the diseases, and so are not behind for those.  Herd immunity seems to be working quite well for measles in particular.  I don't know if herd immunity can ever be reached for chickenpox, but if it could it would depend on the vaccination rate of younger people as most adults would have had chickenpox already.  

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#40 of 65 Old 10-13-2012, 11:38 AM
 
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Many adults are behind on tetanus, shingles, or gardasil, but most received the recommended vaccines as a child.  Most adults either had the MMR or are old enough that they would have gotten the diseases, and so are not behind for those.  Herd immunity seems to be working quite well for measles in particular.  I don't know if herd immunity can ever be reached for chickenpox, but if it could it would depend on the vaccination rate of younger people as most adults would have had chickenpox already.  

 

Many older adults who did not have measles only had one dose of MMR, when it was thought that one dose would confer immunity for a lifetime.  We now know that isn't true, so most of those are likely not immune.

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#41 of 65 Old 10-13-2012, 11:38 AM
 
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I won't even mention how vaccines are injected straight into the bloodstream, thereby completely missing the mucus membranes, which would never happen if they were to encounter the real deal. That's another thread. Good luck

 

Please name one vaccine that is injected "straight into the bloodstream."  Just one.

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#42 of 65 Old 10-13-2012, 11:56 AM
 
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Many older adults who did not have measles only had one dose of MMR, when it was thought that one dose would confer immunity for a lifetime.  We now know that isn't true, so most of those are likely not immune.

 

The second shot was added primarily to catch the 5% or so of people who didn't respond to the first shot, not due to fear that the measles vaccine would wear off.  After two shots, only 1% or 2% are still not immune compared to 5% after just one shot.  That it functions as a booster is a secondary benefit, but it wasn't the primary purpose.  

 

There is some concern that measles immunity may wane eventually since the disease is no longer circulating in the community to act as a natural booster.  Lower titers in older people supports this, but we haven't reached that point yet, and there isn't enough evidence to show that we ever will.  If we do reach the point, adding another booster to the schedule is an option, as horrified as some would be at the thought.  For now though, while there may be some people out there unknowingly at risk for measles due to not having had the second shot, that there haven't been vast measles outbreaks among vaccinated people in their thirties/forties/fifties seems to be a pretty good indication that immunity from the single measles shot is still holding up pretty well at this point.  The outbreaks we have had, the vast majority of the illness has been among the small percentage of people who are not vaccinated, not among older people whose vaccines may be wearing off.  

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nm

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#44 of 65 Old 10-14-2012, 01:09 PM
 
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Please name one vaccine that is injected "straight into the bloodstream."  Just one.

Please go back and reread my post so you have the correct information, it says muscle tissue, not bloodstream. Thanks for playing smile.gif

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#45 of 65 Old 10-14-2012, 01:17 PM
 
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Please go back and reread my post so you have the correct information, it says muscle tissue, not bloodstream. Thanks for playing smile.gif

 

Oh, you mean here, where you edited your post AFTER my response?

 

 

 

Quote:
Edited by Shanesmom - Yesterday at 1:13 pm

 

Luckily, I quoted you in my response, and I'll do it again.

 

 

 

Quote:
 
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I won't even mention how vaccines are injected straight into the bloodstream, thereby completely missing the mucus membranes, which would never happen if they were to encounter the real deal. That's another thread. Good luck

 

Please name one vaccine that is injected "straight into the bloodstream."  Just one.

 

 

So, thank YOU for playing. 

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#46 of 65 Old 10-14-2012, 01:21 PM
 
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LOL!!!

It's so easy to ruffle some people's feathers. smile.gif lets get back to the OP......

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#47 of 65 Old 10-14-2012, 01:38 PM
 
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LOL!!!
It's so easy to ruffle some people's feathers. smile.gif lets get back to the OP......

Oh, thanks for letting me in on the joke! You're so funny! :eyeroll:
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#48 of 65 Old 10-14-2012, 07:47 PM
 
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Hi Everyone,

 

Several of the posts in this thread include personal attacks, including references that someone is personally attacking. Please remember MDC's User Agreement and specifically that personal attacks are not allowed. If you post contains a personal attack, please edit it within the next 24 hours. If you have a concern after that about a post being attacking, please report it.

 

Thank you.

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#49 of 65 Old 10-15-2012, 02:00 AM
 
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"...the pharmaceutical industry has a long track record about lying about safety/efficacy of their products.  Proven fact, that."

 

 

ScienceMom, have you thoroughly investigated this issue, and how do you feel about it?
 

 

Emma - sorry I missed this question. Although it's a bit off topic, I suppose it might help the OP in his debate, so I will answer with my opinions on this. 

 

I do agree that a lot of large companies, particularly in the US have some concerning practices - pharmaceutical companies included. Having recently watched "Food INC" the food companies are amazingly worrying.  

 

 However I think vaccines are likely to be one of the places where they are least able to hid safety issues - they're used around the world with a variety of governmental and scientific safety checks. Safety records are checked. Doctors vaccinate thousands of patients and would be noticing if serious side effects were really common. In fact vaccines are (ie. have been) changed when serious side effects are found to occur too frequently (e.g. going to inactivated polio vaccine). All of this gives me confidence that the vaccines recommended today are the safest and most effective which are available, even if they are produced by large pharmaceutical companies. 

 

 I also think the amount of money involved in vaccines (for pharmaceutical companies) is too small to make it worth their while to lie and risk being found out if they actually knew a vaccine was causing serious harm. And I think too many doctors and scientists are involved to keep such a thing hidden anyway. 


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#50 of 65 Old 10-15-2012, 02:09 AM
 
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All good stuff.  Hasn't helped me come to a decision :DDDD but very good discussion.  I have a belief that I live by.  That truth, and fact, and knowledge, cannot be two sided.  If you have 2 views on one point, you have not debated enough.  Either biases **** exist, there is a miscommunication, or there is not enough information.  Unfortunately I feel that the vaccine debate is filled with much of all 3 of those.  But onward.

 

So what about the herd immunity argument?

 

http://www.parade.com/health/2012/10/07-why-so-many-parents-are-delaying-vaccines.html?fb_ref=.UHGtGncHwcM.like&fb_source=home_multiline

 

OK. So I think this is really important, and an important part of why I think parents should all consider vaccinating their children even though the current day risk of VPD to their child is very small. Having a large fraction of the population immune to certain diseases does reduce the amount of the disease circulating. That means it's OK for a small number of people to not be immune - they will likely not be exposed to the disease (so Julianna Metcalfe from that story would not have caught bacterial meningitus, nor the 5 month old who got it before the standard age of vaccination). It is my personal opinion that the community minded thing to do is to get your children vaccinated.

 

I'm not suggesting anyone who has a reasonable suspicion their child will have a major side effect need to get them vaccinated. But the the vast majority of children will not have any major side effects. And in fact it's for the children who cannot get vaccinated due to risk of side effects or other health issues that I think all parents of normally healthy children should chose for them to be vaccinated.

 

I know a lot of parents look at the risks of vaccine side effects and the risk of catching a VPD today and make the assessment that not vaccinating is right for their family. However if everyone did that the risk of VPD would rise. I just hope we don't have to get to that point before the increase in fraction of parents not vaccinating starts to stop. 


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#51 of 65 Old 10-15-2012, 02:25 PM
 
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I do agree that a lot of large companies, particularly in the US have some concerning practices - pharmaceutical companies included. Having recently watched "Food INC" the food companies are amazingly worrying.  

 

Agreed.

 

However I think vaccines are likely to be one of the places where they are least able to hid safety issues - they're used around the world with a variety of governmental and scientific safety checks.

 

They are used around the world, but I question their safety checks.  By and large IMHO vaccines are not rigorously tested.  It is considered unethical to leave children unvaccinated, so vaccinated children are not usually compared to unvaccinated children.   Most testing is done by the pharmaceutical industry itself - that is hardly reassuring as far as "conflict of interest goes."  Pharmaceutical companies sit on CDC advisory committees.  

 

Here is one example of pharmaceutical companies being charged with lying to the public about vaccines:

http://www.courthousenews.com/2012/06/27/47851.htm

 

 

Here is something from nvic. org (faq's):

 

"Large, prospective long term studies evaluating the health of infants and children given 69 doses of 16 vaccines from birth to age 18, which is the current federal recommendation, have never been conducted. There have never been studies to evaluate whether babies with a personal or family history or allergy and autoimmune disorders may be at higher risk than others for complications from use of multiple vaccines throughout childhood. There have never been large studies comparing the health of highly vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals to compare for all health outcomes and changes in immune and brain function over time."

 

 

Doctors vaccinate thousands of patients and would be noticing if serious side effects were really common.

 

"Really common" is a very subjective term.  What might be "too common" for a parent might not be "too common" for a doctor.  The parent gets to decide what is "too common"

 

I have also noticed a bit of a disturbing trend - many doctors who have come out against vaccines or are even vaccine questioning have been labeled quacks.  Some of them might - and in some cases it might be a witch hunt.  I suspect many doctors who quietly question vaccines or some aspects of vaccines keep mum about the whole thing.  This is an anti-vax website, but it does contain some quotes from doctors on professional repercussions of going against vaccines:

 

http://www.vaccinesuncensored.org/doctors.php#prof

 

 

I also think the amount of money involved in vaccines (for pharmaceutical companies) is too small to make it worth their while to lie and risk being found out if they actually knew a vaccine was causing serious harm. 

 

I never thought this argument was particularly valid.  Pharmaceutical companies are a business and as such they are in it for the money.  If they will lie or manipulate over big profit items, they will lie over smaller ones (And small by whose standards?  They still make billions of dollars - I bet their share holders are very interested in those profits. wink1.gif)


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#52 of 65 Old 10-15-2012, 02:49 PM
 
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 By and large vaccines are not rigorously tested.  It is considered unethical to leave children unvaccinated, thus vaccines are never tested against a placebo.  Vaccines are tested against other vaccines.

 

Not true.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22959989

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23032417

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22926209

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22796139

 

I'm not going to link anymore, but you get the idea.  If you do a pubmed search with the terms "vacccines and double blind placebo controlled trial" you get 1002 results.  So much for vaccines "never" being tested against a placebo.

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Originally Posted by WildKingdom View Post

 

Not true.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22959989

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23032417

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22926209

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22796139

 

I'm not going to link anymore, but you get the idea.  If you do a pubmed search with the terms "vacccines and double blind placebo controlled trial" you get 1002 results.  So much for vaccines "never" being tested against a placebo.

I removed the line in question, but really, whatev.  The rest holds.


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#54 of 65 Old 10-15-2012, 03:11 PM
 
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Please go back and reread my post so you have the correct information, it says muscle tissue, not bloodstream. Thanks for playing smile.gif

 

Oh, you mean here, where you edited your post AFTER my response?

 

 

 

Quote:
Edited by Shanesmom - Yesterday at 1:13 pm

 

Luckily, I quoted you in my response, and I'll do it again.

 

 

 

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I won't even mention how vaccines are injected straight into the bloodstream, thereby completely missing the mucus membranes, which would never happen if they were to encounter the real deal. That's another thread. Good luck

 

Please name one vaccine that is injected "straight into the bloodstream."  Just one.

 

 

So, thank YOU for playing. 


And SNAP!! 

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#55 of 65 Old 10-15-2012, 04:23 PM
 
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it was posted in another post on here..i didn't have time to find it

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Where is the 1% statistic from?  Which vaccines were counted?  If a person skips a recommended flu shot one year, are they now part of the 99% who are not up to date? 

 

You really can't make a blanket statement like that.  When considering herd immunity, you need to look at the individual disease.  IIRC from statistics I've seen in the past, one of the vaccines adults were most likely to not be up to date on was tetanus.  This may put the individual at risk if the last tetanus vaccine they got has worn off, but it doesn't put anyone else at risk as it is not a comunicable disease.  Another vaccine that it was common to not have gotten was the shingles vaccine for older adults.  While it is possible to catch chickenpox from someone with shingles, it is not common, and so again they are mostly putting just themselves at risk.   HPV vaccine is another one many younger adult woman haven't gotten, and obviously the disease is still around and we haven't achieved herd immunity, though just the percentage of people who have been vaxed may be slowing the circulation of the disease somewhat through the herd immunity effect. 

 

That's another thing, it's not all or nothing.  Even when we haven't or can't achieve herd immunity,  the more people are immune to the disease, the less can spread it, and the slower the disease will circulate, thus decreasing the chance of exposure to it for a child too young for the vaccine, for someone whose medical condition means they can't be vaccinated, for a cancer patient whose immune system has been wiped out by measles, etc.  

 

Many adults are behind on tetanus, shingles, or gardasil, but most received the recommended vaccines as a child.  Most adults either had the MMR or are old enough that they would have gotten the diseases, and so are not behind for those.  Herd immunity seems to be working quite well for measles in particular.  I don't know if herd immunity can ever be reached for chickenpox, but if it could it would depend on the vaccination rate of younger people as most adults would have had chickenpox already.  

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#56 of 65 Old 10-15-2012, 07:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by WildKingdom View Post

 

Not true.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22959989

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23032417

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22926209

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22796139

 

I'm not going to link anymore, but you get the idea.  If you do a pubmed search with the terms "vacccines and double blind placebo controlled trial" you get 1002 results.  So much for vaccines "never" being tested against a placebo.

First of all, none of those vaccines are on the current schedule.


Secondly, how do we know what "placebo" was used in those studies you linked?  Just because they CALLED it a placebo doesn't mean that it is a non-reactive, true placebo.

 

Vaccines on today's schedule have, in nearly all cases, been tested against "placebos" which were actually other vaccines, complete with antigens, adjuvants, preservatives, and other ingredients known to cause harmful effects on a small minority.  Those "placebos" were simply listed as "placebo."  The conclusions in the safety studies involving those vaccines compare side effects from the new vaccines to the "placebo."  It is understood that a true placebo would not cause side effects, so seeing a death rate from a vaccine "as compared to placebo" would wrongly indicate that a similar rate in the new vaccine would be perfectly safe.

 

It's just another example of the dishonesty and corruption of the vaccine manufacturers: "Let's twist things to make it look like we're comparing our new, unsafe vaccine with serious side effects to a placebo by actually comparing it to a vaccine with known serious side effects!  We'll just CALL the old one a placebo!  No one will know the difference!  And we can always pretend that it would be unethical to deny someone the benefits of our old unsafe vaccine!"

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#57 of 65 Old 10-16-2012, 01:59 AM
 
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Vaccines on today's schedule have, in nearly all cases, been tested against "placebos" which were actually other vaccines, complete with antigens, adjuvants, preservatives, and other ingredients known to cause harmful effects on a small minority.  Those "placebos" were simply listed as "placebo."  The conclusions in the safety studies involving those vaccines compare side effects from the new vaccines to the "placebo."  It is understood that a true placebo would not cause side effects, so seeing a death rate from a vaccine "as compared to placebo" would wrongly indicate that a similar rate in the new vaccine would be perfectly safe.

 

The definition of a placebo is something which has no positive medical effect, but makes the patient think they (could) have had the medicine (or preventative in the case of a vaccine). So in order for something to be a placebo in a vaccination trial it has to be injected like a vaccine. 

 

There was a trial which was mentioned in the free online vaccine course I did which I keep meaning to read more about. It was done in 1950s through the March of Dimes. My notes say: 

 

 

Salk trial in 1950s (through March of Dimes)

420,000 children got polio vaccine (thimerosol preserved)

200,000 children got placebo (with thimerosol but not attenuated polio)

1.2 million children in the control sample not innoculated

 

I keep meaning to look up if the groups which got the vaccination have been studied relative to the control to see if there is any difference in their health (other than polio). That would be a great long baseline for safety study of thimerosol it seems to me. Anyone know of anything? 


Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

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#58 of 65 Old 10-16-2012, 05:02 AM
 
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First of all, none of those vaccines are on the current schedule.


Secondly, how do we know what "placebo" was used in those studies you linked?  Just because they CALLED it a placebo doesn't mean that it is a non-reactive, true placebo.

 

Vaccines on today's schedule have, in nearly all cases, been tested against "placebos" which were actually other vaccines, complete with antigens, adjuvants, preservatives, and other ingredients known to cause harmful effects on a small minority.  Those "placebos" were simply listed as "placebo."  The conclusions in the safety studies involving those vaccines compare side effects from the new vaccines to the "placebo."  It is understood that a true placebo would not cause side effects, so seeing a death rate from a vaccine "as compared to placebo" would wrongly indicate that a similar rate in the new vaccine would be perfectly safe.

 

It's just another example of the dishonesty and corruption of the vaccine manufacturers: "Let's twist things to make it look like we're comparing our new, unsafe vaccine with serious side effects to a placebo by actually comparing it to a vaccine with known serious side effects!  We'll just CALL the old one a placebo!  No one will know the difference!  And we can always pretend that it would be unethical to deny someone the benefits of our old unsafe vaccine!"

 

 

A placebo is an inactive substance, by definition.  If they call it a placebo, it's a placebo.  What do you want them to test it against?  Nothing?  Then it's not a double blind study.

 

Oh, here's a study testing the rotavirus vaccine against a placebo.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16394298

 

Here's another. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22520136  I found 195.

 

Here's the Cochrane review for the haemophilus vaccine- it shows 6 studies that were either randomized placebo studies or no vaccine at all.  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17443509

 

HPV vaccine:  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22433961

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21860731

 64 randomized placebo controlled trials for the HPV vaccine.  There might be more.  That was just my lazy, 8 AM 2 second pubmed search.

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#59 of 65 Old 10-16-2012, 10:15 AM
 
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I think there are 2 issues being discussed here. The definition of a placebo and the safety of whatever placebo is used. I think many people feel a true placebo is something like saline. By definition placebos can be all kinds of things besides saline. So we need to be clear on what is being discussed.


If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#60 of 65 Old 10-16-2012, 10:46 AM
 
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Well, it really doesn't matter what people "feel" a placebo is. A placebo has a definition that I posted above.
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