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Old 11-23-2012, 06:08 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Hep b is not just an std. A significant number children get infected each year, and they are at far greater risk for chronic illness if they do get infected.
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Old 11-23-2012, 06:42 PM
 
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None-the-less, and according to WHO, " The majority of infections in developed countries are transmitted during young adulthood by sexual activity and injecting drug use. Hepatitis B is a major infectious occupational hazard of health workers."

 

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs204/en/


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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Old 11-23-2012, 06:44 PM
 
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It's the older generation--the people over, say 45 or so--who really have no clue

 

Yeah, those of us in our forties have absolutely no clue.


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Old 11-23-2012, 06:55 PM
 
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Yeah, those of us in our forties have absolutely no clue.

I agree with Taxi.  Many people that do not have young children do not know how many vaccines young children face.  

 

I don't think it is a slight against people in their forties (says this forty year old)


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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Old 11-23-2012, 08:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I think it's fairly irrelevant if the majority of cases are in older people if children are significantly at risk.


From CHOP
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Before the hepatitis B vaccine, every year in the United States about 18,000 children were infected with hepatitis B virus by the time they were 10 years old. This statistic is especially important because people are much more likely to develop liver cancer or cirrhosis if they are infected early in life, rather than later in life (most people are infected with hepatitis B virus when they are adolescents and young adults).
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Old 11-23-2012, 08:24 PM
 
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CDC:

 

"Among children and adolescents aged <19 years in 1990, incidence per 100,000 population was highest among Asian/Pacific Islanders (A/PIs) (6.74) and blacks (4.29); whites had the lowest race-specific incidence (1.39)... From 1990 to 2002, rates declined 92% among A/PIs, 88% among whites, 88% among blacks, and 84% among American Indians/Alaskan Natives (AI/ANs) (Figure 2). In 2002, the highest incidence per 100,000 population was among A/PIs (0.55), followed by blacks (0.51), AI/ANs (0.43), and whites (0.16)

 

I am white.  If we are looking at pre-vaccine rates, my children would have had a 1.39/100 000 chance of having Hep B under age 19 (and significantly less as an infant).  Currently the rate for white is 0.16/100 000.

 

I don't think most kids are at significant risk of getting Hep B.  It is pretty rare in some demographics- both pre and post Hep B. vaccination era.  


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Old 11-23-2012, 08:38 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Again, comparing the relative risk among various groups isn't really that relevant. You are obviously entitled to make the decision for your own kid. However, the constant "why are we vaccinating infants for an std" line is misleading and inaccurate.
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Old 11-23-2012, 08:49 PM
 
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Again, comparing the relative risk among various groups isn't really that relevant. You are obviously entitled to make the decision for your own kid. However, the constant "why are we vaccinating infants for an std" line is misleading and inaccurate.

Isn't this one of the central issues of the vaccine debate, though? We are not "obviously" entitled to make our children's vaccine decisions. Despite the existence of reasonable arguments against an individual's vaccination with a given vaccine, parents who wish to decline face enormous pressure to go against their better judgment and vaccinate regardless.

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Old 11-23-2012, 09:01 PM
 
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 Despite the existence of reasonable arguments against an individual's vaccination with a given vaccine, parents who wish to decline face enormous pressure to go against their better judgment and vaccinate regardless.

That's putting it awfully mildly. Usually,parents are told they have no choice.  In some cases, including my second child, the hep B vaccine is given in the hospital without the mother's consent. In a case just this year, a mother had her newborn daughter forcibly taken from her for refusing to immediately approve the hepatitis B vaccine.

http://www.minotdailynews.com/page/blogs.detail/display/783/Pennsylvania-social-worker-and-hospital-face-HSLDA-lawsuit-after-seizing-custody-of-newborn.html

 

Interestingly, the hospital's website implies that newborns of mothers not positive for hep B need not receive the hep B vaccine immediately after birth.

http://pennstatehershey.adam.com/content.aspx?productId=117&pid=1&gid=002022

 

  • The first shot is given to infants before leaving the hospital. If the baby's mother carries the hepatitis B virus, the baby receives the first vaccine shortly after birth.
  • The second shot is given between 1 and 2 months of age.
  • The third shot is given at 6 months of age.

Infants who do not get the first shot until 4 to 8 weeks will get the second shot at 4 months and the third shot at 6 to 16 months. Either way, the second and third shots are given along with other routine childhood immunizations.

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Old 11-23-2012, 09:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

Again, comparing the relative risk among various groups isn't really that relevant. You are obviously entitled to make the decision for your own kid. However, the constant "why are we vaccinating infants for an std" line is misleading and inaccurate.

No, it isn't.  Hep B is primarily an std. 

 

"You can get hepatitis B through the blood and other body fluids from an infected person. It's primarily a sexually transmitted disease, but you can also pick it up through used needles, and through body/ear piercing or tattooing with dirty equipment."

 

There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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Old 11-23-2012, 10:00 PM
 
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Isn't this one of the central issues of the vaccine debate, though? We are not "obviously" entitled to make our children's vaccine decisions. Despite the existence of reasonable arguments against an individual's vaccination with a given vaccine, parents who wish to decline face enormous pressure to go against their better judgment and vaccinate regardless.

I also think people are under-informed.

 

Here is the Vaccine Information Sheet for Hep B:

 

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/vis/downloads/vis-hep-b.pdf

 

Does it mention that Hep B is primarily a STD?  

Does it let parents know the prevalence of Hep B among infants (which is who is receiving it?)

Does it mention that some groups are at  significantly higher risk of Hep B than others - and what the breakdown is (say…Pacific Islanders versus Caucasians in the USA?)

Does it mention this study, which as far as I know has not been debunked, that shows male neonates are up to 3 times as likely to develop autism if they are vaccinated at birth with Hep B versus one month later or not at all?  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21058170/

 

I completely agree that parents should get to decide…but they have to be given all the pertinent information or it is not informed consent.


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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Old 11-23-2012, 10:47 PM
 
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In a case just this year, a mother had her newborn daughter forcibly taken from her for refusing to immediately approve the hepatitis B vaccine.

http://www.minotdailynews.com/page/blogs.detail/display/783/Pennsylvania-social-worker-and-hospital-face-HSLDA-lawsuit-after-seizing-custody-of-newborn.html

 

From that article:
 

 

Quote:
When Jodi Farris asked if the situation could wait until her husband returned to the hospital, the social worker left the room and called the police.

 

Unfortunately, I think if you are going to reject pharmaceuticals (even if you have the perfect right to go AMA, "Against Medical Advice"), it is very helpful to have your husband with you.

 

The times I've had the "no we don't/won't vaccinate" conversations with doctors, my dh was with me. They would glance at him while I was talking as if to gauge his level of commitment to what I was saying (which sadly for them is rock-solid, lol).  


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Old 11-24-2012, 05:11 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Kathy, a large number of children get hep b every year either from their mothers or child to child transmission. It's NOT just an std. It makes no difference if its PRIMARILY an std if children are still significantly at risk, which they are.

I've already been down the forced vaccination rabbit hole and I'm not doing it anymore. We will have to agree to disagree. Parents do have a choice.
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Old 11-24-2012, 07:36 AM
 
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Kathy, a large number of children get hep b every year either from their mothers or child to child transmission. It's NOT just an std. It makes no difference if its PRIMARILY an std if children are still significantly at risk, which they are.
 

Define large number.  I posted numbers earlier that showed all caucasian children less than 19 years old pre Hep B vaccine era had a 1.39/100 000 of having Hep.  B.  Less than 19 includes infants.  It is fair to assume a good number of those 1.39 per 100 000  got it after infancy (probably late teen, when unprotected sex and needle sharing is an issue…) So the true number of infants with Hep B was probably well under 1.39/100 000 in the pre-vaccine era.

 

Yes, infants who get Hep B are at risk from it, however the risk of an infant getting  Hep B. is extremely low in many populations.

 

I agree parents should  decide for themselves whether to vaccinate.  I disagree on it being a choice (given school regulations) but we can agree to disagree. At least delaying is a choice.  I would like parents to have all pertinent info to make a decision on Hep B including prevalence, risk factors for acquiring it, etc, as outlined in a post above. I do not think they do  -which is a big part of the reason many of us post here - to point out and discuss information that is not the watered down or overly brief information that is presented to parents. 


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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Old 11-24-2012, 08:28 AM
 
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Define large number.  I posted numbers earlier that showed all caucasian children less than 19 years old pre-vaccine had a 1.39/100 000 of having Hep.  B.  Less than 19 includes infants.  It is fair to assume a good number of those 1.39 per 100 000  got it after infancy (probably late teen, when unprotected sex and needle sharing is an issue…) so the true number of infants with hep b is probably well under 1.39/100 000 in the pre-vaccine era.

The numbers look pretty clear to me.

 

1 in 100,000 have a chance of developing hep B before the age of 19 without a hep B shot.

 

Infant boys have 3 times the likelihood of developing autism if given the hep B shot within the first month of life.

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Old 11-24-2012, 08:43 AM
 
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Kathy, a large number of children get hep b every year either from their mothers or child to child transmission.

 

Expectant mothers are tested for hep B as part of prenatal care. If they test negative, then their newborns are at zero risk.

 

I have never seen numbers on child-to-child hepatitis B transmission.

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Old 11-24-2012, 08:51 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Kathy I already defined large number and posted the stat for you. You feel the risk for your child is low enough. That's cool. Children are at risk from hep b from non sexual contact, though.

I actually declined and will always decline the hep b shot at birth, because I think it can interfere with breastfeeding. I did and will always get it at two months, though, barring any unforeseen special circumstances, because I think the risk, like that for ther vpd, is real.

Everyone has to weigh the risks and benefits and decide for their own child. I am bothered by the constant dismissal of the risks of hep b, though, because its "just an std."
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Old 11-24-2012, 10:20 AM
 
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Kathy, a large number of children get hep b every year either from their mothers or child to child transmission. 

http://www.uptodate.com/contents/overview-of-hepatitis-b-virus-infection-in-children

 

Most cases of acute hepatitis B infection in the United States, and in several other non-endemic countries, develop in patients from high-risk groups such as intravenous drug users, homosexual men, in those living in communities with a large proportion of immigrants from regions where HBV is endemic, and in certain groups where HBV is endemic, such as Native Americans in Alaska [5]. The majority of children with chronic HBV infections are immigrants, have immigrant parents, or became exposed through other household contacts [6].

 

So where is data on child-to-child transmission of hepatitis B?

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Old 11-24-2012, 10:49 AM
 
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Infant boys have 3 times the likelihood of developing autism if given the hep B shot within the first month of life.

Any evidence to back up this statement?
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Old 11-24-2012, 12:04 PM
 
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Any evidence to back up this statement?

Kathymuggle already posted it upthread, just 9 posts ago: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21058170/

"Boys vaccinated as neonates had threefold greater odds for autism diagnosis compared to boys never vaccinated or vaccinated after the first month of life."

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Old 11-24-2012, 12:10 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Parental report of autism diagnosis. Funny hoe that kind of reporting is sometimes junk science and sometimes completely conclusive. Hmmm.
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Old 11-24-2012, 12:21 PM
 
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Well, I doubt parents are wrong on if their child has autism.

 

Once in a while, we hear from parents who say "we think so and so might have autism" but they are often in the process of getting a diagnosis. That is part of the reason when when talk of autism statistics we look at birth cohorts from 8 years back. It can take a while for a diagnosis.   Most kids with autism have an official diagnosis - it is a complicated disorder involving education plan, outpatient services, etc.  

 

Parental reports can be accurate - it depends (to some degree) on the nature of what they are reporting.  


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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Old 11-24-2012, 12:22 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Also interesting how sample size only matters sometimes. In that study:

"The autism group had 33 kids total. Of these, 9 of 31 (29%) were given the HepB vaccine. Compare this to 1,258 of 7,455 (17%) of the non-autism group who were given the HepB."

That is well below the threshold necessary to reliably provide statistical significance.
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Old 11-24-2012, 12:56 PM
 
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Yes, small sample size can be an issue.

 

I found this as well - it might be the same study as before.    Yes, small sample size - but the abstract says they found statistically significant evidence.

 

It does say the study comes from a time when thim was in Hep B in the USA - it is worth noting for our non-American parents that Canada still uses a Hep B vaccine with thimerosal.  This is a little old, but it looks like the UK's shot does as well.  :http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4472485.stm.

 

And ,of course, (OT) but thim is still found in some flu vaccines given to pregnant women.  Ask for a thim-free shot if you going down this path, lurkers!!

 

"This study investigated the association between vaccination with the Hepatitis B triple series vaccine prior to 2000 and developmental disability in children aged 1–9 years (n = 1824), proxied by parental report that their child receives early intervention or special education services (EIS)...The odds of receiving EIS were approximately nine times as great for vaccinated boys (n = 46) as for unvaccinated boys (n = 7), after adjustment for confounders. This study found statistically significant evidence to suggest that boys in United States who were vaccinated with the triple series Hepatitis B vaccine, during the time period in which vaccines were manufactured with thimerosal, were more susceptible to developmental disability than were unvaccinated boys."

 

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02772240701806501


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Old 11-24-2012, 12:59 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Kathy, regardless of what it says I have a difficult time buying into statistical significance when one of your groups had a sample size of 7. That strains credulity.
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Old 11-24-2012, 01:06 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Both of these studies have some issues with methodology, although its hard to be sure because I haven't seen the full study doe the second. The hep b vaccine became part of the schedule in 1991. In both studies they studied children old enough to not have gotten the vaccine because it wasn't on the schedule. Since both autismdiagnosis rates and rates of early intervention have increased over time due to issues entirely unrelated to vaccination, these older children would be less likely to be diagnosed with these conditions and more likely to be unvaccinated.
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Old 11-24-2012, 02:18 PM
 
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 Since both autismdiagnosis rates and rates of early intervention have increased over time due to issues entirely unrelated to vaccination, 

Please do tell us what these issues are, and how you know that they are entirely unrelated to vaccination.

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Old 11-24-2012, 02:30 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Well, taxi, primarily increased efforts at early diagnosis and intervention, as well as expanded diagnosis criteria for various developmental delays.
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Old 11-24-2012, 02:36 PM
 
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Kathy, regardless of what it says I have a difficult time buying into statistical significance when one of your groups had a sample size of 7. That strains credulity.

The statistical significance words were theirs.

 

Still, I hear you.

 

However, if study number one showed an increase in a developmental issue, and study 2 also showed an increase, it might mean something.  Yes, small sample size - but the fact two show similar issues is concerning.  If there are other studies, it would be more concerning.

 

This has a wealth of links critical of Hep. B:

http://www.greenmedinfo.com/anti-therapeutic-action/vaccination-hepatitis-b


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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Old 11-24-2012, 02:46 PM
 
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Well, taxi, primarily increased efforts at early diagnosis and intervention, as well as expanded diagnosis criteria for various developmental delays.

Well, Rrrrachel, there has been no expanded diagnostic criteria for autism since 1994, when DSM-IV was published.  That's 18 years ago, and autism rates are still increasing.  Early diagnosis and intervention have not changed over the last 15 years that I can see.

 

And autism rates continue to skyrocket.


Even the UC Davis MIND Institute admits that autism rates are skyrocketing, that it's NOT just better diagnosis, and that environmental factors are likely.

 

You still haven't told us how you know that autism has nothing to do with vaccines. I'm sure Hannah Poling's parents would like to know this, too, as well as the families of the children compensated by the US government for their "vaccine-induced brain damage" (which just happened to be autism).  Oh, and the Italian government recently admitted that the MMR caused an Italian child to regress into autism.  They might like to hear how you know that autism is entirely unrelated to vaccination.

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