Forced Vaccinations: Stepping into Eugenics? - Page 7 - Mothering Forums

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#181 of 251 Old 11-04-2012, 01:50 PM
 
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double post format error


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#182 of 251 Old 11-04-2012, 01:51 PM
 
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i requested a link. Rrrrachel said she provided a link.

 She clearly referred to "the buzzle article", which is linked in post #125.


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#183 of 251 Old 11-04-2012, 01:52 PM
 
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Yeah sorry I guess I provided a reference to a link already posted. Not a link.

I'm not sure what all the exemption options are in Maryland, but I would start with find a new doctor.
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 She clearly referred to "the buzzle article", which is linked in post #125.

That issue here is whether the parents were ever INFORMED that they had the option of seeking a medical exemption.

The buzzle article does not say that the letters to the parents informed them of this option. The way it is worded does not suggest that the letters contained this information.
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#185 of 251 Old 11-04-2012, 01:55 PM
 
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Please explain what working parents with no family support are supposed to do if they believe that their child's health would be at risk if they were to be vaccinated, but if their doctor is in error--and remember, physician error is common--and refuses to write a medical exemption?
Please give us a reasonable explanation of exactly what the parents' options are.

 

Maryland also allows religious exemptions.  Whether a parent should claim a religious exemption because s/he cannot get a medical exemption is a matter of debate, but many non-vaxers do consider it an option.


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#186 of 251 Old 11-04-2012, 01:58 PM
 
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Yeah sorry I guess I provided a reference to a link already posted. Not a link.
I'm not sure what all the exemption options are in Maryland, but I would start with find a new doctor.

For many parents, this is not a reasonable option, due to insurance limitations as well as the fact that parents might not be able to afford multiple copays--or paying out of pocket--as they see doctor after doctor in hopes of finding one who will go against what (s)he was taught in medical school by professors who were paid "consultants" with pharmaceutical companies.
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#187 of 251 Old 11-04-2012, 02:01 PM
 
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So what's the acceptable amount of inconvenience to go through in order to insure your child's well being? I'm just curious.

I already did the whole "I make a suggestion and it gets shot down on te grounds that it might not work for someone somewhere" thing. You have options. It was not forced vaccination. I have no interest in rehashing it again. Feel free to re read my posts from earlier.
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#188 of 251 Old 11-04-2012, 02:25 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Either that, or it's selecting "against" those who are prone to vaccine reactions that we don't know about. Which, since we don't know about it until it happens, hardly is on the level of eugenics targeted at actual visible groups. 

 

I really, really don't think vaccine manufacturers or the CDC or the government are sitting there rubbing their hands together and saying "oh, goody, we will cleanse the population of all people who might react to vaccines, even though we don't know who they are". But then I don't buy the vast conspiracy notion to begin with. How many people would have to be involved in a conspiracy to lead to widespread vaccination if vaccines weren't really safe and effective on a population level? The mind boggles. 

i would think a certain amount of people bought into this theory as it evolved, and then went on to sell it to others, and so on and so forth, with pharma getting involved and now getting their piece of the pie in the health industry.....(just like they used to say cigarettes weren't harmful.  Someone probably claimed they did a study, sold it to the general public that cigarettes are safe and can be safely smoked by all.)  I am not saying cigs were used as a health marketing tool, but the appeal to the public is similar, in that it appeals to people's general sense of well being.  That's why a lot of useless health remedies are sold, by propanganda  and heavy advertising as something good and beneficial.  

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#189 of 251 Old 11-04-2012, 03:10 PM
 
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There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#190 of 251 Old 11-04-2012, 03:50 PM
 
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So what's the acceptable amount of inconvenience to go through in order to insure your child's well being?

You think that there is an acceptable amount of inconvenience to go through in order to prevent your child from being subjected to an invasive procedure against your wishes?

Do tell.

Let's remember this: http://www.dailypaul.com/242689/mother-who-questions-vaccine-at-hospital-has-newborn-taken-away

Mother Who Questions Vaccine at Hospital Has Newborn Taken Away
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#191 of 251 Old 11-04-2012, 03:56 PM
 
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No child was vaccinated without parental consent; in fact, the parents had to bring the children to the courthouse.  If it was "against their wishes" but with their consent, that seems like a personal issue to resolve.


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#192 of 251 Old 11-04-2012, 04:06 PM
 
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Uh yes, I do, I think seeing a doctor and filling out a form is an acceptable amount of inconvenience for skipping a procedure that protects your child and the rest of society from vaccine preventable diseases. Mystery solved.

That case you linked is terrible and Shouldn't happen, but it is in no way the norm.
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#193 of 251 Old 11-04-2012, 05:27 PM
 
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Uh yes, I do, I think seeing a doctor and filling out a form is an acceptable amount of inconvenience for skipping a procedure that protects your child and the rest of society from vaccine preventable diseases. Mystery solved.
That case you linked is terrible and Shouldn't happen, but it is in no way the norm.

 

So the resulting immunity potentially gained from vaccines is an important facet of public health?


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#194 of 251 Old 11-04-2012, 05:33 PM
 
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So what's the acceptable amount of inconvenience to go through in order to insure your child's well being? I'm just curious.
 

It is an exemption - a piece of paper.  It does not in and of itself ensure your child's well being.  It does not ensure other people's well being either - it might minimize spread of VAD if there is an outbreak (rare)  and non-vaccinated children are excluded from school.  That requires registering kids as non-vaxxed, though, not exemptions.  Exemptions are nothing but a way to exert control and try and increase the vax rate as far as I can tell.  I doubt many pro-vaxxers would be happy if they researched a procedure for their healthy children, decided to decline it, and had to ask for an exemption from the state  for their legal parental decision if they wanted their kids to attend school.  


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#195 of 251 Old 11-04-2012, 05:35 PM
 
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So the resulting immunity potentially gained from vaccines is an important facet of public health?

 

In my opinion, yes.  That's not why I vaccinate, but yes.

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So the resulting immunity potentially gained from vaccines is an important facet of public health?

 

Is this a trick question?  (I'm guessing yes.)  Isn't most of this discussion, and even this forum, predicated around the idea that pro-vaxers believe vaccine immunity is an important facet of public health?


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#197 of 251 Old 11-04-2012, 05:37 PM
 
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It is an exemption - a piece of paper.  It does not in and of itself ensure your child's well being.  It does not ensure other people's well being either - it might minimize spread of VAD if there is an outbreak (rare)  and non-vaccinated children are excluded from school.  That requires registering kids as non-vaxxed, though, not exemptions.  Exemptions are nothing but a way to exert control and try and increase the vax rate as far as I can tell.  I doubt many pro-vaxxers would be happy if they researched a procedure for their healthy children, decided to decline it, and had to ask for an exemption from the state  for their legal parental decision if they wanted their kids to attend school.  

 

I like to think if I were in that position I would understand the public health issues involved and, perhaps while rolling my eyes, just get the exemption and call it a day.

 

If I thought for one second vaccination was harmful for my child I would move heaven and earth to avoid it.  I think most people would. I"m kind of surprised so many people who actually DO think vaccines are harmful think such a low bar for avoiding them insurmountable.

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#198 of 251 Old 11-04-2012, 05:49 PM
 
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In my opinion, yes.  That's not why I vaccinate, but yes.

 

So why do you think vaccines are pushed through the school system, and not titer testing?  It seems testing the blood would be a more accurate way to determine who is immune and who is not.


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Is this a trick question?  (I'm guessing yes.)  Isn't most of this discussion, and even this forum, predicated around the idea that pro-vaxers believe vaccine immunity is an important facet of public health?

 

There is a simple way to confirm immunity, and yet that test is ignored in favor of a complied-to shot list.  I'm wondering why those who are pro-"required"-vaccine (for the benefit of public health) don't put more emphasis on titer testing.


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I'm trying to imagine the advantage of titer testing vs vaccinating . . . for one having titers without vaccination requires natural infection, which is what we're trying to avoid.  For another if you're vaccinated, in the overwhelming majority of cases you're immune, and if you're not there's not much you can do about it, so titer testing is irrelevant.

 

I guess submitting titer results in lieu of vaccine records would be reasonable enough, though.  I would have to think about it some more before I could really provide a strong opinion.

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I think testing for a child's blood is more invasive, and way more expensive, than vaccines.  But I also think that a titer test that shows immunity should count as a medical exemption, if parents choose that route.


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#202 of 251 Old 11-04-2012, 05:59 PM
 
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I like to think if I were in that position I would understand the public health issues involved and, perhaps while rolling my eyes, just get the exemption and call it a day.

 

If I thought for one second vaccination was harmful for my child I would move heaven and earth to avoid it.  I think most people would. I"m kind of surprised so many people who actually DO think vaccines are harmful think such a low bar for avoiding them insurmountable.

 

You're missing the point.  Parents shouldn't have to jump through any hoops - however easy you may consider those hoops to be - to avoid unwanted medical procedures in their children.


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So why do you think vaccines are pushed through the school system, and not titer testing?  It seems testing the blood would be a more accurate way to determine who is immune and who is not.

Who benefits from a one-size fits all vaccination program? Many vets know to titer animals before continually re-vaccinating. Although, dogs unfortunately, are probably the most vaccinated species on the planet and they are also incredibly sick with auto immune issues. Why don't pediatricians do titer testing as a matter of routine? Of course titer testing is probably meaningless as an indicator of immunity. 

 

New Failed Vax Study Proves Vaccine Antibody Theory Is False


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#204 of 251 Old 11-04-2012, 06:02 PM
 
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I think testing for a child's blood is more invasive, and way more expensive, than vaccines.  But I also think that a titer test that shows immunity should count as a medical exemption, if parents choose that route.

 

It's a simple blood test.  Besides, is public health not the goal here?  Is immunity not important?

 

Without confirming immunity, we're largely taking the benefits of vaccines by faith.

 

 

And no, titer results are not always an option for school.

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#205 of 251 Old 11-04-2012, 06:02 PM
 
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You're missing the point.  Parents shouldn't have to jump through any hoops - however easy you may consider those hoops to be - to avoid unwanted medical procedures in their children.

I don't agree at all. I believe vaccines are enough of a public health good to justify a push for them. I'm not in favor of eliminating exemptions, but I do think that parents should have to either vaccinate their kids or file an exemption to attend school. If they don't have to do either, a lot of kids won't get vaccinated just due to parental apathy. I'd rather that parents decide one way or the other rather than just being lazy about it, and I think the public interest in high vaccination rates is enough to justify having to put in a smidge of effort to get an exemption. 

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You're missing the point.  Parents shouldn't have to jump through any hoops - however easy you may consider those hoops to be - to avoid unwanted medical procedures in their children.

 

I agree in theory, but the reality is more complicated than that. The government has a responsibility to act in the public good, which sometimes means infringing on individual rights.  There are all kinds of examples of this.  Requiring you to have a driver's license, requiring you to register your car and have it inspected, requirements for proper disposal of bodies, etc.  Since I do believe that vaccination is an important aspect of public health, I think it's reasonable to place some requirements on avoiding it.  If you don't think it does anything for the public good that obviously changes the equation.

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I don't agree at all. I believe vaccines are enough of a public health good to justify a push for them. I'm not in favor of eliminating exemptions, but I do think that parents should have to either vaccinate their kids or file an exemption to attend school. If they don't have to do either, a lot of kids won't get vaccinated just due to parental apathy. I'd rather that parents decide one way or the other rather than just being lazy about it, and I think the public interest in high vaccination rates is enough to justify having to put in a smidge of effort to get an exemption. 

 

 

Exactly.  and if you look at the percentages of children who are un or under vaccinated before school age vs. after, or compare states with easier vs. more stringent exemption requirements, it's clear that there are many children who ARE vaccinated because of school requirements.  

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#208 of 251 Old 11-04-2012, 06:05 PM
 
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It's a simple blood test.  Besides, is public health not the goal here?  Is immunity not important?

 

Without confirming immunity, we're largely taking the benefits of vaccines by faith.

 

 

And no, titer results are not always an option for school.

 

 

No, we're taking the benefits of vaccines on the basis of a great deal of research, observational/clinical/experimental.  It's not at all "by faith."

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#209 of 251 Old 11-04-2012, 06:07 PM
 
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Who benefits from a one-size fits all vaccination program? Many vets know to titer animals before continually re-vaccinating. Although, dogs unfortunately, are probably the most vaccinated species on the planet and they are also incredibly sick with auto immune issues. Why don't pediatricians do titer testing as a matter of routine? Of course titer testing is probably meaningless as an indicator of immunity. 

 

New Failed Vax Study Proves Vaccine Antibody Theory Is False

 

Actually very few vets do titer testing.  I've tried to get titer testing for my dogs (because I actually do think dogs are way over vaccinated) and haven't had much luck.

 

Pediatricians don't do titer testing as a matter of routine because the likelihood of a child having contracted the disease they're being vaccinated for before they're vaccinated is incredibly small.  How many one year olds do you know that have already had measles?  Why do a titer test when it's going to be negative 99% or more of the time?  It's a needless and wasteful medical procedure.

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I'm trying to imagine the advantage of titer testing vs vaccinating . . . for one having titers without vaccination requires natural infection, which is what we're trying to avoid.  For another if you're vaccinated, in the overwhelming majority of cases you're immune, and if you're not there's not much you can do about it, so titer testing is irrelevant.

 

I guess submitting titer results in lieu of vaccine records would be reasonable enough, though.  I would have to think about it some more before I could really provide a strong opinion.

 

Well, schools could drop "required shots" and move to a periodic titer test for each child. 

 

Parents could get the vaccines on their own accord, as they see fit.

 

Only immune children (vaccinated or not) would be permitted to enter school.  After all, non-immunity is unsafe for public health, correct?


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