Why Do People Follow Medical Authorities? - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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#61 of 198 Old 11-27-2012, 07:22 AM
 
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dbl post.


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#62 of 198 Old 11-27-2012, 07:24 AM
 
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I will come out of lurker status to take a crack at this...

 

For one thing, I think it is dead wrong to say, "because doctors often advocate circumcision/early weaning/c-sections/etc. we can't possibly listen to them about vaccines."  There are so many issues with this logic, and it could be said about anything the doctor says/does - so why go to doctors at all, ever, since they can never be trusted?  Why bother getting a second opinion or searching for a care provider, since all doctors are part of a mainstream medicine army that isn't allowed to deviate from the script or have individual opinions?  Doctors are individuals.  I think it is a dangerous oversimplification to paint with such a broad brush - if they agree with the standard vax schedule, they may have professional or personal reasons for that beyond "blind trust."

 

Which brings up kathymuggle's question...

 

I don't think trust precludes research.  I don't think all trust must be blind.  So when many say they "trust their doctor" or "trust science" I believe they have done sufficient research (sufficient *for them*) to back up their doctor's recommendations.  Or, phrased another way, doctor says, "I recommend x" - they sleep on it, think on it, do their research, don't find an unacceptable risk involved, and say, "Ok, I trust my doctor's expertise."

 

Ultimately, it's a question of personal assessment of risk.  If I think something my doctor is proposing is fraught with possible complications, seems unnecessary, etc. I will do that much more research.  Other times, I may do scant research and rely more on their expertise, if I perceive less of a risk.  Just as I generally rely on car mechanics to tell me what my car needs, even though I know they may recommend lots of unnecessary interventions, and I try to be cautious of that.

 

I see my grandparents generation "blindly" trusting their doctors - to the point of not even asking any questions.  This is not my approach at all - I often blatantly contradict my doctors advice, if I feel strongly about it (or we would not have DS).  I like information and to square things away in my heart/head.  Yet that does not mean I never rely on my doctor's advice, and that does not mean I have all day to sit around researching anything and everything my doctor proposes.  Doctors are not infallible gods, but neither does my google searching an MD make.  shrug.gif


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#63 of 198 Old 11-27-2012, 07:37 AM
 
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I feel I can trust my doctor while being appropriately skeptical of influences of pharmaceutical companies.  I feel free to deny a vaccine or a drug offered - other times, I will take them when I agree it seems like a good idea.  Alot of Western medicine is legal CYA, and you have to filter that out, too.  There's also professional bias - I know every time I have a surgical consult, the surgeon is going to recommend surgery, because that's what they do.  I've had doctors make their spiel, then tell me they are fine with my decision to disregard what they say, because they had to say it for legal reasons.

 

None of these things make me implicitly unable to trust the judgment of my doctors, or science.

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#64 of 198 Old 11-27-2012, 08:49 AM
 
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One reason not to trust doctors, in general, is poor advise in the past, from multiple doctors. That can be confidence shaking.
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#65 of 198 Old 11-27-2012, 10:10 AM
 
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For one thing, I think it is dead wrong to say, "because doctors often advocate circumcision/early weaning/c-sections/etc. we can't possibly listen to them about vaccines."  

 

I didn't say that.  My point was that when people say "I trust my doctor's advice about vaccines" and then say "My doctor thinks my son should be circumcised - what a UAV!", it's hypocritical.


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#66 of 198 Old 11-27-2012, 10:48 AM
 
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I didn't say that.  My point was that when people say "I trust my doctor's advice about vaccines" and then say "My doctor thinks my son should be circumcised - what a UAV!", it's hypocritical.

 

Why is it hypocritical to agree with your doctor on some health issues and not others? headscratch.gif For it to be hypocritical, you would have to be saying that people should either always listen to their doctors or never listen to their doctors.  Since you don't think people should trust their doctors on vaccines, the implication is it's the latter.  

 

It's an oversimplification - you imply that because they are wrong on one thing, you shouldn't trust them on another.  My doctor is human - an individual with many different opinions on multiple issues, some I agree with, some I sure as h#ll don't.  I can ascertain whether my doctor seems knowledgeable about a particular issue (like breastfeeding) and base trust on that - trusting their opinion on one issue, and not so much on another.  I don't think that's hypocritical.

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#67 of 198 Old 11-27-2012, 10:54 AM
 
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Why is it hypocritical to agree with your doctor on some health issues and not others? headscratch.gif For it to be hypocritical, you would have to be saying that people should either always listen to their doctors or never listen to their doctors.  Since you don't think people should trust their doctors on vaccines, the implication is it's the latter.  

 

It's an oversimplification - you imply that because they are wrong on one thing, you shouldn't trust them on another.  My doctor is human - an individual with many different opinions on multiple issues, some I agree with, some I sure as h#ll don't.  I can ascertain whether my doctor seems knowledgeable about a particular issue (like breastfeeding) and base trust on that - trusting their opinion on one issue, and not so much on another.  I don't think that's hypocritical.

 

It's not about agreeing, it's about trust.


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#68 of 198 Old 11-27-2012, 11:16 AM
 
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It's not about agreeing, it's about trust.

 

You're saying that if you disagree with your doctor on one issue (circumcision), you can't trust them on any other (vaccines) - or else you are a hypocrite.  I think it's more complicated than that.  My doctor can be a complete idiot about one thing, and know alot about another.  I think it is up to every person to evaluate their own doctor's expertise and decide when/where to trust them, and when/where to challenge them.  

 

Trust and agreement (or, per your example, disagreement) are part of the same thing.  If I trust my doctor's judgment, I will more readily agree with her decisions, or to what she proposes.  If I find I often agree with my doctor, I'm more likely to trust them (this may be where your point lies) - but that isn't the only factor.

 

I guess what it comes down to is if we are talking about absolute blind trust - or if we are talking about the kind of trust that is circumspect and earned.  My personal opinion is that at least *some* of the people who say they trust their doctor fall into the second camp.  I've certainly had doctors that lost my trust or never earned it to begin with, but I don't extrapolate from those isolated experiences to make judgments about the whole profession.


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#69 of 198 Old 11-27-2012, 11:22 AM
 
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It's not about agreeing, it's about trust.

 

Someone asked me two questions about trust once, that I thought were very revealing:

- Do I trust my husband?

- Do I trust my husband to file our tax returns?

The answers are very different.

 

Do I trust my pediatrician?  Sure!  But even the most absolute trust has limits.

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#70 of 198 Old 11-27-2012, 11:33 AM
 
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I trust that my doctor knows more than I do about medicine.  I do not (automatically) trust that he has the same priorities that I do or would do the same things I would do with that knowledge.  Over the years I have come to trust that he understands and respects my priorities, but that trust was earned.  I'm also comfortable telling him on occasion that I appreciate his knowledge and opinion, but would prefer to take a different route than he recommends.  That doesn't mean that I think I know more about medicine than he does, but it does mean that I may prioritize things differently; for instance, what he describes as a small risk might indeed be small but still unacceptable to me, or what he describes as somewhat risky may be a risk I'm willing to take.

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#71 of 198 Old 11-27-2012, 12:06 PM
 
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I trust that my doctor knows more than I do about medicine.  I do not (automatically) trust that he has the same priorities that I do or would do the same things I would do with that knowledge.   

I think that's a nice way to put it. I think I probably feel the same way. 


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#72 of 198 Old 11-27-2012, 12:16 PM
 
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So, what's the source of your definitive knowledge that doctors receive no training in breastfeeding?
 

While i didnt post  what you are responding to, i can answer your question.  My sons pediatrician told me, that continuing to breastfeed him past the age of 2 was 'infantilizing' him.

 

Either he never learned about breastfeeding in med school (including not bothering to keep updated with WHO recommendations for breastfeeding, or, he was stupid, or, he was incompetent.   I wouldnt want to accuse him of being the latter.Thats source enough for me.

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#73 of 198 Old 11-27-2012, 12:48 PM
 
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My Dr seems pretty up to speed on breastfeeding. I think she BF'd for quite a while herself and the way she phrased the questions of infant feeding was very, very much that BF was the expected norm. I appreciated that she chose to assume all her clients were BFing. At DC's 18 month visit I mentioned going to the dentist and she was nice to help prepare me for a likely anti-BF on demand lecture from the dentist (which I've already gotten).  

 

Did you end up fining another doctor who was more knowledgeable about breastfeeding, Contactmaya? 


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#74 of 198 Old 11-27-2012, 01:51 PM
 
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A doctor has to listen. To your priorities, your symptoms, your needs. All the education in the world doesn't replace that!
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#75 of 198 Old 11-27-2012, 02:29 PM
 
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I think that the question of whether or not I *trust* my doctor may be the wrong one to be asking.

First, trust is an emotionally loaded concept; someone you don't *trust* is usually a nefarious individual out to mislead or hoodwink you. When my doctor recommended rice cereal for my baby, I didn't opt for avocado because I don't *trust* her. She's just unaware of the conflicting medical opinions on first foods and probably didn't get the recent memo about arsenic content. None of this makes her "untrustworthy."

"Trust" can readily become a term for guilting and gaslighting patients. "How could you?? Don't you trust me, your doctor?"

Unless there's an immediate, life-or-death emergency and no time for research, I never trust any ONE authority or ONE source to give me all of the information that I need to make medical decisions. Medicine is too complex for that.
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#76 of 198 Old 11-27-2012, 03:24 PM
 
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While i didnt post  what you are responding to, i can answer your question.  My sons pediatrician told me, that continuing to breastfeed him past the age of 2 was 'infantilizing' him.

 

Either he never learned about breastfeeding in med school (including not bothering to keep updated with WHO recommendations for breastfeeding, or, he was stupid, or, he was incompetent.   I wouldnt want to accuse him of being the latter.Thats source enough for me.

 

So, from your sample size of 1, you can infer that all doctors receive no training in breastfeeding?

 

Please see my previous post describing the training my classmates and I received.

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#77 of 198 Old 11-27-2012, 05:38 PM
 
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So, from your sample size of 1, you can infer that all doctors receive no training in breastfeeding?

Please see my previous post describing the training my classmates and I received.

Maybe we can poll MDC folks and get a larger sample size.
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#78 of 198 Old 11-27-2012, 06:36 PM
 
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Just out of curiosity, why does one have a doctor that they don't trust? I mean, outside of living in a place where your access to doctors is extremely limited, why would someone stay with a doctor that disagrees so strongly with their pov about the health of your child?

 

I shopped around for my doctors, both for birthing and for my kids. I  drive 40 miles to my pediatrician because we have similar philosophies about my kid's healthcare. It's a huge priority. 

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#79 of 198 Old 11-27-2012, 07:00 PM
 
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Just out of curiosity, why does one have a doctor that they don't trust? I mean, outside of living in a place where your access to doctors is extremely limited, why would someone stay with a doctor that disagrees so strongly with their pov about the health of your child?

I shopped around for my doctors, both for birthing and for my kids. I  drive 40 miles to my pediatrician because we have similar philosophies about my kid's healthcare. It's a huge priority. 

Ita. I have never understood this phenomenon.
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Maybe we can poll MDC folks and get a larger sample size.

 

My extremely un-crunchy family practice doctor said "well, she's got the best nutrition anyhow" when my exclusively breastfed daughter refused solids until 14 months, and had no issue with my nursing her to age 3.5 (I actually nursed even longer than that, but we moved out of state and I left that practice).  That same family practice told me when I was pregnant that they would not do circs.


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#81 of 198 Old 11-27-2012, 08:01 PM
 
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Just out of curiosity, why does one have a doctor that they don't trust? 

I don't think many do.  shrug.gif

 

As people are arguing here, trust does not necessarily equal "follow all directives."  

 

I imagine that if people do not trust (in general) their doctor, they look for another one.  That can take time and some people have more choices than others.  


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#82 of 198 Old 11-27-2012, 08:05 PM
 
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Maybe we can poll MDC folks and get a larger sample size.

My pediatrician did a stint with the Peace Corps in Africa. She talks about how we have the luxury of different safe feeding options here, "but breast milk is absolutely the best thing for them!" She told me we should keep nursing as long as we were both happy with it. The other docs in her practice have said similar things when we've seen them. The on call nurse gave us careful instructions for combining nursing and gastrointestinal rest when ds had his first stomach virus. She referred us to an awesome LC when we needed one.

She also has non-breastfeeding related good points.
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#83 of 198 Old 11-27-2012, 09:05 PM
 
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That's fine. Everything I said was true for myself and the 100 other people in my class.
Perhaps you should have phrased your comment differently, since you categorically stated that doctors have no training in breastfeeding. Apparently this was based on a sample size of 2.

 

Our first pediatrician was not so good either. She insisted dd NEEDS to take these great vitamins from day 1 - because she was being breastfed only. IF she had been on formula, she obviouly wouldn't need any but 'breastmilk is deficient in many vitamins'. That was all said and prescribed before I even left the hospital after giving birth. At our second appointment at 1 week she insisted on those vitamins, because unlike breastmilk, formula has it all figured out. At our last appointment at 4 weeks she said dd is gaining her weight great. THEN my dh asked jokingly when is she going to stop wanting to nurse all the time, like literally every half hour at times. She paused, looked at the charts again and proclaimed that I'm feeding her way to much and she may become obese. I need to stoop feeding her on demand and give her Pedialyte ever other feeding. And then we kind of talked about vaccines, at the time we wanted to delay them and she got really upset, immediately claiming vaccines don't cause autism (I wasn't even discussing that in particular). We talked about ingredients, she claimed vaccines don't contain what they clearly contain (apparently she never read the package insert or was taught that at school). And then she fired us. So clearly, I have another pediatrician to ad to the mix. I'm just glad we didn't follow any of her advice. Don't get me wrong. She was a very sweet lady as long as everything was going accoding to the plan. But I honestly believe she gave me the wrong advice.


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Double post.


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#85 of 198 Old 11-27-2012, 11:39 PM
 
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Just out of curiosity, why does one have a doctor that they don't trust? I mean, outside of living in a place where your access to doctors is extremely limited, why would someone stay with a doctor that disagrees so strongly with their pov about the health of your child?

I shopped around for my doctors, both for birthing and for my kids. I  drive 40 miles to my pediatrician because we have similar philosophies about my kid's healthcare. It's a huge priority. 
I don't think you have t disagree strongly with your drs pov to take his/her advice with a grain of salt. Our son's ND moved away and left her practice about a year ago when DS was almost 6 months old. We'd carefully chosen her prior to his birth, and either DP or I are thrilled with her replacement. She's very young and and inexperienced, but more importantly, she's quick to prescribe abx and alarmist about many things.
I wouldn't say I trust her advice. I do value it, but it's just one source. She works in a practice with other NDs, and I do feel that if DS were very sick or hurt, I would be able to seek help and opinions from one of them, if not necessarily her, so I also value having established a relationship with the practice. We havent looked elsewhere for another dr partly because of the convenience factor (no other naturopathic practices nearby that have pediatric specialists) but also because we just do not go to the dr very often, so being in perfect sync with the dr is just not a huge priority for us. It's just one more resource we can access if need be.

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#86 of 198 Old 11-28-2012, 05:05 AM
 
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I don't think you have t disagree strongly with your drs pov to take his/her advice with a grain of salt. Our son's ND moved away and left her practice about a year ago when DS was almost 6 months old. We'd carefully chosen her prior to his birth, and either DP or I are thrilled with her replacement. She's very young and and inexperienced, but more importantly, she's quick to prescribe abx and alarmist about many things.
I wouldn't say I trust her advice. I do value it, but it's just one source. She works in a practice with other NDs, and I do feel that if DS were very sick or hurt, I would be able to seek help and opinions from one of them, if not necessarily her, so I also value having established a relationship with the practice. We havent looked elsewhere for another dr partly because of the convenience factor (no other naturopathic practices nearby that have pediatric specialists) but also because we just do not go to the dr very often, so being in perfect sync with the dr is just not a huge priority for us. It's just one more resource we can access if need be.

Sure, I agree. I take all advice with a grain of salt, from pretty much everyone. I take the parts that I find useful and then keep the rest of it in the back of my mind as knowledge about whatever topic being discussed. But, the reason I asked is that some people tend to think that doctors are idiots, or that doctors dont know anything about breastfeeding, etc. If you have that opinion of your doctor, get a new doctor.... It just doesnt make sense to me why people would keep a doctor that they thought was an idiot or that they didnt trust in the huge desicion making department as far as their kid's healthcare goes. 

 

For example, my doctor advises vaccines, but she also respects my decision as a parent to make that decision for my child. She feels that it is her job to give me the information, and let me make the decision. And that goes for pretty much everything having to do with my kid. I guess if I was just looking for a doctor to help me if DD was hurt or sick, I'd rely on our childrens hospital's ER. I dont need to maintain a relationship with a ped "just in case", I need to maintain a relationship with a ped so that my child has ongoing care. 

 

It's just a difference in the need/want for medical care and advice. I want someone to look at my kid every few months and tell me she's alright and that there are no problems (or if there are, address those concerns). 


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#87 of 198 Old 11-28-2012, 06:51 AM
 
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Before i had children, i never went to the doctor. I have been blessed with good health. Since having children, ive had to endure incompetencies from pediatricians and obgyns over and over again. I always go in with the attitude-i WANT to trust you, but hell, why do you  say such stupid things? 

 

Why do i use a ped that i dont trust? Because to get on wic, you need to have the  your childs lead tested which requires visit to the doctor.  

 

Right now, i am doing my best to find a ped i can trust, but they dont take medicaid.  I guess i should pay out of pocket. 

 

Also, like myself, my children have been blessed with good health, and the only reason to go to a doctor is for vaxes and well checks.

 

I agree that western medicine has its uses, and im all for it, but it certainly has its limitations.

 

Also, if a doctor has an opinion on a subject, especially a subject that is known to be contraversial, they could at least admit, that there is a contraversy, and they advocate  this particular position for these particular reasons.

 

Just be honest about it, dont TALK DOWN to me. Just because i  pushed a baby through my vagina and look a bit dishevelled and sleep deprived does not  mean i am an imbecile  (or that im not sure i can spell dishevelled)

 

I would love  doctor i can trust. And i have noticed they are a little more educated on breastfeeding now, especially docs who have had their own children.

 

I would rather see a naturpath for real health questions and that is definitely out of pocket.

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#88 of 198 Old 11-28-2012, 11:38 AM
 
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Where we live doctors come with practices, and you get who you get. It stinks.

Why stay with a bad doctor? Insurance/medicaid; no car; all practices; no partner support or even hindering from partner for finding new doc; change in beliefs, so doc that matched doesn't . Just a few possibilities.
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#89 of 198 Old 11-28-2012, 02:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pek64 View Post

Where we live doctors come with practices, and you get who you get. It stinks.
Why stay with a bad doctor? Insurance/medicaid; no car; all practices; no partner support or even hindering from partner for finding new doc; change in beliefs, so doc that matched doesn't . Just a few possibilities.

 

And often a doctor that you trust does something to break that trust.  Otherwise we would never hear about unnecessareans, birth rape, forceful retraction, etc.  If MDs were so trustworthy, why do so many of the MDC readers opt to birth unassisted or with a midwife?


A, jammin.gif mama to a boy (2005) and a girl (2009)
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#90 of 198 Old 11-28-2012, 03:43 PM
 
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The safety and wisdom of choosing unassisted birth has nothing to do with vaccines, but I'll just say it isn't a compelling argument against the medical establishment either.

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Carseat-checking (CPST) and WAH mama to a twelve-year-old girl.
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