Forced Vaccinations: Stepping into Eugenics? - Page 5 - Mothering Forums
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#121 of 251 Old 10-29-2012, 05:29 AM
 
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Ftr, my motivation for vaccinating is to protect myself and my family, not the greater good. That's just bonus.
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#122 of 251 Old 10-29-2012, 09:31 AM
 
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In Maryland a judge order all children that were not vaccinated be brought in and forcefully vaccinated. There were no exceptions allowed. Every child in the town was court ordered to be vaccinated.
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#123 of 251 Old 10-29-2012, 09:40 AM
 
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In Maryland a judge order all children that were not vaccinated be brought in and forcefully vaccinated. There were no exceptions allowed. Every child in the town was court ordered to be vaccinated.

Unless they provided a legal exemption, which I doubt few of the parents knew about.

 

#NoShotsNoSchoolNotTrue


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#124 of 251 Old 10-29-2012, 09:42 AM
 
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Nope. Sorry. Still not forced vaccination.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/WaterCooler/story?id=3880578&page=1

 

Here a judge order parents to vaccinate or go to jail. Like in Nazi Germany.

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#125 of 251 Old 10-29-2012, 09:44 AM
 
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Unless they provided a legal exemption, which I doubt few of the parents knew about.

 

#NoShotsNoSchoolNotTrue

Sorry, wrong article. I am having trouble finding it now. But 800 kids were forced to, even with religious exemptions. If you had an allergic reaction was the only way to not get one but you had to get the others. It reminded me of Nazi germany. I will see if I can find it again. Here it is.

 

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/can-the-state-force-vaccinations-on-your-child.html

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#126 of 251 Old 10-29-2012, 09:58 AM
 
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For anyone who thinks vaccines are not used to control population, here is the majority owner of a vaccine company saying that we can "reduce the worlds population by 10-15% with vaccines and health care". But this is the same person who gives the OPV to third world countries knowing that it was banned in the U.S. because it is not safe.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WQtRI7A064

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#127 of 251 Old 10-29-2012, 10:39 AM
 
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From the buzzle article about the "forced vaccination": "The court set a date by which parents would need to either vaccinate their children or provide proof they already had. They could also provide proof of or file an exemption, something Maryland law allows for."

So apparently exemptions were allowed.
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#128 of 251 Old 10-29-2012, 11:03 AM
 
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"In addition, the parents were not being informed of the Maryland state exemption laws, which allow for families to refuse vaccinations on the basis of religious beliefs or medical contraindications."

 

They did not know. Thanks to the tireless efforts of vaccine awareness groups, this is slowly changing.


               "Those who are able to see beyond the shadows and lies of their culture will never be understood, let alone believed, by the masses."

                ~Captain Hammer (j/k, it was Plato)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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#129 of 251 Old 10-29-2012, 11:14 AM
 
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That's according to NVIC
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#130 of 251 Old 10-29-2012, 12:10 PM
 
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"In addition, the parents were not being informed of the Maryland state exemption laws, which allow for families to refuse vaccinations on the basis of religious beliefs or medical contraindications.

Whether or not the wording of the letter made it clear that the courthouse vaccinations were optional, the majority of parents interviewed after leaving the building were not aware that this was the case.

The incident left many parents and organizations concerned about civil liberties."
 

 

From the Buzzle article, not a quote from an NVIC spokesperson (not that that would make it automatically wrong)


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#131 of 251 Old 10-29-2012, 12:12 PM
 
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No, it's from the NVIC portion. The author is reporting what NVIC told them.

I agree, though, it's shocking that that many parents avoided vaccination without educating themselves about it.
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#132 of 251 Old 10-29-2012, 12:23 PM
 
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No, it's from the NVIC portion. The author is reporting what NVIC told them.
I agree, though, it's shocking that that many parents avoided vaccination without educating themselves about it.

 

I disagree.  Most of the stuff Fisher said was in quotes, or said such exciting things as "Fisher said."
 
I imagine many parents avoid vaccination because they have educated themselves about it.
 
 
Here is another quote from the Buzz article - so even if we will not agree on whether NVIC said the quote in question (and if it matters that NVIC said it) I am going to assume we both accept the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons as a credible source?
 
 
"The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons drafted a letter to the governor of Maryland, Martin O'Malley, which was dated November 18th, expressing their concern over the methods used to get parents to comply. The letter read, in part, "The heavy-handed 'vaccine roundup' instigated by [state's attorney] Mr. Ivey obliterates informed consent and parental rights. Vaccines can and do save lives. But this episode has demonstrated that we must take a much more deliberative approach in crafting and enforcing vaccine policy without sacrificing the rights and liberties of individuals and families."


 

Another link on the Maryland vax story:
 
ETA:  this is an old story (2007). I have never heard it before, though - nasty stuff.

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#133 of 251 Old 10-29-2012, 01:24 PM
 
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No, we don't both accept them as a reliable source.
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#134 of 251 Old 10-29-2012, 01:25 PM
 
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I'm not a huge fan of how this was done either, I don't like the idea of vaccinating outside of a primary doctor situation with a decent health history. But to call this forced vaccination where exemptions were not allowed is inaccurate.
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#135 of 251 Old 10-29-2012, 01:32 PM
 
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From the wiki page on aaps:

"The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS) is a politically conservative non-profit association founded in 1943 to "fight socialized medicine and to fight the government takeover of medicine."[1][2] The group was reported to have approximately 4,000 members in 2005, and 3,000 in 2011.[1][3] Many of the political and scientific viewpoints advocated by AAPS are considered extreme or dubious by other medical groups.[1] Notable members include Ron Paul and John Cooksey;[4] the executive director is Jane Orient, a member of the Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine."

I don't expect that to change anyone's mind, but just a glimpse into how they're viewed.
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#136 of 251 Old 10-29-2012, 01:40 PM
 
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No, we don't both accept them as a reliable source.

This could get argumentative, but I said credible source.  I can find someone a credible source and still not agree with their conslcusion.   I think the CDC is very credible source - and I often disagree with their conclusions.  

 

You cannot know whether or not I find the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons credible, you are just making assumptions….

 

…and over and out, before we get accused of infighting.


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#137 of 251 Old 10-29-2012, 01:41 PM
 
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I'm not making assumptions. You said you assume we both find them to be a credible (or reliable, whatever) source. I was letting you know that was not the case, and why I don't find the, to be credible. That's all. Your opinion of the, doesn't enter into it.
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#138 of 251 Old 10-29-2012, 01:42 PM
 
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From the wiki page on aaps:

"The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS) is a politically conservative non-profit association founded in 1943 to "fight socialized medicine and to fight the government takeover of medicine."[1][2] The group was reported to have approximately 4,000 members in 2005, and 3,000 in 2011.[1][3] Many of the political and scientific viewpoints advocated by AAPS are considered extreme or dubious by other medical groups.[1] Notable members include Ron Paul and John Cooksey;[4] the executive director is Jane Orient, a member of the Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine."

I don't expect that to change anyone's mind, but just a glimpse into how they're viewed.

...by the writer of their wiki submission. We all know how the pharma industry controls what is published on Wikipedia, especially when it comes to vaccination. Any dissenting voice is quickly edited. 


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#139 of 251 Old 10-29-2012, 01:46 PM
 
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Ok, well how about the fact that they called Medicare and social security immoral and and evil? Again, I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about them, just point out that no, they are not widely accepted as a credible source. They are more a political organization than a scientific one and quite biased, at that.

Eta:are we seriously arguing about whether or not some people don't view aaps as a credible source? Not even whether or not they are but just whether or not they're widely viewed that way? Really?
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#140 of 251 Old 10-29-2012, 02:04 PM
 
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The point is Wikipedia is a highly controlled source and should therefore be taken as such. Personally, I don't give a s#!$ about the AAPS, they are clearly a very conservative/libertarian group (not saying that is a bad thing). However, I tend to agree with their sentiments on forced vaccination. They even said vaccines were good.

 

 

 

Quote:
"The heavy-handed 'vaccine roundup' instigated by [state's attorney] Mr. Ivey obliterates informed consent and parental rights. Vaccines can and do save lives. But this episode has demonstrated that we must take a much more deliberative approach in crafting and enforcing vaccine policy without sacrificing the rights and liberties of individuals and families."
 

 

 

 

Rrrrrachel, all you are trying to do is undermine their statement by shooting the messenger. A tactic the vocal pro-vax lobby seems to have to revert to all too often. So you believe the actions of the State of Maryland, forcing parents to vaccinate was acceptable? You don't believe parents should have the right to choose whether to vaccinate or not?


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#141 of 251 Old 10-29-2012, 02:43 PM
 
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I'm not making assumptions. You said you assume we both find them to be a credible (or reliable, whatever) source. I was letting you know that was not the case, and why I don't find the, to be credible. That's all. Your opinion of the, doesn't enter into it.

Mea culpa, rachel. I did not read the wiki thing you posted when I hit post last time.

 

If a person is not aware of exemptions, and those in power withhold that information from them, is that mandatory vaccines?   


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#142 of 251 Old 10-29-2012, 02:46 PM
 
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I've already addressed how I feel about what happened in Maryland. No one was forced, though, they were able to submit or file for an exemption.

I was responding specifically to Kathy's assumption that we all see aaps as credible. I don't. I said why. I don't care if you agree I was only Sharing my point of view, not trying to change anyone else's.

And OF COURSE the credibility of the messenger influences the credibility of the message. It's not the be all end all, but it absolutely has an influence.
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#143 of 251 Old 10-29-2012, 02:47 PM
 
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I don't see any evidence information on exemptions was withheld. I think parents who choose not to vaccinate have some responsibility to educate themselves on what's involved.
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#144 of 251 Old 10-29-2012, 02:49 PM
 
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I don't see any evidence information on exemptions was withheld. I think parents who choose not to vaccinate have some responsibility to educate themselves on what's involved.

Did they tell them?

 

You could argue  it is "buyer beware" but that is pretty scuzzy when it comes to such a serious issue involving children.


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#145 of 251 Old 10-29-2012, 02:50 PM
 
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"In addition, the parents were not being informed of the Maryland state exemption laws, which allow for families to refuse vaccinations on the basis of religious beliefs or medical contraindications."
 

from an earlier post.


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#146 of 251 Old 10-29-2012, 02:53 PM
 
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Again, according to NVIC.

I won't get into the semantics of what I think withheld means.
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#147 of 251 Old 10-29-2012, 03:06 PM
 
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Not just NVIC:

 

"Among them was Charles Frohman, who represented the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons, a group opposing mandated vaccinations. Mr. Frohman said the county should have done more to make parents aware of their options. “Reports are that very few folks are really hearing about exemptions,” he said"

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/18/us/18vaccine.html

 

I know you do not like them, but do you actually think they are making this up?  And NVIC? (although I think whether or not buzz said this or NVIC is up for debate)

 

btw - I do not think "withheld" is a semantics issue.  It might (I don't really know) be legal for doctors , schools and health departments to not disclose exemptions exist - but it is unethical.  It is preying on ignorance or lack of availability to access resources in a health matter that affects children.  It is not in keeping with informed consent - it is stacking the deck so the outcome you (general you) want is more likely to be achieved.


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#148 of 251 Old 10-29-2012, 03:10 PM
 
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That's a very vague comment and I don't think it's the same at all as saying the information was withheld. I think someone from the aaps has a political agenda and is going to put a spin on things, yes.
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#149 of 251 Old 10-29-2012, 03:13 PM
 
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Here's an interesting tidbit from the nytimes article I was just readin (not sure if its the same one)

"The county winnowed the number of children needing documentation to 1,111 as of Thursday, from 2,643 in October. By the end of Saturday officials believe that number was 939, with 101 children receiving shots and 71 having their records updated."

So 101 out of 1111 got vaccinated tht day. Hardly seems like much force was involved.
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#150 of 251 Old 10-29-2012, 03:36 PM
 
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What about the fact that it has been admitted that vaccines are used to reduce the population? There is no denying or arguing what " we can reduce the worlds population by 10-15% with vaccines" means. And remember Bill Gates has said we need to reduce the world population to around 1 billion people. So how do they intend on reducing the population that much? They would have to do it secretly, without people knowing.
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Vaccinations A Thoughtful Parents Guide How To Make Safe Sensible Decisions About The Risks Benefits , Vaccines , Vaccinations , The Vaccine Controversy The History Use And Safety Of Vaccinations , Saying No To Vaccines , Dont Vaccinate Before You Educate

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