Mothering Forums

Mothering Forums (http://www.mothering.com/forum/)
-   Vaccinations (http://www.mothering.com/forum/47-vaccinations/)
-   -   Measles (http://www.mothering.com/forum/47-vaccinations/1365523-measles.html)

tonttu 10-11-2012 03:07 PM

http://www.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/content/Handbook-measles 

 

Stumbled across this in a forum , very interesting read !  

Especially for those , who still feel , measles is simply a harmless childhood illness ! 


prosciencemum 10-12-2012 07:01 AM

There's also two case studies of what can happen with measles at this website: http://shotbyshot.org/story-gallery/


Marnica 10-12-2012 11:29 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonttu View Post

http://www.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/content/Handbook-measles 

 

Stumbled across this in a forum , very interesting read !  

Especially for those , who still feel , measles is simply a harmless childhood illness ! 

 link does not work


tonttu 10-12-2012 12:34 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marnica View Post

 link does not work


Strange , it did yesterday ! But if you click on the link , and then when it pops up , go to " Diseases & Programmes A-Z " , then " Measles comes up , click that and you can read it .

Well worth it !


beckybird 10-12-2012 01:54 PM

Is this the one?

http://www.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/immunise-measles


Marnica 10-12-2012 01:58 PM

Quote:

 yes it seems to be. This info is readily avalaible on the CDC website as well. Not sure why this is so interesting. Yes Measles can be serious - so can chicken pox, so can the flu so can the common cold in certain populations-  however for the vast majority of healthy well nourished children, it is not.


tonttu 10-12-2012 04:13 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

There's also two case studies of what can happen with measles at this website: http://shotbyshot.org/story-gallery/


Oh yeah , that´s a good one , too !


kathymuggle 10-13-2012 04:39 PM

I am probably an exception for a non-vaxxer, but I do find measles worrisome.

 

http://www.patient.co.uk/doctor/Measles.htm

 

"Measles is the archetypal childhood infection - whilst self-limiting in most, it is not a trivial disease, with complications in about 10% requiring hospital admission, and fatality rates of 1 per 5,000 in the UK."

 

The 1/5000 rate is better than I had thought, but still high.  The hospital admission rate is high. Measles is very contagious.

 

 

That being said,  measles is only available as part of MMR.  I do not think mumps and rubella should be part of the standard infant schedule  (but rather available to those who choose).  It is beyond irking that if I wanted the measles vax, I would have to accept the mumps and rubella as well.  Grrrr...


Taximom5 10-13-2012 04:50 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

I am probably an exception for a non-vaxxer, but I do find measles worrisome.

It is highly contagious and 1/1000 mortality rate is too high for my comfort.

That being said,  measles is only available as part of MMR.  I do not think mumps and rubella should be part of the standard infant schedule - but rather available to those who choose).  It is beyond irking that if I wanted the measles vax, I would have to accept the mumps and rubella as well.  Grrrr...

We don't know if children who were part of that 1/1000 mortality rate is because those children may have been exposed to measles from another child who just got the live-virus vaccine, or if their immune system was screwed up by other vaccines (which is increasingly acknowledged as an unintentional "side effect" from vaccines), or if they had vitamin deficiencies (vitamin A deficiency, in particular, is known to be linked with measles complications), or if they had an underlying health issue that predisposed them to measles complications.

We also don't know if reporting was skewed, the way it is for "flu deaths," to make it look much worse than it really was.

kathymuggle 10-13-2012 05:39 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post


We don't know if children who were part of that 1/1000 mortality rate is because those children may have been exposed to measles from another child who just got the live-virus vaccine, or if their immune system was screwed up by other vaccines (which is increasingly acknowledged as an unintentional "side effect" from vaccines), or if they had vitamin deficiencies (vitamin A deficiency, in particular, is known to be linked with measles complications), or if they had an underlying health issue that predisposed them to measles complications.
We also don't know if reporting was skewed, the way it is for "flu deaths," to make it look much worse than it really was.

Hey Taxi,

 

I edited my post from 1/1000 to 1/5000 based on stats out of the UK.  I figured I would look at a modern country that actually deals with measles, as opposed to the CDC.  Seeing as the USA has only averaged around 60 cases of measles in the last goodness knows how many years, I figured their stats would be very old.  

 

CDC stats:

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/G/cases&deaths.pdf

 

UK stats:

http://www.hpa.org.uk/web/HPAweb&HPAwebStandard/HPAweb_C/1195733833790

 

This article said there were 9 deaths out of 26 000 cases of measles in Europe in 2011 - or 1/2888.  

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-15999492


Mirzam 10-13-2012 06:09 PM

2 Attachment(s)

I think it the mortality rate would be far less than 1 in 5000, if you take a look at the logarithimic scale by Clifford ******: Measles Mortality England and Wales 1901 to 1999, the rate would be less than 1 in 55 million by 2007 if no one was vaccinated.

 

 

 

The mortality rate in the US by 2010, if no one was vaccinated would have been 1 in 25 million, if you add a trend line to Englehandt SF, Halsey NA, Eddins DL, Hinman AR. Measles mortalilty in the United States 1971 - 1975. Am J Public Health 1980;70:1166-1169.

 

 

You can see the full size (readable) graphs HERE.


prosciencemum 10-15-2012 03:40 AM

I found slightly different graphs on wikipedia page about measles: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measles

They have a different y-axis - total number of cases in thousands in both, while the ones posted on Vaxtruth show cases+deaths per 100,000 population (US graph) and deaths/55 million (UK one). They also mark on them when the vaccine was introduced (which is where you see the big drop in the US trend that taximom posted). 

 

This is the one for the US.

 

 

 

 

This is the one for the UK/Wales: 

 

 

 

There's an interesting blog with a bunch of history of measles here too. http://www.iayork.com/Reflections/?cat=67

 

They discuss how the death rate dropped from 1900-1940 due to the introduction of anti-biotics, and improvements in housing conditions, while the case rate remained about level (also compare the solid to the dashed line in the graph taximom posted for the US).

 

A quote from the blog: 

 

 

Quote:
measles was just as common in 1955 as it was in 1910, almost every child got it, the difference was that in 1950 fewer than 1 in a thousand cases died, whereas in 1910 somewhere between 1% and 30% of the cases died — over a hundred times higher.

 

They go on to discuss that the case rate only dropped significantly on the introduction of the vaccine. And that the death/case rate was flattening out, so the downward trend of death rates would not continue without the vaccine being introduced: 

 

 

 

Quote:
By 1953-ish, a decade before the vaccine was introduced, measles death rates had pretty much flattened out, both in England and in the USA.

savithny 10-19-2012 09:20 AM

Is death the only thing that matters?    Because even as death rates from measles dropped due to better care for acute complications such as pneumonia, the case rate stayed the same and so did the rate of complications such as measles encephalitis.  It was still occurring at about 1 in 1000 cases at the time of vaccine introduction.   Sure, it only killed about 20% of patients outright, but it also caused permanent brain injuries in some patients who survived.


tonttu 11-01-2012 02:03 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by savithny View Post

Is death the only thing that matters?    Because even as death rates from measles dropped due to better care for acute complications such as pneumonia, the case rate stayed the same and so did the rate of complications such as measles encephalitis.  It was still occurring at about 1 in 1000 cases at the time of vaccine introduction.   Sure, it only killed about 20% of patients outright, but it also caused permanent brain injuries in some patients who survived.


A very valid point and one to consider , when somebody is trying to decide whether to vax or not .

Especially since there have been no deaths from the vax and tbh , I´d rather take my chances with the miniscule , almost anecdotal risk of having some side effects , which would most likely not be permanent and very mild , than take the very real and very likely chance of suffering permanant damage from the " wild " form 


Taximom5 11-01-2012 02:17 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonttu View Post


A very valid point and one to consider , when somebody is trying to decide whether to vax or not .
Especially since there have been no deaths from the vax and tbh , I´d rather take my chances with the miniscule , almost anecdotal risk of having some side effects , which would most likely not be permanent and very mild , than take the very real and very likely chance of suffering permanant damage from the " wild " form 

I think the families of the 2000 or so who were compensated by the US government for MMR-induced brain damage would be rightfully upset by the demeaning and inaccurate way you've painted their risk.

So would the many thousands of families whose children had the same seizure reaction and resultant brain damage from the MMR and other vaccines, but who weren't savvy enough to avoid the diagnosis of autism, which meant that their case was automatically thrown out.

Of course, we don't hear in the US that the Italian government recently admitted that a car of autism WAS caused by the MMR.

And "a very likely chance of suffering from permanent damage from the wild form?" That's just downright inaccurate.

We now know that vitamin A deficiency is an important factor in measles complications. That's very easy to deal with.

We also know from Merck's website that a significant fraction (~25%) of post-pubescent females will develop arthritis/arthralgia from the MMR. We don't know what kind of joint pain and/or other autoimmune disorders female babies may develop from the MMR, because they can't communicate well enough to tell us.

prosciencemum 11-01-2012 02:53 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post


I think the families of the 2000 or so who were compensated by the US government for MMR-induced brain damage would be rightfully upset by the demeaning and inaccurate way you've painted their risk.
 

 

This seems to be demonstrating a misunderstanding of what tontuu means by risk. Risk is a combination of severity and frequency. Vaccine reactions occur - no-one denys that, and people can even be compensated for it (although their is a difference between court evidence and science, but we won't go into that here). This still doesn't mean it happens frequently and is something most of us should be worried about.

 

The fact is the measles vaccination program saves lives (see the diagrams) and does more good than bad (in my assessment of all the evidence and research I've looked at). 


tonttu 11-01-2012 04:15 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

 

This seems to be demonstrating a misunderstanding of what tontuu means by risk. Risk is a combination of severity and frequency. Vaccine reactions occur - no-one denys that, and people can even be compensated for it (although their is a difference between court evidence and science, but we won't go into that here). This still doesn't mean it happens frequently and is something most of us should be worried about.

 

The fact is the measles vaccination program saves lives (see the diagrams) and does more good than bad (in my assessment of all the evidence and research I've looked at). 


Thank you ! 

And for those of us referring to the case , where an Italian court ruled in favor of the parents , I have to say , that the conclusion stated " irreversible damage due to vaccine " but it did NOT say " caused autism " .


savithny 11-02-2012 08:53 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post


I think the families of the 2000 or so who were compensated by the US government for MMR-induced brain damage would be rightfully upset by the demeaning and inaccurate way you've painted their risk.
So would the many thousands of families whose children had the same seizure reaction and resultant brain damage from the MMR and other vaccines, but who weren't savvy enough to avoid the diagnosis of autism, which meant that their case was automatically thrown out.
Of course, we don't hear in the US that the Italian government recently admitted that a car of autism WAS caused by the MMR.
And "a very likely chance of suffering from permanent damage from the wild form?" That's just downright inaccurate.
We now know that vitamin A deficiency is an important factor in measles complications. That's very easy to deal with.
We also know from Merck's website that a significant fraction (~25%) of post-pubescent females will develop arthritis/arthralgia from the MMR. We don't know what kind of joint pain and/or other autoimmune disorders female babies may develop from the MMR, because they can't communicate well enough to tell us.

 

Do you understand that live natural wild measles infections do the same thing?   Measles attacks the brain, the nervous system, and the immune system.   It specifically shuts down parts of the immune system, in many cases for years.  

 

By only looking at death rates, you skip the fact that naturally acquired measles carries risks of a set of life-altering consequences.   One of the symptoms of Measles Encephalitis?  "Acquired mutism."  Funny, that sounds an awful lot like those "cases of autism caused by MMR.'   Except that the rate of measles encephalitis is significantly higher than the rate of vaccine reactions.

 

In a world where every child got wild measles naturally, there would be far more people with lifelong disabilities caused by measles.    More people, even, than you are claiming are damaged by the vaccine. 


tonttu 11-02-2012 02:38 PM

Millions of people , MIL-LI-ONS are getting vaccinated , and there is a tiny , miniscule precentage of people that may suffer more or less severe side effects to it .

Compared to countless lives , that were saved by vaccinating !

The reactions to vaccines , that anti-vaxers like to post on their websites ( and yes , I have read many of them , b/c I like to know , what I am talking about ) can happen just as much and in the vast majority of cases more so , if you get the wild form of the disease . 

You may not have seen some of those VPD´s , but I have and there is NO WAY IN HELL I would put myself or my kids through any of them ! 

There has been so much research done on all the bs about vaccines causing autism , which has long been proven to be WRONG , AB-SO-LU-TE-LY WRONG ! 

Vaccines do not cause autism , never have !

And most of the preservatives in vaccines nowadays are in such a low dosage , that eating a can of tuna will give you more of them than a shot you will only receive every 10 or so years  

Phentanole is in almost every living organism , a plain pear contains phentanole , are you going to stop eating them ?

Yes , there is the occasional side-effect , but truthfully , if somebody reacts so strongly to a vaccine , then going through the real thing would most likely kill them !

And the only reason , the ONLY REASON why we fortunately don´t see many of those horrible , debilitating , life-threatening illnesses anymore, is because most of us are smart enough to vax . 

However all it takes is enough people to not see the reason in hard scientific proof , and boom , they are back on a rise , as we see with all the cases of WC ! 

Which is not caused by vaxers btw , if you like to see proof , I´d be more than happy to provide some links !


emmy526 11-02-2012 03:02 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonttu View Post

Millions of people , MIL-LI-ONS are getting vaccinated , and there is a tiny , miniscule precentage of people that may suffer more or less severe side effects to it .

Compared to countless lives , that were saved by vaccinating !

The reactions to vaccines , that anti-vaxers like to post on their websites ( and yes , I have read many of them , b/c I like to know , what I am talking about ) can happen just as much and in the vast majority of cases more so , if you get the wild form of the disease . 

You may not have seen some of those VPD´s , but I have and there is NO WAY IN HELL I would put myself or my kids through any of them ! 

There has been so much research done on all the bs about vaccines causing autism , which has long been proven to be WRONG , AB-SO-LU-TE-LY WRONG ! 

Vaccines do not cause autism , never have !

And most of the preservatives in vaccines nowadays are in such a low dosage , that eating a can of tuna will give you more of them than a shot you will only receive every 10 or so years  

Phentanole is in almost every living organism , a plain pear contains phentanole , are you going to stop eating them ?

Yes , there is the occasional side-effect , but truthfully , if somebody reacts so strongly to a vaccine , then going through the real thing would most likely kill them !

And the only reason , the ONLY REASON why we fortunately don´t see many of those horrible , debilitating , life-threatening illnesses anymore, is because most of us are smart enough to vax . 

However all it takes is enough people to not see the reason in hard scientific proof , and boom , they are back on a rise , as we see with all the cases of WC ! 

Which is not caused by vaxers btw , if you like to see proof , I´d be more than happy to provide some links !

have you personally interviewed the millions of people in the world that have recieved this vax and did you examine them yourself to determine no reaction occurred?  

And, vaxers aren't responsible for the current WC epidemic,  the failure of the vaccine is.  


kathymuggle 11-02-2012 03:50 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonttu View Post

Yes , there is the occasional side-effect , but truthfully , if somebody reacts so strongly to a vaccine , then going through the real thing would most likely kill them !

 

banghead.gif

 

There is no way you can know this and I doubt it is true


Taximom5 11-02-2012 06:55 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonttu View Post

Yes , there is the occasional side-effect , but truthfully , if somebody reacts so strongly to a vaccine , then going through the real thing would most likely kill them !

This is a totally wrong assumption. Complications from vaccine reactions are unrelated to complications from diseases.

In most cases of complications from vaccine reaction, it's not the antigen in the vaccine causing the reaction, it's the combination of ingredients, particularly the adjuvant and preservative, if there is one.

In my own case, I had unremarkable, relatively mild cases of mumps, measles, and chicken pox, but had severe reactions to the MMR, DPT, and hep B vaccines. I am rarely ill, have had only a couple of very mild cases of flu in my life, but had severe reactions to the flu shot (before I read the Cochrane Collaborative's assessment of current data that the flu shot is ineffective).

My children have followed a similar pattern.

We all had h1n1 (medically documented) that we caught from a family who was staying with us. They'd been vaxed for it. They had severe cases. We were not vaxed for it. We had extremely mild cases.

There are no studies supporting your assertion that "truthfully , if somebody reacts so strongly to a vaccine , then going through the real thing would most likely kill them !", but there is plenty of anecdotal evidence to the contrary. There are also studies showing that vaccine adjuvants are linked with development of autoimmune disorders, as well as many case reports on PubMed of vaccine-induced lupus, rheumatoid arthritis, intestinal disorders, etc.

emmy526 11-03-2012 05:00 AM

You had mumps and measles and they still gave the MMR vaccine?  Did you think that having the disease already somehow triggered a worse reaction to the vaccine?  

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post


This is a totally wrong assumption. Complications from vaccine reactions are unrelated to complications from diseases.
In most cases of complications from vaccine reaction, it's not the antigen in the vaccine causing the reaction, it's the combination of ingredients, particularly the adjuvant and preservative, if there is one.
In my own case, I had unremarkable, relatively mild cases of mumps, measles, and chicken pox, but had severe reactions to the MMR, DPT, and hep B vaccines. I am rarely ill, have had only a couple of very mild cases of flu in my life, but had severe reactions to the flu shot (before I read the Cochrane Collaborative's assessment of current data that the flu shot is ineffective).
My children have followed a similar pattern.
We all had h1n1 (medically documented) that we caught from a family who was staying with us. They'd been vaxed for it. They had severe cases. We were not vaxed for it. We had extremely mild cases.
There are no studies supporting your assertion that "truthfully , if somebody reacts so strongly to a vaccine , then going through the real thing would most likely kill them !", but there is plenty of anecdotal evidence to the contrary. There are also studies showing that vaccine adjuvants are linked with development of autoimmune disorders, as well as many case reports on PubMed of vaccine-induced lupus, rheumatoid arthritis, intestinal disorders, etc.

tonttu 11-03-2012 05:33 AM

informedparentsofvaccinatedchildren.wordpress.com/2012/06/20/effects-of-disease-versus-possible-side-effects-of-vaccine

 

I rest my case ! 


emmy526 11-03-2012 05:44 AM

same info as what's already out there and posted around here on MDC, just compiled into a different website


tonttu 11-03-2012 05:53 AM

Oh , okay , didn´t see it ! wink1.gif


Taximom5 11-03-2012 10:56 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by emmy526 View Post

You had mumps and measles and they still gave the MMR vaccine?  Did you think that having the disease already somehow triggered a worse reaction to the vaccine?  

This was back when nobody ever thought of testing for titers. I was required to go to mainland China for work, and my employer presented the government's vaccination recommendation as though it were an employment requirement. I couldn't furnish proof that I'd had the diseases, and was told I would have to have the vaccines, they couldn't possibly hurt, and would probably be a good idea even if I'd had the diseases.

Sadly, I believed them.

I was also given DTP, hep B (was supposed to be hep A but they didn't have any, so they suggested hep B) and gamma globulin.

I have no idea whether having had the diseases worsened my response to the vaccine. However, I had a documented history of Thimerosal allergy (from back when it was in contact lens solutions--and it's STILL in prescription eye drops), had told every doctor who ever treated me, but none of them had any idea that it was in 3 of those 4 vaccines I was given.

This was before most of us had access to the Internet, so there was no way for me to research it myself at the time.


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:18 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.