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#61 of 107 Old 12-05-2012, 01:23 PM
 
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http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2008/07/28/prl20728.htm

 

 

Critics of drugmakers' marketing techniques greeted the new code with deep skepticism.

 

The changes are "completely cosmetic" and "intended purely to fool the public into believing that PhRMA is taking this issue seriously," said Daniel J. Carlat, MD [a former drug firm-paid speaker].

 

"Pens, Post-it notes and mugs have never been the focus of critics of industry marketing tactics," he said in an e-mail. "That is chump change compared to the platters of food brought in to feed the entire office staff, which is done to cement a good relationship with the doctor and to ensure continuous access in order to deliver sales pitches."

 
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#62 of 107 Old 12-05-2012, 01:39 PM
 
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I would respectfully disagree with this.  I think most people would like to think that they would not be swayed by a coffee mug or pen, but there has been some pretty good research done on this.  Doctors truly are influenced by the swag.  Similarly, there is a huge influence on prescribing habits when doctors keep free samples of medications in their office.  Those doctors prescribe more expensive, name brand meds.

Which is why I haven't allowed drug reps to detail in my office since 2007. smile.gif
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It's too bad that the "free lunches" are still in practice, though. (Per the link above). The swag was just a brazen admission to patients that they were going on. We were discussing a few threads ago about why patients weren't trusting their doctors. Speaking from the patient's side of the exam table, I think that these kinds of pharma-doc relationships have undermined the trust and credibility and trust that patients should ideally have in their doctors. Obviously that's not the only factor, but it's a pretty important one.

I don't think that profits from non-vaxxing can fairly be compared to profits from vaxxing. Nobody makes any money when I decline the flu shot. And not all of us alterna-vaxxers are interested in whatever the hell those magic potions are that Mercola sells. (I don't even like or visit that site).

ETA: WTH's going on with that quote feature? Oh well...

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#63 of 107 Old 12-05-2012, 02:25 PM
 
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I was having the same problem with the quote feature, turrquesa.
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#64 of 107 Old 12-05-2012, 07:02 PM
 
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And it's true, there's been a ban on this kind of stuff since 2009.  If anyone is seeing anything in their doctor's office, it's old.

 

2009 isn't that long ago. And it's only a voluntary ban. 

 

 

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 Speaking from the patient's side of the exam table, I think that these kinds of pharma-doc relationships have undermined the trust and credibility and trust that patients should ideally have in their doctors. Obviously that's not the only factor, but it's a pretty important one.
 

 

 

Yes. It certainly has undermined doctors' credibility in my eyes the times I've seen this junk in their offices.

 

So much so that I've paid out-of-pocket to see holistic doctors rather than use my insurance to cover the mediocre ones.

 

It's a good thing I had the money to do it. I feel sorry for people who don't have a choice. 


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A voluntary ban actually means more to me.
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Well it looks like some doctors and the pharmaceutical and restaurant industries in Massachusetts didn't like it so much.

 

 

Ban on pharma meals for physicians overturned

Massachusetts, the first state to ban all gifts from industry, says “modest” food and drinks are OK.


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And you're absolutely sure that "holistic" doctors never get courted by supplement manufacturers, and don't profit in any way from things they sell in their offices?


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LOL. I'd welcome seeing an "ECHINACEA HEALS!!" poster in their office, and samples of vitamin C.

 

But sadly, they seem to just have bland posters of waterfalls or sunsets (at least the ones I've been to) and no samples to hand out.

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#69 of 107 Old 12-06-2012, 04:32 AM
 
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There is not a ban on meals. There is a price limit- I think it's 15.00

I truly think its ironic that you're ok with a "holistic" doctor prescribing something that he then sells you. To me, this is completely unethical.

I have a patient who saw a local naturopath. She saw her once, and came out with $1200 worth of supplement to treat a by cm of conditions that she didn't have, including Lyme disease.

The only condition she does have is a severe anxiety disorder, which the naturopath complete took advantage of. So, please don't tell me they're not getting rich off selling things in their office. $1200 for one visit and supplements. You know how much a general surgeon makes for doing a cholecystectomy? Under $500. And that's for performing surgery on someone and providing the next 90 days of care.

A GYN makes about $1000, for delivering a baby AND proving 9 months of care before and 6 weeks after.
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Originally Posted by WildKingdom View Post

There is not a ban on meals. There is a price limit- I think it's 15.00

 

As far as I'm concerned, that's fifteen bucks too many. I'm glad that some medical students and doctors with integrity also think so:

 

Quote:

Medical students wanted ban upheld

Not everyone in medicine is pleased with the change. A coalition of nearly 100 medical students, residents and academic physicians wrote legislative leaders and the governor in a bid to retain the state’s gift ban in its entirety.

 

 

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Originally Posted by WildKingdom View Post
I truly think its ironic that you're ok with a "holistic" doctor prescribing something that he then sells you. 

 

My doctor is primarily an MD, and AFAIK only sells salivary cortisol tests for his patients' convenience, since most HMOs don't cover the cost. It's about $125; you can get them online for slightly cheaper.

 

Quote:

I have a patient who saw a local naturopath. She saw her once, and came out with $1200 worth of supplement 

 

 

But she didn't have to buy them from the naturopath.

 

In any case, one of the reasons to see a naturopath in the first place is to get advice on what supplements to take.

 

They have access to fancier versions of vitamins and herbs. But of course you're free as a patient to find bargain versions of the recommendations. 

 

Quote:

The only condition she does have is a severe anxiety disorder, which the naturopath complete took advantage of.

 

It's too bad if she felt that way, but on the bright side taking vitamins and herbs as commonly recommended won't kill you like Vioxx, give you liver damage like Vicodin and Percoset and many others, cause you to temporarily forget who you are and where you are like Lipitor, damage your children's reproductive organs like DES, etc., etc.

Which leads me back to Dr. Tenpenny's quote; when you look at the list of problems and "side" effects that FDA-approved drugs have caused, it's easy to see why she said that.

 

 

Quote:
$1200 for one visit and supplements. You know how much a general surgeon makes for doing a cholecystectomy? Under $500. And that's for performing surgery on someone and providing the next 90 days of care.

A GYN makes about $1000, for delivering a baby AND proving 9 months of care before and 6 weeks after.
 
 
Hmm, but for some reason medical schools are not losing students...who think they won't be making money after graduation (and this is WITH the hefty student loans they're saddled with, another scam that's OT). 

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Originally Posted by Chicharronita View Post

As far as I'm concerned, that's fifteen bucks too many. I'm glad that some medical students and doctors with integrity also think so:




It's too bad if she felt that way, but on the bright side taking vitamins and herbs as commonly recommended won't kill you like Vioxx, give you liver damage like Vicodin and Percoset and many others, cause you to temporarily forget who you are and where you are like Lipitor, damage your children's reproductive organs like DES, etc., etc.


Which leads me back to Dr. Tenpenny's quote; when you look at the list of problems and "side" effects that FDA-approved drugs have caused, it's easy to see why she said that.


You sure no one is dying or being harmed by herbal meds and vitamins?
http://whatstheharm.net/herbalremedies.html
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#72 of 107 Old 12-06-2012, 12:35 PM
 
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Herbal remedies are either a) ineffective and therefore unable to cause harm or b) effective, and therefore able to cause harm.  Can't have it both ways.

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#73 of 107 Old 12-06-2012, 12:52 PM
 
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Herbal remedies are either a) ineffective and therefore unable to cause harm or b) effective, and therefore able to cause harm.  Can't have it both ways.

duh.gif Oh really....

 

Here is just one, the well known spice cumin:

 

 

 

Quote:
2010, research published in the journal Food Chemistry and Toxicologydemonstrated that cumin has blood sugar lowering properties comparable to the drug glibenclamide (known in the US as glyburide), with the additional benefit (not conferred by pharmaceutical intervention) that it also lowered oxidative stress and inhibited the advanced glycated end products (AGE) which are implicated in the pathogenesis of diabetic microvascular complications.

 It has also been show to help, bacterial infections, Candida (yeast) infections, cataracts, cancer (cervical), dental plaque, diabetes, food-borne pathogens, immune function, fertility, memory disorders, morphine dependence/tolerance, osteoporosis and thrombosis (clot). You can check all the references in this article.


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You sure no one is dying or being harmed by herbal meds and vitamins?
http://whatstheharm.net/herbalremedies.html

 

I don't have time to wade through all the articles, but I doubt most of these people were taking them as they've been used successfully for thousands of years (as opposed to modern drugs). 

 

Most of the ones I've read about ephedra are about people definitely NOT using them safely (sheesh, are people just smarter in China when it comes to herbs?).

 

I did read this one:

 

Giving up hope of miracle, man buries his slain toddlers

 

Quote:

Beginning at age 13, she said, she began a repeated pattern of failed suicide attempts. She was diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic and for some time took an anti-psychotic medication, which she dropped in favor of herbal remedies.

 

 

Your site says she took St. John's Wort. Although it wasn't specifically mentioned in the article, I believe she took it. But St. John's Wort is mainly indicated for low to moderate depression, not major issues like PS.

 

And if her "medication treatment for this was very successful" as your site claims, why would she have dumped it in favor of an herb that's not even indicated for her condition? Could it be be because of "side" effects?


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Originally Posted by WildKingdom View Post

 
You sure no one is dying or being harmed by herbal meds and vitamins?
http://whatstheharm.net/herbalremedies.html

And a heck of a lot more people are killed by properly prescribed pharmaceutical drugs every year, with 2.2 million hospitalized and 106,000  of those killed. I'd take my chances with herbs.

 

http://www.leadingcauseofdeathprescriptiondrugs.com/

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Herbal remedies are either a) ineffective and therefore unable to cause harm or b) effective, and therefore able to cause harm.  Can't have it both ways.

 

 

Well of course they are effective and can cause harm, if not taken as indicated. It just takes common sense. 

 

Unfortunately, a lot of sick people who are treated with medications with undesirable "side" effects wait until they are really desperate and tired of them to change course, and may not be in the right frame of mind to properly research.

 

Or in the case with advanced stages of cancer, waiting too long to make a switch (then when they do, and die anyway, their deaths are conveniently blamed on the treatment). 

 

The other problem is that people think "a little is good so a lot must be better."

 

I have cured myself of many problems, including chronic UTIs that I suffered with for years. It took a five dollar bottle of magical sugar pills to put an immediate stop to symptoms, and then taking some more along with herbs to cure myself permanently. 

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Doctors were perfectly happy with prescribing me antibiotics and Pyridium every six months, and me being young and not knowing any better, took them. 

 

I can't blame them for giving me the only treatment they could with their limited knowledge; but I am glad that I learned about other alternatives.

 

I'm pretty sure this is also the kind of thing Dr. Tenpenny is talking about. UTIs are pretty common in young women.


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There is not a ban on meals. There is a price limit- I think it's 15.00
I truly think its ironic that you're ok with a "holistic" doctor prescribing something that he then sells you. To me, this is completely unethical.
I have a patient who saw a local naturopath. She saw her once, and came out with $1200 worth of supplement to treat a by cm of conditions that she didn't have, including Lyme disease.
The only condition she does have is a severe anxiety disorder, which the naturopath complete took advantage of. So, please don't tell me they're not getting rich off selling things in their office. $1200 for one visit and supplements. You know how much a general surgeon makes for doing a cholecystectomy? Under $500. And that's for performing surgery on someone and providing the next 90 days of care.
A GYN makes about $1000, for delivering a baby AND proving 9 months of care before and 6 weeks after.

 

Hmmmm I just attended a pharmacuetical dinner at a lavish steak house last night. I can assure you my meal was WAYYYYYYY more than $15.00. Had I gone to that restaurant and ordered what I ordered off the menu, including the alcohol I consumed, my meal would have been about $100.00 (including booze)

 

I know quite a few ND's. None of them do business like this and none of them are anywhere close to getting rich. Just as there are quality MD's out there  and unethical ones, such is the case for folks in the "alternative" medicine arena. 


If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#79 of 107 Old 12-06-2012, 01:29 PM
 
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If I shut up, is there a chance I could be invited to a pharma-paid steak dinner? I could sure use one sometimes. I'm a pretty cheap date; I don't drink alcohol.  ;-)


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Hmmmm I just attended a pharmacuetical dinner at a lavish steak house last night. I can assure you my meal was WAYYYYYYY more than $15.00. Had I gone to that restaurant and ordered what I ordered off the menu, including the alcohol I consumed, my meal would have been about $100.00 (including booze)

I know quite a few ND's. None of them do business like this and none of them are anywhere close to getting rich. Just as there are quality MD's out there  and unethical ones, such is the case for folks in the "alternative" medicine arena. 

Um, I'm morbidly curious. What were you doing there at that dinner? bigeyes.gif

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Pretty sure she's sai before she's a pharmacist.
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#83 of 107 Old 12-06-2012, 03:20 PM
 
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Marnica, please don't take this the wrong way, but I hope you paid for your own steak. hide.gif

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Hmmmm I just attended a pharmacuetical dinner at a lavish steak house last night. I can assure you my meal was WAYYYYYYY more than $15.00. Had I gone to that restaurant and ordered what I ordered off the menu, including the alcohol I consumed, my meal would have been about $100.00 (including booze)

 

I know quite a few ND's. None of them do business like this and none of them are anywhere close to getting rich. Just as there are quality MD's out there  and unethical ones, such is the case for folks in the "alternative" medicine arena. 

 

I'll take your word for it.  As I said before, I haven't participated in any such shenanigans since 2007.

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#85 of 107 Old 12-07-2012, 07:33 AM
 
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I have never said I was a Pharmacist. I am a mental health professional. No Turquesa I did not pay for my steak. Do I have feelings about attending these dinners? - yes, which is why I rarely go. This was the first one I've been to in years in fact. Many of my collegues go regularly just for the free food.  I was attending the dinner to get some CEU's for my license (you don't just eat, there is a presentation as well). I suppose I could have gone and not eaten anything in protest, but I was hungry yummy.gif


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Sorry marnica, my mistake.
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This is off-topic and not about Marnica's profession or eating habits, so thank you for laying off of her so that I don't really have to moderate posts about steak! lol.gif
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#88 of 107 Old 12-07-2012, 08:57 AM
 
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I have never said I was a Pharmacist. I am a mental health professional. No Turquesa I did not pay for my steak. Do I have feelings about attending these dinners? - yes, which is why I rarely go. This was the first one I've been to in years in fact. Many of my collegues go regularly just for the free food.  I was attending the dinner to get some CEU's for my license (you don't just eat, there is a presentation as well). I suppose I could have gone and not eaten anything in protest, but I was hungry yummy.gif

lol.gif Fair enough! One of these days, I'll have to pick your brain on the grossly off-topic subject of pharma influence on DSM-V...

ETA: Bringing this back on topic, I've heard anecdotally that doctors in my area have a hard time finding CME opportunities that don't have competing interests connected to them. I find this troubling.

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n
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lol.gif Fair enough! One of these days, I'll have to pick your brain on the grossly off-topic subject of pharma influence on DSM-V...
ETA: Bringing this back on topic, I've heard anecdotally that doctors in my area have a hard time finding CME opportunities that don't have competing interests connected to them. I find this troubling.
honestly I find that hard to believe. It's very easy to find online cme that has no competing interests. I have to do 50 hours a year and I've never had trouble.
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#90 of 107 Old 12-07-2012, 01:46 PM
 
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Thank you, Mosaic! I absolutely agree with you! Dr. Tenpenny did not post here on Mothering.com, but was slammed harshly for her opinion. What I love most about this site is the civility with which discussions are held. Clearly some subjects lead to impassioned reactions, but typing in a comment or reply is entirely voluntary. All readers, PLEASE keep your tone civil. There are plenty of other places where you can vent your spleen in vivid technicolor detail, but there are VERY few places where you can express an unpopular opinion without being heckled and insulted viciously by those who do not share your opinion. I promise to keep my own harsh reactions off of Mothering.com.
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