Why Do People Follow Medical Authorities? - Page 5 - Mothering Forums

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#121 of 198 Old 11-29-2012, 04:27 PM
 
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Sample size seemed relevant to decision-making.  Sorry.

Yes, I suppose it is -- this shouldn't become a debate specifically about sample size but where relevant to trust it's ok.  


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#122 of 198 Old 11-29-2012, 04:43 PM
 
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Yes, I suppose it is -- this shouldn't become a debate specifically about sample size but where relevant to trust it's ok.  

I don't understand.  Why is this an unreasonable, off topic issue?  The topic of the thread is why people follow medical authorities.  I think it's very relevant to clarify if people are making decisions based on one bad or good experience versus some kind of systemic issue.

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#123 of 198 Old 11-29-2012, 05:20 PM
 
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Sample size relevant to the issue of trust is relevant so long as it is discussed in the spirit of trying to understand another's point of view. Derailing the thread to the point where we are only debating sample size is OT. Feel free to PM me for more information. 


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#124 of 198 Old 11-29-2012, 05:22 PM
 
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See post #108 for a good example of how to discuss sample size while maintaining the topic and discussion and understanding. 


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#125 of 198 Old 11-29-2012, 06:37 PM
 
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"Bashing" is saying things like "I know one (or two) doctors who give bad advice about breastfeeding; therefore, I conclude and state as fact that doctors don't know anything about breastfeeding". 

 

I tend to conclude that they generally give bad advice on certain subjects based on not only my experiences but the experiences of people I know (many who belong to a local AP/natural parenting group). 

 

I don't think they necessarily need to do extra studying in breastfeeding or co-sleeping to be good in their field; however it would be nice if they didn't give bad advice as "experts" to parents who don't know any better. 


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#126 of 198 Old 11-29-2012, 06:46 PM
 
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I take doctors, likes people, on a case by case basis. I've known good ones and bad ones. I probably tend to give them the benefit of the doubt, though, because I've known,ore good than bad. I was just talking to my mom today about a medical resident who saved my right leg. While I generally think orthopedic surgeons are kind of arrogant, I'll always be grateful for that one and his expertise.
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#127 of 198 Old 11-29-2012, 07:04 PM
 
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Well they tend to excel at fixing things like broken legs and poisonings. Acute problems. 


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#128 of 198 Old 11-29-2012, 07:07 PM
 
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In my experience that totally depends on the doctor. I agree there are areas where western medicine excels more than others, though.
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#129 of 198 Old 11-29-2012, 07:37 PM - Thread Starter
 
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My other problem is with doctors believing themselves to be parenting or feeding (nutrition) experts with minimal or no training. If they were honest about their limitations, and refer me to better trained individuals, I'd have more respect. I had no less than three separate doctors tell me I needed to put my baby on IsomilDF (spelling may be wrong) for a diarrhea caused by a virus. I kept repeating that I was breastfeeding, and they repeated themselves AS IF I HADN'T SPOKEN. It wouldn't have bothered me so much if they had at least acknowledged my words, but they didn't give any indication that I would be able to return to breastfeeding. In the end, I got my advice from a breastfeeding counselor (lactation consultat in training) who assured me that continuing to breastfeed was best. She was right. Twenty four hours later he was fine. Was it a risk? Yes. But if I hadn't taken that risk he might have been switched to formula at 14 weeks.

 

I have had a similar experience. At 9 months my eldest (breast fed) DD had a gastrointestinal virus and went the whole night without wetting her diaper. I was worried about dehydration so took her to the ER at a teaching hospital in Hong Kong. The resident told me to stop nursing her and give her congee (rice porridge). I knew better so ignored his advice, continued nursing her and she got better in a couple of days.


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#130 of 198 Old 11-29-2012, 07:50 PM
 
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One of my nephews had jaundice, and my sister's doctor told her not to nurse him and to give formula instead. Thank goodness she ignored her and kept on breastfeeding.

 

Currently she's in the south and says that a lactation consultant neighbor of hers can't wait to move out of the area because it's virtually impossible to get medical personnel on board with encouraging nursing. 


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#131 of 198 Old 11-29-2012, 07:53 PM
 
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Nevermind - not even worth it.

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#132 of 198 Old 11-29-2012, 07:54 PM
 
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I live in the south and I find stereotypes about how we're all ignorant rednecks really offensive.
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#133 of 198 Old 11-29-2012, 08:05 PM
 
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 Between the constant doctor bashing and making huge stereotypes about people who live in my part of the country, it's just so offensive that I cant take this seriously. 

 

Seriously, all Im hearing about is how all the doctors that you all know have all given bad advice and been terrible to you. What about all the doctors who save lives, heal people, help people, and spend a huge part of their lives learning how to do it? Most doctors dont get into the business of being a doctor so that they can patronize you and tell you how stupid you are. 

 

And as far as mountian dew goes, people all over the country make terrible parenting decisions. Let's not start picking on the south. There are people in rural Illinois that I know have done the same thing. "There are areas" all over the country that make bad decisions. And fwiw, there are at least two huge medical teaching hospitals that I know of in the south that are currently working to promote breastfeeding in hospitals and at health departments. 

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#134 of 198 Old 11-29-2012, 08:08 PM
 
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I live in the south and I find stereotypes about how we're all ignorant rednecks really offensive.

 

I've lived in the south.  It is not a stereotype that there are areas in the south that have health problems around consumption of Mountain Dew. 

 

I apologize if what was stated was offensive to anyone, but you're reading way too much into it.  No offense was intended.


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#135 of 198 Old 11-29-2012, 08:14 PM
 
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Stereotyping people by geography is offensive no matter how specifically vague you're being. People all over the country do stupid stuff. It is about those people and individual decisions they made, not where they live, so why brim that into it? If I made a similar comment involving race ("there are SOME purple people who . . .") it would be undeniably offensive. This is no different. Stop stereotyping people.
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#136 of 198 Old 11-29-2012, 08:18 PM
 
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Stereotyping people by geography is offensive no matter how specifically vague you're being. People all over the country do stupid stuff. It is about those people and individual decisions they made, not where they live, so why brim that into it? If I made a similar comment involving race ("there are SOME purple people who . . .") it would be undeniably offensive. This is no different. Stop stereotyping people.

 

Oh please.  It's not stereotyping to say that there are actually people who do this actual thing, and that it is a known issue.  It has nothing to do with race and everything to do with choices.  If I said that many women in Mongolia breastfeed their children well into adolescence, is that a stereotype?  Is cultural anthropology just a fancy term for stereotyping suddenly??

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#137 of 198 Old 11-29-2012, 08:19 PM
 
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I live in the south and I find stereotypes about how we're all ignorant rednecks really offensive.

 

Me too.

 

My (rural, Southern) family practice doctor encouraged exclusive breastfeeding and supported with extended nursing.


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#138 of 198 Old 11-29-2012, 08:22 PM
 
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I was being vague about my sister's location because I didn't want to reveal her personal information. She's an MDC member but very busy and so doesn't post much; hopefully someday she can talk about what happened herself.


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#139 of 198 Old 11-29-2012, 08:33 PM
 
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Seriously, all Im hearing about is how all the doctors that you all know have all given bad advice and been terrible to you. 

This thread is about trusting doctors.  It is hardly surprising that some people are going to come on and tell us why they do not trust doctors. 

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#140 of 198 Old 11-29-2012, 11:30 PM
 
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I take doctors, likes people, on a case by case basis. I've known good ones and bad ones. I probably tend to give them the benefit of the doubt, though, because I've known,ore good than bad. I was just talking to my mom today about a medical resident who saved my right leg. While I generally think orthopedic surgeons are kind of arrogant, I'll always be grateful for that one and his expertise.

I'm glad that you've known more good than bad. That explains why you give doctors the benefit of the doubt. I've known more bad than good, by at least a two thirds to one third ratio. That explains why I take what a doctor says with caution. We both are reasonable.
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#141 of 198 Old 11-30-2012, 12:32 AM
 
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I've had WIC and I've never known vaxes or well checks to be mandatory. Lead tests, yes. The nurse at the health department can do that. 

I feel like natural medical professionals get way less flack about their mistakes and attitudes than MD's do. I love my ped and my ob, but I think my chiropractor (and honestly, all of the chiropractors Ive ever met (totalling 6) is a quack. Just my opinion. 

I had an ob that was terrible before, and I dumped him for this ob. I interviewed peds in depth before choosing her, and got recommendations from everyone I knew beforehand. I have medicaid, and live in a rural place, but healthcare is a huge priority for us. Im not going to see a crappy doctor just because of location- Ill make sacrifices to drive to the doctor that is on the same page with me. 

Ok. More devil's advocate.

If there are so many good doctors, why do you have to make sacrifices to get to be seen by a good doc?

If there are so many good doctors, why do you have to talk to everyone you know to get recommendations?

If there are so many good and well informed doctors, why are there places like MDC where folks can get help with breastfeeding issues, sleeping issues, vomiting issues, etc?
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#142 of 198 Old 11-30-2012, 12:43 AM
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I have removed one post of personal attack and issued an infraction to the poster and removed her from the thread. If you are going to post, please talk about the subject and not the person. 


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#143 of 198 Old 11-30-2012, 06:56 AM
 
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I'm glad that you've known more good than bad. That explains why you give doctors the benefit of the doubt. I've known more bad than good, by at least a two thirds to one third ratio. That explains why I take what a doctor says with caution. We both are reasonable.

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#144 of 198 Old 11-30-2012, 07:22 AM
 
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#145 of 198 Old 11-30-2012, 07:39 AM
 
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If I need legal advice I ask a lawyer. If I need advice on money issues I'll talk to someone who is an expert in that.

 

 If I need medical advice I like to talk to a medical expert. It's as simple as that for me.

 

 Medical professionals have spent years studying how the body works and the various problems it can have. I consider myself a smart person, but I do not think I can catch up with them after a little bit of reading of webMD (or similar), although it can help to arrive at the appointment informed to persuade them to talk to me like an adult! ;) 

 

I do think it's a crying shame how little trust many people have in the medical industry. I think that's a massive problem, and something I hope the current training for medical professionals is addressing. 

 

I will probably respond more as I finish reading the thread. :)

 

I have had a very unusual life with an amount and variety of trauma almost never studied. They won't study people like me because it is too hard. There are too many variables. I have been in court ordered therapy since I was three. I have spent a lot of time in lobbies and waiting rooms. My brother was hit by a car when I was eight. I spent many months not enrolled in any kind of school just sitting around long-term-care hospitals. I have read a rather ridiculous amount about the brain. No, I have not been to medical school.

 

I have friends who have been in grad school over the past ten years. I spend hundreds of hours every year reading medical journals about research on my field of trauma. Because when I pick a random doctor they have no fucking clue how to treat me. Finding therapists is nightmarish.

 

No, I don't trust medical authorities. They know what they know but expected to be deferred to on areas outside their specialty. No thanks. I have read hundreds of medical textbooks on neuroscience and neurobiology. No really. I get fucking pissed off when a fucking doctor talks down to me.

 

I trust individual people to the degree that they earn my trust. No I don't trust an industry that has no interest in finding out why I'm not exactly like everyone else.

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#146 of 198 Old 11-30-2012, 07:44 AM
 
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Ok. More devil's advocate.
If there are so many good doctors, why do you have to make sacrifices to get to be seen by a good doc?
If there are so many good doctors, why do you have to talk to everyone you know to get recommendations?
If there are so many good and well informed doctors, why are there places like MDC where folks can get help with breastfeeding issues, sleeping issues, vomiting issues, etc?

 

I think this is starting to play back into the kind of black and white thinking that originated the question - the issue of absolute blind trust vs. total suspicion and contempt.

 

There are good doctors - you may have to look for them.  Just like there are good midwives, and you may have to hunt for them, too - or drive far away (common on here).  The point of that, to me, was to assert that those who are unhappy with a care provider COULD possibly be very happy with another MD.  There is no need to write off an entire profession, when the differences between care providers are often individual, ykwim?

 

The argument isn't whether doctors are infallible, so there is no need to point out that there are doctors who are worth avoiding or whose advice leaves something to be desired.  I think everyone agrees on that point.  Not all natural health professionals are rockstars either.

 

I think the post about having 2/3 negative experiences vs. 2/3 good experiences hit closer to the heart of it - and some of that is also confirmation bias, once it gets to that point.


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#147 of 198 Old 11-30-2012, 07:54 AM
 
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I will probably respond more as I finish reading the thread. :)

 

I have had a very unusual life with an amount and variety of trauma almost never studied. They won't study people like me because it is too hard. There are too many variables. I have been in court ordered therapy since I was three. I have spent a lot of time in lobbies and waiting rooms. My brother was hit by a car when I was eight. I spent many months not enrolled in any kind of school just sitting around long-term-care hospitals. I have read a rather ridiculous amount about the brain. No, I have not been to medical school.

 

I have friends who have been in grad school over the past ten years. I spend hundreds of hours every year reading medical journals about research on my field of trauma. Because when I pick a random doctor they have no fucking clue how to treat me. Finding therapists is nightmarish.

 

No, I don't trust medical authorities. They know what they know but expected to be deferred to on areas outside their specialty. No thanks. I have read hundreds of medical textbooks on neuroscience and neurobiology. No really. I get fucking pissed off when a fucking doctor talks down to me.

 

I trust individual people to the degree that they earn my trust. No I don't trust an industry that has no interest in finding out why I'm not exactly like everyone else.

 

I completely agree about medical professionals overstepping their bounds - I wouldn't trust an environmental lawyer to represent me in a criminal trial.  I also totally agree about trusting individual people to the degree they earn your trust - I think some of us are saying we have doctors who fall into that category, on a doctor by doctor, person by person basis.  

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#148 of 198 Old 11-30-2012, 07:58 AM
 
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How are well checks and vaxes quasi-mandatory?

 

There was a debate in this forum (but not this thread) about whether obligating vaccinations to attend schools amounts to 'mandatory' or not. I said 'quasi mandatory', that means, almost mandatory, or, you could infer, as good as mandatory, or you could infer, not completely, but certainly almost mandatory. If your'e interested in the finer points of that particularly debate refer to that thread.   Up to you to decide whether or not the school requirement for vaxes  which are obtained from a medical doctor, amounts to 'mandatory visit to the doctor' or not. I send my kids to school, so yes, that means mandatory for me. But that is OT to this thread.  I brought it up to illustrate that there may seem to be more 'doctor bashing'  because there is a requirement to see doctors for many things, but not the same requirement to see alternative practitioners. Therefore,   doctors, indeed should be held to higher standard.

 

As a result, i disagree that there is a double standard  referred to earlier in this thread.

 

As for WIC and lead tests,  the nurses will do the lead test, but only if you already have a relationship with their pediatrician.

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#149 of 198 Old 11-30-2012, 08:04 AM
 
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Ok. More devil's advocate.
If there are so many good doctors, why do you have to make sacrifices to get to be seen by a good doc?
If there are so many good doctors, why do you have to talk to everyone you know to get recommendations?
If there are so many good and well informed doctors, why are there places like MDC where folks can get help with breastfeeding issues, sleeping issues, vomiting issues, etc?

 

Absolutely.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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#150 of 198 Old 11-30-2012, 08:20 AM
 
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I have a bunch of work to do today but somehow got sucked into reading this whole thread.  I'll throw in my two cents simply because I might have a different perspective (if not already stated somewhere here).  A little background:  I'm an attorney, not a doctor, but I think there are a lot of similarities between the two professions in terms of ethics, professionalism and the requirement to stay informed and knowledgable on issues as it pertains to one's practice.  I also think there are engrained cultural biases that play into peoples' perceptions of both.

 

Both require a significant amount of "client" contact.  Herein, I think is the biggest challenge.  When I was in law school (and I imagine that it is the same for medical/dental/other students), the focus was on learning the theories, the law, the consequences, etc.  Law school was purely academic.  I came out of law school with proverbial pistols loaded ready to apply all that "knowledge" that I had aquired in law school.  Problem was, no one had taught me anything about the most important aspect of my practice:  the client.  I understand now that the purpose of law school, more or less, is to provide the foundation.  Upon entering the profession, I was fortunate in that I had some great mentors who guided me in the fine art of client management.  One of the harsh realities that I learned was:  all clients are different and have different needs.  One thing that they do have in common, though, is that they want the best result for their particular circumstances.  This means that I can't apply a cookie cutter law school approach to everyone's needs.  The best lawyer, in my opinion, asks the client a lot of questions.  A lot of questions.  This is the only way that you can proceed to get the best result for your client. 

 

I've seen the same approach in the medical profession.  We actually have a great pediatrician who listens to us and spends time discussing how our desires and options can work best.  This is what makes a great doctor...someone who doesn't take a cookie cutter approach to every patient and who respects his/her patients.  I've had a couple of distasteful experiences with other doctors who seem to not give a rat's rear end.  The ability to communicate with the client/patient and the ability to tailor your practice to the clients' needs is paramount.  Personally I think that a lot people in the licensed professions never learn this (I can think of a number of lawyers that I've run across that have the exact problem). 

 

That all being said, I really do think that the problem lies in the professionals' inability to move past the academic setting into the real world and all its nuances.  One thing I know is that I have to keep learning.  Law, like medicine, is not a static thing.  There are some truths that don't change, but even in my profession the application of what I do is constantly evolving. I think there is this engrained perception that people in the licensed professions are smart, and therefore should have the last word (between:  I'm not implying that I'm smart...LOL!).  But, I really do think that as rapidly as the world is changing, the academically smart people need to do a better job of catching up with the program.  Just my unsolicited two cents!

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Vaccines , Vaccinations

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