Babies in UK to be offered Rotavirus vaccine - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 32 Old 11-15-2012, 10:59 PM - Thread Starter
 
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The NHS in the UK has decided to start offering rotavirus vaccine to babies (from sept 2013). http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-20268350

Te article (from BBC) claims this will prevent Tens of thousands of cases of vomiting and diarrhea annually in the uk.

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#2 of 32 Old 11-16-2012, 06:37 AM
 
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New vax schedule including rota, because I'm always curious about how it compares:
Quote:
Two months
Five-in-one: first dose for diphtheria, tetanus, whooping cough, polio and Haemophilus influenzae type b
Pneumococcal
Rotavirus from September 2013

Three months
Second five-in-one
Meningitis C
Second rotavirus from September 2013

Four months
Third five-in-one
Second Pneumococcal
Second meningitis C

One year
MMR
Third Pneumococcal
Booster for Haemophilus influenzae type b and meningitis C

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#3 of 32 Old 11-16-2012, 06:57 AM
 
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As long as it is not mandatory, informed consent is standard operating procedure, and doctors don't fire patients for refusing to get it…I don't care.  Parents can make decisions for their children.


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#4 of 32 Old 11-16-2012, 07:45 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosaic View Post

New vax schedule including rota, because I'm always curious about how it compares:
Quote:
Two months
Five-in-one: first dose for diphtheria, tetanus, whooping cough, polio and Haemophilus influenzae type b
Pneumococcal
Rotavirus from September 2013

Three months
Second five-in-one
Meningitis C
Second rotavirus from September 2013

Four months
Third five-in-one
Second Pneumococcal
Second meningitis C

One year
MMR
Third Pneumococcal
Booster for Haemophilus influenzae type b and meningitis C

 

I am shocked that they give these vaccines together. When my eldest was a baby, the ped would not give her the MMR together with HIB, I don't remember his reason, but I assume he had good one. I requested HIB even though it wasn't on the schedule and it was special ordered from Japan (we were in HK and they used the then UK schedule). So she got the HIB at 15 months and MMR at 18 months.


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#5 of 32 Old 11-20-2012, 11:39 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Anyone else have any comments on concurrent scheduling of HiB and MMR. I'm confident the NHS puts a lot of thought into the best schedule, so I'm surprised to read your comment, and I'd like to understand the issue.

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#6 of 32 Old 11-20-2012, 01:33 PM
 
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I haven't seen any evidence that more than one vaccine at a time is a problem, so I'm curious about this too.
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#7 of 32 Old 11-20-2012, 01:48 PM
 
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Sorry, it was 21 years ago, and I just followed along. The reason could either have been one of safety, which I don't think it was, or efficacy of the vaccines combined which I think was probably the case. Anyway, there was no way he was doing both together, so he must have felt strongly about it. This guy was a regular, mainstream pediatrician.


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#8 of 32 Old 11-20-2012, 07:38 PM
 
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I found this:
Quote:
M-M-RII has been administered concurrently with VARIVAX* [Varicella Virus Vaccine Live (Oka/Merck)], and PedvaxHIB* [Haemophilus b Conjugate Vaccine (Meningococcal Protein Conjugate)] using separate sites and syringes. No impairment of immune response to individual tested vaccine antigens was demonstrated. The type, frequency, and severity of adverse experiences observed in these studies with M-M-R II were similar to those seen when each vaccine was given alone.
Routine administration of DTP (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis) and/or OPV (oral poliovirus vaccine) concurrently with measles, mumps and rubella vaccines is not recommended because there are limited data relating to the simultaneous administration of these antigens.
However, other schedules have been used. The ACIP has stated "Although data are limited concerning the simultaneous administration of the entire recommended vaccine series (i.e., DTP, OPV, MMR, and Hib vaccines, with or without hepatitis B vaccine), data from numerous studies have indicated no interference between routinely recommended childhood vaccines (either live, attenuated, or killed). These findings support the simultaneous use of all vaccines as recommended."
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/biologicsbloodvaccines/vaccines/approvedproducts/ucm142553.pdf
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#9 of 32 Old 11-20-2012, 07:43 PM
 
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Simultaneous administration (that is, administration on the same day) of the most widely used live and inactivated vaccines does not result in decreased antibody responses or increased rates of adverse reaction.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/genrec.pdf
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#10 of 32 Old 11-20-2012, 07:48 PM
 
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I'm finding the same thing lots of other places. I'm guessing the pediatrician 21 years ago was either mistaken or the science he was using is now out of date.
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#11 of 32 Old 11-21-2012, 03:23 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks Rrrrrachel - that's reassuring. :) 


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#12 of 32 Old 11-21-2012, 02:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

I'm finding the same thing lots of other places. I'm guessing the pediatrician 21 years ago was either mistaken or the science he was using is now out of date.

I doubt he was mistaken. He was an extremely well qualified consultant pediatrician, who worked for one of the leading hospitals in Hong Kong. I appreciate his cautiousness, frankly, because it might have prevented a vaccine reaction or even damage in my DD if she had gotten both shots at the same time. There was no inconvenience for me having to get the two vaccines three months apart.


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#13 of 32 Old 11-21-2012, 02:18 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Perhaps something has changed with the vaccines in the last 20 years. The fact is Rrrrrachel provided pretty convincing (to me) information that there's no problem administering them together today. Which doesn't surprise me I guess since the NHS wouldn't schedule them together if there was.

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#14 of 32 Old 11-21-2012, 02:35 PM
 
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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

Perhaps something has changed with the vaccines in the last 20 years. The fact is Rrrrrachel provided pretty convincing (to me) information that there's no problem administering them together today. Which doesn't surprise me I guess since the NHS wouldn't schedule them together if there was.

Oh really! Given what we know from various FOI documents. I wouldn't be so trusting.


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#15 of 32 Old 11-21-2012, 03:33 PM
 
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Well don't tease. What DO we know from various foi documents?
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#16 of 32 Old 11-21-2012, 04:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

Perhaps something has changed with the vaccines in the last 20 years. The fact is Rrrrrachel provided pretty convincing (to me) information that there's no problem administering them together today. Which doesn't surprise me I guess since the NHS wouldn't schedule them together if there was.

 

Are you saying that the NHS is never wrong?

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#17 of 32 Old 11-21-2012, 11:36 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Are you saying that the NHS is never wrong?

If course not. Just that they have a lot more resources and expertise to understand these issues than I do. And also that I'm confident they do their best to be right about medical choices for the UK population, within the constraints of the funding they are given.

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#18 of 32 Old 11-22-2012, 07:37 PM
 
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-larry-dossey/big-pharma-health-care-cr_b_613311.html?show_comment_id=51007573#comment_51007573

 

Disease Mongering (a term introduced by health-science writer Lynn Payer in her 1992 book Disease-Mongers: How Doctors, Drug Companies, and Insurers Are Making You Feel Sick. )

This strategy has also been called "the corporate construction of disease" by Ray Moynihan, Iona Heath and David Henry in the British Medical Journal. "There's a lot of money to be made from telling healthy people they're sick," they say. "Pharmaceutical companies are actively involved in sponsoring the definition of diseases and promoting them to both prescribers and consumers."

 

The author of the book, Lynn Payer,  has identified several disease-mongering tactics.  Here are just 3 of them, that seem particularly relevant to the discussion:

 

Recruiting doctors to spin the message

Using statistics selectively to exaggerate the benefits of treatment

Promoting the treatment as risk free

Since I've had several experience where I've been offered medical treatments for diseases I didn't have, and since EVERY doctor I saw within a 10-year-period was unaware that the vaccines they gave me contained thimerosal, to which they KNEW I had a documented allergy -- I realize that I can no longer trust that NHS, CDC, FDA, and even my doctors know or care what's best for me, nor do they always have a thorough knowledge of the medications they prescribe. In fact, most of the time, they rely on the pharmaceutical rep's recommendations.

 

 
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#19 of 32 Old 11-25-2012, 03:06 PM
 
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Taximom5, calling or implying people on any side of the vax debate are blind followers is not within the UA. Edit your post.

All members: Questioning authority is fine; however, when you cross into judging whether others are naive or blind followers, you're crossing into UAV territory. Does that make sense?
 

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#20 of 32 Old 12-05-2012, 06:15 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

Quote:
Simultaneous administration (that is, administration on the same day) of the most widely used live and inactivated vaccines does not result in decreased antibody responses or increased rates of adverse reaction.


http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/genrec.pdf

 

I might have worked out why my DD's pediatrician 21 years ago refused to give her HIB and MMR at the same time. It appears according to Merck's MMR package insert that

 

 

 

Quote:

"Routine administration of DTP (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis) and/or OPV (oral poliovirus vaccine) concurrently with measles, mumps and rubella vaccines is not recommended because there are limited data relating to the simultaneous administration of these antigens." - MMR II package insert, page 9

 

 

The original list of seven childhood vaccines, (small pox no longer on the schedule) cumulatively and simultaneously as adiminstered, were never tested, therefore the vaccines licensed after MMR , DPT, and polio assumed that the first seven were safe. I guess my DD's pediatrician read the inserts and knew the two vaccines had never been tested together. Thank you doctor for your due diligence.

 

 


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#21 of 32 Old 12-05-2012, 09:01 AM
 
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I guess you missed the link I posted further up where they have been tested together.
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#22 of 32 Old 12-05-2012, 09:26 AM
 
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I guess you missed the link I posted further up where they have been tested together.

No I didn't.


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#23 of 32 Old 12-05-2012, 09:50 AM
 
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So you're using a package insert that says DTP and mmr haven't been tested together to justify why your pediatrician told you not to get hib and mmr together, even though hib and mmr have been tested together?
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So you're using a package insert that says DTP and mmr haven't been tested together to justify why your pediatrician told you not to get hib and mmr together, even though hib and mmr have been tested together?

HIB and MMR were not tested together in 1991 when my DD received the MMR. The pediatrician also did not administer the DPT with MMR. She got the MMR alone.

 

(Ref from insert:  21. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Recommended childhood immunization schedule — United States, January-June 

1996, MMWR 44(51 & 52): 940-943, January 5, 1996.)

 

Oh, BTW, you do realize the quote you provided above was not the vaccine insert for MMR II don't you? It was Meruvax II (Rubella).


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#25 of 32 Old 12-05-2012, 12:03 PM
 
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Oh great, so I was right that your doctor was using science that is now out of date.

I don't actually remember where that came from. Id have to check the link.
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#26 of 32 Old 12-05-2012, 02:21 PM
 
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Oh great, so I was right that your doctor was using science that is now out of date.

I don't actually remember where that came from. Id have to check the link.

The point is he was using science. However, babies can still given the MMR together with DTaP and polo at 15 months which isn't backed by science.


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#27 of 32 Old 12-05-2012, 02:24 PM - Thread Starter
 
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No, the point is that 21 years ago there had ot been any safety testing of the two together, so this doctor was being cautious. In the meantime that safety testing has happened and shown its actually fine to give both vaccines together. So the advice is now out of date.

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#28 of 32 Old 12-05-2012, 02:32 PM
 
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No, the point is that 21 years ago there had ot been any safety testing of the two together, so this doctor was being cautious. In the meantime that safety testing has happened and shown its actually fine to give both vaccines together. So the advice is now out of date.

 

I realize that is what she is saying. However, it has NOT been shown to be 'safe' to give the MMR with the DTaP or Polio, which is recommended.

 

 

1000


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#29 of 32 Old 12-05-2012, 04:33 PM
 
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I spent awhile looking into this when it came up before. There has been a lot of testing of vaccines cocomitantly. There's also a lot of theoretical science that points to it as safe. It's not true that they haven't been tested and that there is no science supporting their safety.
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#30 of 32 Old 12-06-2012, 11:30 AM
 
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So if an infant has a reaction after receiving multiple vaccines, how do they determine which one(s) is/are the culprit? 


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