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#181 of 218 Old 11-22-2012, 04:23 PM
 
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The internet is very good at connecting what feel like large groups, but in reality are very rare. 

 

Something so "rare" sure has spurred the creation of numerous online groups and forums interested in talking about it.

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#182 of 218 Old 11-22-2012, 04:42 PM
 
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I don't know anyone personally who has had a vaccine reaction, except soreness at the vaccine site and mild fever following the injection (which demonstrates that the immune system is working as intended in response to the vaccine). 

 

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Obviously, if someone chooses not to look, they won't see.

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#183 of 218 Old 11-22-2012, 04:50 PM
 
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Wow, Chicha, that FB page is chilling.

 

16-year-old Amber, given Gardasil while sick--and then being give antibiotics at the same time?  And--like so many other reports of Gardasil injuries--collapsing and dying within days of the shot?  And Merck and its supporters still insisting that there are no deaths associated with Gardasil?

 

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#184 of 218 Old 11-22-2012, 05:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post
I don't know anyone personally who has had a vaccine reaction, except soreness at the vaccine site and mild fever following the injection (which demonstrates that the immune system is working as intended in response to the vaccine). 

Comments like this remind me of the conversation I had w/ a friend & her husband, who works for a big pharma co, about vaccines & what my friend told me after the conversation.  She said that her dh is very frustrated by people who do not vax & has never had a conversation w/ someone who does not vaccinate previous to our conversation.  Now, this couple knows at least two families  who do not vax.  If he wants to get more information from people who choose not to, it wouldn't take long to find someone to talk to.  I get the sense that he's not really interested in hearing *why* someone would choose not to vax but he's fine to be frustrated w/ them.  dizzy.gif

 

I did post more about this conversation in a thread a while back.  The convo was in May, I believe.  Don't have the time to look for a link.

 

Sus

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#185 of 218 Old 11-22-2012, 06:03 PM
 
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That reminds me of the Upton Sinclair quote: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!"
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#186 of 218 Old 11-26-2012, 05:44 AM
 
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HPV Vaccines: Science versus Reality by Dr Lucija Tomljenovic

 

 

 

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My greatest concern is over the fact that parents and children are not being told the truth about the real benefits and legitimate risks on HPV vaccines and that the medical authorities and regulators rely exclusively on information provided by the vaccine manufacturers as a base for making vaccine policies and recommendations.

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"If you find from your own experience that something is a fact and it contradicts what some authority has written down, then you must abandon the authority and base your reasoning on your own findings"~ Leonardo da Vinci

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#187 of 218 Old 11-26-2012, 05:47 AM
 
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One mans opinion, Mirzam. That's all that is.
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#188 of 218 Old 11-26-2012, 06:00 AM
 
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One mans opinion, Mirzam. That's all that is.

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Lucjia Tomljenovic

 

 

The comment above is a classic example of why these threads become unbearable to read.


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#189 of 218 Old 11-26-2012, 06:21 AM
 
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Whatever, one woman's opinion, same deal. I'm sorry that a simple mistake in gender pronouns makes things unbearable to read for you.
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#190 of 218 Old 11-26-2012, 06:47 AM
 
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Whatever, one woman's opinion, same deal. I'm sorry that a simple mistake in gender pronouns makes things unbearable to read for you.

Well, this woman's educated opinion is based on having conducted several research papers on vaccine safety. It's not like she is some random person, putting her 2 cents in.

 

Oh, your comments don't have any effect on me whatsoever, I was taking into account what others have said about debate threads being unhelpful. 

 

#WaterOffADucksBack


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#191 of 218 Old 11-26-2012, 07:00 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I thought it might be interesting to draw parallels between this thread and the one

on why people follow Medical Authorites: http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1368637/why-do-people-follow-medical-authorities

 

Trying to be moderate I think I would suggest these two threads show that we should respect the advice/opinions of people who have more expertise in an area than ourselves, without having to agree with every assessment they make. 

 

 


Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

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#192 of 218 Old 11-26-2012, 07:16 AM
 
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I thought it might be interesting to draw parallels between this thread and the one

on why people follow Medical Authorites: http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1368637/why-do-people-follow-medical-authorities

 

Trying to be moderate I think I would suggest these two threads show that we should respect the advice/opinions of people who have more expertise in an area than ourselves, without having to agree with every assessment they make. 

 

 

Respect the opinions of?  What does that really mean? 

 

I firmly believe in informed choice - which is quite different from "trust your doctor and do what what he or she says"

 

Informed choice means get as much legitimate information as you can (a hcp may be one source of info) and make your choice...as you will undoubtably be the one to live with any consequences. 


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#193 of 218 Old 11-26-2012, 07:25 AM
 
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Well, this woman's educated opinion is based on having conducted several research papers on vaccine safety. It's not like she is some random person, putting her 2 cents in.

Oh, your comments don't have any effect on me whatsoever, I was taking into account what others have said about debate threads being unhelpful. 

#WaterOffADucksBack

Except she is essentially just a random person off the street, since she has no particular expertise in immunology or vaccines and her studies were of questionable quality and mostly involved running statistical tests on a computer.
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#194 of 218 Old 11-26-2012, 07:34 AM
 
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Except she is essentially just a random person off the street, since she has no particular expertise in immunology or vaccines and her studies were of questionable quality and mostly involved running statistical tests on a computer.

Right.  You hate each others studies.  I am shocked and surprised.

 

I guess it boils down to what philosophy you start with - I think it is best to avoid pharmaceuticals unless you truly need them.  I think that has the best chance of conferring health.  To each their own.   


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#195 of 218 Old 11-26-2012, 07:36 AM
 
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I'm guessing most people on a site like mothering agree its best to avoid pharmaceuticals you don't need. Heck, I'm guessing most people in general agree with that.
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#196 of 218 Old 11-26-2012, 09:15 AM
 
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I'm guessing most people on a site like mothering agree its best to avoid pharmaceuticals you don't need. Heck, I'm guessing most people in general agree with that.

Then it comes down to the word "need".

 

In a literal sense - no one needs a vaccine.  A vaccine is given to a healthy person.

 

I don't think my kids need the majority of vaccines that are availible, even assuming no one vaxxed, and even assuming the only risks to vaccines were those agreed upon and accepted by pro-vaxxers. 


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#197 of 218 Old 11-26-2012, 09:16 AM
 
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Except she is essentially just a random person off the street, since she has no particular expertise in immunology or vaccines and her studies were of questionable quality and mostly involved running statistical tests on a computer.

 

Most pediatricians have no particular expertise in immunology or vaccines - does that mean their opinions and observations are irrelevant?

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#198 of 218 Old 11-26-2012, 09:58 AM
 
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Most pediatricians have no particular expertise in immunology or vaccines - does that mean their opinions and observations are irrelevant?

Paul Offit has no expertise whatsoever in autism, seizure disorders, asthma, autoimmune disorders, rheumatoid arthritis, bowel disorders, etc--yet he insists vaccines are safe.

Meanwhile, experts in those disorders acknowledge that at least for a subset, vaccines are the trigger or even the direct cause.
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#199 of 218 Old 11-26-2012, 11:17 AM
 
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I'm not sure that's actually the case, bokonon. I take my advice about things like vaccination more from organizations like acip, aap, or iom that have used experts an studies the matter extensively, though. Then discuss that with y doctor who is an expert on medicine and knows the particulars of my child, though. Not so much computer scientists and inorganic chemists.
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#200 of 218 Old 11-26-2012, 11:17 AM
 
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Then it comes down to the word "need".

In a literal sense - no one needs a vaccine.  A vaccine is given to a healthy person.

I don't think my kids need the majority of vaccines that are availible, even assuming no one vaxxed, and even assuming the only risks to vaccines were those agreed upon and accepted by pro-vaxxers. 

I disagree. Without vaccines these various diseases return and my child is at risk.
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#201 of 218 Old 11-26-2012, 11:33 AM
 
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I disagree. Without vaccines these various diseases return and my child is at risk.

 

 

 

We were discussing need.  You may have noticed I said "even if no one vaxxed" - meaning even if rubella (for example) returned in full force, I do not see the need to vaccinate a healthy toddler for it.  It does not matter who shoots holes in who's study…..if there is no need for a vaccine, there is no need for a vaccine.  

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There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#202 of 218 Old 11-26-2012, 11:39 AM
 
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The diseases haven't been eliminated, because they mutate, so children are at risk now, with vaccinations.
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#203 of 218 Old 11-26-2012, 11:42 AM
 
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We were discussing need.  You may have noticed I said "even if no one vaxxed" - meaning even if rubella (for example) returned in full force, I do not see the need to vaccinate a healthy toddler for it.  It does not matter who shoots holes in who's study…..if there is no need for a vaccine, there is no need for a vaccine.  

 

 

That's a matter of opinion, I guess.

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#204 of 218 Old 11-26-2012, 11:42 AM
 
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The diseases haven't been eliminated, because they mutate, so children are at risk now, with vaccinations.

 

 

There is SOME preliminary research that implies that MAY be the case for ONE disease.

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#205 of 218 Old 11-26-2012, 11:43 AM
 
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I disagree. Without vaccines these various diseases return and my child is at risk.

Maybe. 

 

The diseases will return, but it is likely they will not be as prevalent because of improved sanitation. Then your child would have to actually contract the disease. Then your child would have to have complications from what are (mostly) benign childhood diseases. 

 

Polio 95% of all cases are asymptomatic

Chickenpox while uncomfortable, very rarely an actual health risk

"Rubella infection of children and adults is usually mild, self-limiting and often asymptomatic" as per Wikipedia

 

... you get my point, fussy baby is calling me 


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#206 of 218 Old 11-26-2012, 11:52 AM
 
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I'm not sure how improved sanitation would help with an air born disease, although certainly it would help with the few diseases that are spread through contact with feces.

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#207 of 218 Old 11-26-2012, 11:56 AM
 
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If the viruses are not mutating, then why haven't the vpds been eliminated?
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#208 of 218 Old 11-26-2012, 12:14 PM
 
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Well, most of the, all but have been in the United States. Not all countries have vaccination programs, though, so that allows them to persist. Pockets where the vaccination rate is low in the us do, as well.
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#209 of 218 Old 11-26-2012, 12:55 PM
 
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Well, most of the, all but have been in the United States. Not all countries have vaccination programs, though, so that allows them to persist. Pockets where the vaccination rate is low in the us do, as well.

Which ones might they be? I have been through the WHO national vaccine schedule and didn't find a country without a program. Afghanistan, Angola, Malawi, Maldives, Republic of Korea, all have programs, I could go on, but I will give you the link, it is interesting reading.

 

http://apps.who.int/immunization_monitoring/en/globalsummary/scheduleselect.cfm


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#210 of 218 Old 11-26-2012, 03:00 PM
 
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Maybe I should've said they don't all have programs as successful as ours. Point is, there are still plenty of places in the world vpds persist due to lack of vaccination, even if they do have a "program."
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