Evidence of govenrment cover-up re: vaccines and autism - Page 7 - Mothering Forums
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#181 of 281 Old 12-11-2012, 09:56 PM
 
pers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 497
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicharronita View Post

 

Yes. I don't know how any of them can live with themselves when virtually nothing they do helps people with myriad chronic health problems besides giving some kind of drug with "side" effects that can be just as bad as the problem.


Cooky? Mmmm sounds tasty. yummy.gif

 

 

Well, yeah, it's got to be frustrating when you can't cure something.  However, many of those drugs do as they are supposed to though and improve overall quality of life and longevity.  Do you think it was any less frustrating dealing with illness back before when doctors didn't have something to offer them that would likely help?

 

Or consider chronic illnesses that doctors can help very well.  The average life expectancy of a patient with cystic fibrosis has more than doubled over just the last thirty or so years and is expected to continue to rise.  Someday gene therapy may even offer a cure.  A diagnoses of diabetes used to mean certain death within a few months or, at most, a couple years of diagnoses. Now doctors still can't cure diabetes, but type one diabetics have pretty much the same life expectancy as non-diabetics.  

 

Not to mention acute illness. My grandmother came very close to dying from an ear infection as a small child and was left with permanent damage and partial hearing loss. I can not begin to imagine how much agony she must have been in.  Nowadays such an infection would be nipped in the bud with a course of antibiotics.  

 

Every day, doctors see parents who don't know if their child's ongoing or different than they have experienced before illness is something to worry about or not and reassure them that the kid just needs a little more rest and time or, less commonly but more important, finds that it is something serious and treats it. Every day doctors around the world catch cancer and other potentially deadly illnesses/conditions in the early stages when they are still treatable/survivable.  Every day doctors diagnose physical abnormalities or delays in development in children at the ages where intervention can be most effective but parents may not have notice it yet. 

 

The list could go on and on and on.  The idea that all doctors have to offer are vaccines and useless drugs that cause more problems than they solve is completely absurd.  

pers is offline  
#182 of 281 Old 12-12-2012, 04:49 AM
 
WildKingdom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 684
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicharronita View Post

 

Yes. I don't know how any of them can live with themselves when virtually nothing they do helps people with myriad chronic health problems besides giving some kind of drug with "side" effects that can be just as bad as the problem.

 

 


Cooky? Mmmm sounds tasty. yummy.gif

 

Honestly, it sounds like you are coming from an extremely privileged place where you and your loved ones enjoy generally good health.

 

Maybe it's time for a picture tutorial.

 

When is the last time you saw someone who looks like this:

 

 

400

 

That's a patient with end-stage AIDS.  The last time I saw someone like that was about 11 years ago.  Antiretroviral therapy has come so far that you just don't see that anymore in people with access to treatment.  My current HIV patients are doing great- you wouldn't be able to pick them out of a room full of people.

 

When is the last time you saw a hand that looks like this?

 

 

700

 

That is psoriatic arthritis mutilans- a destructive type of psoriatic arthritis.  You've probably never seen it.  That is because the disease modifying drugs and biologic drugs now available to manage destructive types of arthritis are nothing short of a miracle.  

 

What do you think of this chest x-ray?

 

 

700

 

Those are called "cannonball mets."  It is testicular cancer that has metastasized to the lung.  Unfortunately, I have seen chest xrays like this recently.  However, 20 years ago a patient with the chest x-ray would have been dead in a few months.  Today, patients like this are cured.  Not put into remission. Cured.  Young guys, with death hanging over their head, going on to live a totally normal life.

 

 

So, how do I live with my self?

 

Very, very well, thank you.  Every morning I get to go to a job I love where I help people immensely.  Even when I can't "fix" them, I am there to hold their hand and cry with them.  Every night I get to go to sleep knowing I've made a difference in people's lives.  I'm blessed. 

WildKingdom is offline  
#183 of 281 Old 12-12-2012, 05:19 AM
 
pek64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 2,502
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
For every example of healing and helping there can be an example of misdiagnosis or some other harm. One of my nephews wears hearing aids in both ears because chronic ear infections (treated with antibiotics) left him partially deaf. He, too, suffered pain, much like pers' grandmother. And there's the woman on Oprah, thanking Dr Oz for giving her the courage to stand up for herself and tell her surgeon she thought he had left some cancer behind after performing a mastectomy. It turned out he had left ALL of the cancer behind.

Anecdotal evidence is available on both sides.
pek64 is offline  
#184 of 281 Old 12-12-2012, 05:53 AM
 
Rrrrrachel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,154
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Except the examples aren't one to one. Doctors help and even cure way more people than they harm. I can't believe we're even having this conversation.
Rrrrrachel is offline  
#185 of 281 Old 12-12-2012, 05:55 AM
 
kathymuggle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,889
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 98 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adaline'sMama View Post

 These comments are precisely why I feel like so many people who are researching vax wind up thinking that anti/delayed vax people are cooky. 

 

Or perhaps it is because the other side keeps re-inforcing anything they see as kookiness?

 

And kookiness has extended to delayed now, as well?

 

I think we must be reading different forums….turquesa, marnica, mammunchkin, rachelmama and several others I am sure I am missing friggin rock  love.gifwhen it comes to discussing vaccines logically….  and they are all sel/del or non-vax.

 

In any event, someone can be kooky in some ways and still be right (just as someone can be bitchy and still be right, not know how to spell, but is good at math, etc, etc).  

Turquesa likes this.

There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

Book and herb loving mama to 1 preteen and 2 teens (when did that happen?).  We travel, go to school, homeschool, live rurally, eat our veggies, spend too much time...

kathymuggle is online now  
#186 of 281 Old 12-12-2012, 05:58 AM
 
Rrrrrachel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,154
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
You're right Kathy. Most of the mamas around here are not kooky. Unfortunately the ones that are are often the most memorable.
kathymuggle likes this.
Rrrrrachel is offline  
#187 of 281 Old 12-12-2012, 06:39 AM
 
pek64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 2,502
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

Except the examples aren't one to one. Doctors help and even cure way more people than they harm. I can't believe we're even having this conversation.

This is an unsubstantiated remark.
pek64 is offline  
#188 of 281 Old 12-12-2012, 11:17 AM
 
Marnica's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,585
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

Except the examples aren't one to one. Doctors help and even cure way more people than they harm. I can't believe we're even having this conversation.

I'm not saying that I think conventional medicine doesn't have it's place or that I think that all doctors are bad. I'm one of those people (and others in my family) that prefer alternative medicine and have found incredible success with curing things when we have been told that things couldn't be cured and the answer was a pill or surgery. However I also know in certain circumstances for certain things allopathic medicine is the way to go and I have happily used it when I have needed it - fully informing myself of the risks and benefits beforehand. Its just not my first go to for most problems. I prefer to try other things first. The fact is that conventional medicine does harm alot of people and that should not be brushed aside and is worthy of a conversation IMO. Medical errors are the third leading cause of death in this country and that doesn't even include the number of people harmed by pharmaceutical drugs taken as prescribed. 

BeckyBird likes this.

If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

Marnica is offline  
#189 of 281 Old 12-12-2012, 11:33 AM
 
Rrrrrachel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,154
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marnica View Post

I'm not saying that I think conventional medicine doesn't have it's place or that I think that all doctors are bad. I'm one of those people (and others in my family) that prefer alternative medicine and have found incredible success with curing things when we have been told that things couldn't be cured and the answer was a pill or surgery. However I also know in certain circumstances for certain things allopathic medicine is the way to go and I have happily used it when I have needed it - fully informing myself of the risks and benefits beforehand. Its just not my first go to for most problems. I prefer to try other things first. The fact is that conventional medicine does harm alot of people and that should not be brushed aside and is worthy of a conversation IMO. Medical errors are the third leading cause of death in this country and that doesn't even include the number of people harmed by pharmaceutical drugs taken as prescribed. 

I mostly agree with that.
Rrrrrachel is offline  
#190 of 281 Old 12-12-2012, 01:02 PM
 
WildKingdom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 684
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

I mostly agree with that.

I do too. It's just Chicha's assertion that doctors do nothing but give vaccines and that she doesn't "know how they can live with themselves" that I think is completely over the top.
CatsCradle and Imakcerka like this.
WildKingdom is offline  
#191 of 281 Old 12-12-2012, 04:00 PM
 
Dakotacakes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 152
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Where does the stat that medical errors are the third leading cause of death come from? I don't doubt thehre are too many but I can't find that in the top twenty for causes of death.
Dakotacakes is online now  
#192 of 281 Old 12-12-2012, 04:23 PM
 
Turquesa's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 4,050
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 29 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakotacakes View Post

Where does the stat that medical errors are the third leading cause of death come from? I don't doubt thehre are too many but I can't find that in the top twenty for causes of death.

The "third leading cause" stat I believe comes from Dr. Mercola's site.

I'm skeptical that it's that high, but as you said, there are too many cases. I'm sorry that I can't C &P right now, but read Dr. Marty Makary's recent article on wsjonline.com, How to Stop Hospitals from Killing Us. He claims that enough Americans die annually of iatrogenic causes to fill 5 jumbo jets. I've queued his new book for library checkout, (I'm too big of a cheapskate for bookstores lol.gif)

Holy off-topic-ness!

ETA: Again, I'm sorry for the lack of a C&P link, but www.patientsafetyfocus.com, a consumer advocacy group, cites an IOM report listing medical errors as the 8th leading cause of death is the US, higher than car accidents.

ETA: I just checked on Merocla's source, a 2000 article citing an IOM report that lists 106K deaths and includes pharmaceuticals. I'll have to explore this further...in my infinite spare time. lol.gif

In God we trust; all others must show data. selectivevax.gifsurf.gifteapot2.GIFintactivist.gif
Turquesa is offline  
#193 of 281 Old 12-12-2012, 04:35 PM
 
CatsCradle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: New York City
Posts: 2,006
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by pek64 View Post


This is an unsubstantiated remark.

Then I suggest that we interview/poll the 300 million plus people in the U.S. to get a "real" result.  It is the only way for this ridiculous conversation about who and what and when people suffer under "medical" care to end.  

 

Not directed to you, Pek, but to the spirit of the thread in general:  my mother is alive today because doctors detected her breast cancer early.  She would have been dead 30 years ago if the same thing would have happened then.  My dad, a specialized dentist, makes teeth every day for people who have lost half their faces due to oral cancer (and I have seen pictures).  I'm still alive today because some mental health professionals were able to identify my mental health issues and help me maintain my sanity (as in, I can get up every morning and still function and am not pointing a gun at my head).  This idea that health professionals only care about injecting people with drugs is totally offensive to me.  I'm an attorney and see plenty of personal injury claims filed against medical professionals, but in the big picture, the claims are minute compared to breach of contract claims an other claims involving wrongs that don't involve medical malpractice.  

 

Before anyone accuses me of being "pro-medicine" (whatever the hell that means), I recognize that that the medical professions are flawed just like any other industry involving human beings are flawed.  I see it every day in my own non-medical practice.  There are people (and I would venture a vast majority) who want to do good and are motivated by the idea of helping people and then there are the slim few who are the subjects of forums like this.  I don't care if I get banned from MDC forever, but I'm going to say it...I'm tired of this bullshit.  

 

(I have a life outside MDC.  I'd be honored to be banned).  energy.gif

crayfishgirl likes this.

"Lawyers, I suppose, were children once." Charles Lamb.
CatsCradle is offline  
#194 of 281 Old 12-12-2012, 04:56 PM - Thread Starter
 
Taximom5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,102
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post


The "third leading cause" stat I believe comes from Dr. Mercola's site.
 

 

Actually, CNN has this:

http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/09/health/medical-mistakes/index.html

"Medical errors kill more than a quarter million people every year in the United States and injure millions. Add them all up and "you have probably the third leading cause of death" in the country, says Dr. Peter Pronovost, an anesthesiologist and critical care physician at Johns Hopkins Hospital."

applejuice likes this.
Taximom5 is offline  
#195 of 281 Old 12-12-2012, 06:11 PM
 
CatsCradle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: New York City
Posts: 2,006
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

 

Actually, CNN has this:

http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/09/health/medical-mistakes/index.html

"Medical errors kill more than a quarter million people every year in the United States and injure millions. Add them all up and "you have probably the third leading cause of death" in the country, says Dr. Peter Pronovost, an anesthesiologist and critical care physician at Johns Hopkins Hospital."

Interesting that CNN (which is Fox "light" in my opinion") doesn't cite to any interview or paper by Dr. Pronovost (who is a medical doctor at a leading medical institution in the U.S.).  Dr. Pronovost's works focus mostly on infections that occur during hospital visits and surgery and I'd be interested in seeing where and when he made this quote that medical errors are "probably the third leading cause of death in the country".  I'm not a medical malpractice lawyer but I've never heard even a medical malpractice attorney claim this.  I'd like to see more than CNN quotes that lead to a physician's biography with no other substantiating sources.  Just me.


"Lawyers, I suppose, were children once." Charles Lamb.
CatsCradle is offline  
#196 of 281 Old 12-12-2012, 06:16 PM
 
Adaline'sMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 4,792
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsCradle View Post

Then I suggest that we interview/poll the 300 million plus people in the U.S. to get a "real" result.  It is the only way for this ridiculous conversation about who and what and when people suffer under "medical" care to end.  

 

Not directed to you, Pek, but to the spirit of the thread in general:  my mother is alive today because doctors detected her breast cancer early.  She would have been dead 30 years ago if the same thing would have happened then.  My dad, a specialized dentist, makes teeth every day for people who have lost half their faces due to oral cancer (and I have seen pictures).  I'm still alive today because some mental health professionals were able to identify my mental health issues and help me maintain my sanity (as in, I can get up every morning and still function and am not pointing a gun at my head).  This idea that health professionals only care about injecting people with drugs is totally offensive to me.  I'm an attorney and see plenty of personal injury claims filed against medical professionals, but in the big picture, the claims are minute compared to breach of contract claims an other claims involving wrongs that don't involve medical malpractice.  

 

Before anyone accuses me of being "pro-medicine" (whatever the hell that means), I recognize that that the medical professions are flawed just like any other industry involving human beings are flawed.  I see it every day in my own non-medical practice.  There are people (and I would venture a vast majority) who want to do good and are motivated by the idea of helping people and then there are the slim few who are the subjects of forums like this.  I don't care if I get banned from MDC forever, but I'm going to say it...I'm tired of this bullshit.  

 

(I have a life outside MDC.  I'd be honored to be banned).  energy.gif

 

 

Yup. It's like every thread about vaccinations turns into how medical professionals are worthless. It makes this forum impossible to take seriously, and I hate that because I used to come here for real advice on when to vax. 


Holly and David partners.gif

Adaline love.gif (3/20/10), and Charlie brokenheart.gif (1/26/12- 4/10/12) and our identical  rainbow1284.gif  twins Callie and Wendy (01/04/13)

SIDS happens. 

Adaline'sMama is offline  
#197 of 281 Old 12-12-2012, 06:21 PM
 
CatsCradle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: New York City
Posts: 2,006
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Sorry, double posted.

"Lawyers, I suppose, were children once." Charles Lamb.
CatsCradle is offline  
#198 of 281 Old 12-12-2012, 06:25 PM
 
kathymuggle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,889
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 98 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsCradle View Post

(I have a life outside MDC.  I'd be honored to be banned).  energy.gif

CatsCradle…..your post won't even come close to getting you banned…..wink1.gif


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

Book and herb loving mama to 1 preteen and 2 teens (when did that happen?).  We travel, go to school, homeschool, live rurally, eat our veggies, spend too much time...

kathymuggle is online now  
#199 of 281 Old 12-12-2012, 06:41 PM
 
kathymuggle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,889
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 98 Post(s)

 I get a little tired of people who don't frequently post here coming on and whining about how nasty these subforums are. Forums are only as good as the posters that post in them, and if you think you can bring a fresh or moderate voice - bring it.  Essentially - put up or shut up.  

 

I don't go onto a forum I never post in (say, homebirth) and start complaining about the nasty tone, or lack of moderateness.  It is none of my business, and if I want to make it my business, then I need to try and engage in a genuine way first and get a bit more active in posting.  

Jennyanydots likes this.

There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

Book and herb loving mama to 1 preteen and 2 teens (when did that happen?).  We travel, go to school, homeschool, live rurally, eat our veggies, spend too much time...

kathymuggle is online now  
#200 of 281 Old 12-12-2012, 06:52 PM - Thread Starter
 
Taximom5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,102
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsCradle View Post

Interesting that CNN (which is Fox "light" in my opinion") doesn't cite to any interview or paper by Dr. Pronovost (who is a medical doctor at a leading medical institution in the U.S.).  Dr. Pronovost's works focus mostly on infections that occur during hospital visits and surgery and I'd be interested in seeing where and when he made this quote that medical errors are "probably the third leading cause of death in the country".  I'm not a medical malpractice lawyer but I've never heard even a medical malpractice attorney claim this.  I'd like to see more than CNN quotes that lead to a physician's biography with no other substantiating sources.  Just me.

 

Try googling; it's not hard to find:

 

http://www.delcotrial.org/pages/medical_errors_third.html

 

"Medical error is the 3rd leading cause of death according to the Journal of the American Medical Association. (JAMA) "Is US Health Really the Best in the World?" July 26, 2000 Vol. 284 No. 4, p. 483-485."

 

"Harvard professor and medical doctor Lucian Leape found that the studies of medical error were not exaggerated (JAMA July 5, 2000 Vol. 284 p. 95-97) and concluded from his own studies of thousands of hospitals' charts that "there is a substantial amount of injury to patients from medical management and many injuries are the result of substandard care" "Incidence of Adverse Events and Negligence in Hospitalized Patients" The New England Journal of Medicine Vol. 324 Feb. 7, 1991 p. 370-376."

 

The report as published in JAMA:  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10904513

or

http://www.delcotrial.org/media/pdf/000726_jama.pdf

kathymuggle likes this.
Taximom5 is offline  
#201 of 281 Old 12-12-2012, 06:57 PM
 
CatsCradle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: New York City
Posts: 2,006
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

 I get a little tired of people who don't frequently post here coming on and whining about how nasty these subforums are. Forums are only as good as the posters that post in them, and if you think you can bring a fresh or moderate voice - bring it.  Essentially - put up or shut up.  

 

I don't go onto a forum I never post in (say, homebirth) and start complaining about the nasty tone, or lack of moderateness.  It is none of my business, and if I want to make it my business, then I need to try and engage in a genuine way first and get a bit more active in posting.  

Kathy:  I understand your position and I respect that and try to employ the same standard.  However, I just see outrageous comments being made about the medical profession in general and I have many family members in the medical community (which I guess makes me sort of biased) and I just need to respond on a lot of levels.  For me, it isn't even about vacs per se, just the stuff that I've read on here lately which seems to damn science and the medical profession as evil.  Frankly, as a vegetarian (to cite a bad example) I would do the same if people were bashing vegetarians as commies or dumbells in the general nutrition forums.  I've tried to be careful in my response, but I really have a bad habit of calling people out when I think their posts are factually deficient or open to debate.  I browse all the subjects, and post in very little actually.  When I do browse and see something that causes a gut reaction in myself, I do feel compelled to respond.  Sorry.  love.gif

kathymuggle likes this.

"Lawyers, I suppose, were children once." Charles Lamb.
CatsCradle is offline  
#202 of 281 Old 12-12-2012, 07:03 PM
 
Imakcerka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 4,065
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)

Well there are deaths connected medical... and deaths with no medical intervention at all.  I think I know where I want to take my chances.  And I've watched someone die of cancer who chose no medical care because she didn't want to burden her family with expenses.  I will never shake that experience.  And I can not fathom her physical pain.  But you know what, life happens and I'm sure if she just injected herself with Vit C she would not have had a cancer ravaged body. 

Imakcerka is offline  
#203 of 281 Old 12-12-2012, 11:09 PM
 
prosciencemum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,707
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imakcerka View Post

I'm sure if she just injected herself with Vit C she would not have had a cancer ravaged body. 

LOL. I don't know why we're wasting so much time, effort and tax dollars searching for the cure for cancer when we can just inject vitamin C in everyone. wink1.gif

Seriously though - it's one thing to consider alternative medicine as an extra, and I think a lot of people could do for more for their general health in terms of exercise and nutrition which there is evidence to suggest would reduce the general amount of ill health. But thinking all modern medicine is a waste of time is in my opinion a ridiculous opinion.

And medical error as the 3rd cause of death overall. Doubt it. You're seriously suggesting its ahead of all but two other causes of death. I'm sure I posted somewhere a list of leading causes of death once before. I'll be right back. smile.gif

Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

prosciencemum is online now  
#204 of 281 Old 12-12-2012, 11:12 PM
 
prosciencemum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,707
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Oh that was quick. From the CDC (2009 stats).
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/lcod.htm



Heart disease: 599,413
Cancer: 567,628
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 137,353
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 128,842
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 118,021
Alzheimer's disease: 79,003
Diabetes: 68,705
Influenza and Pneumonia: 53,692
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 48,935
Intentional self-harm (suicide): 36,909

So are those asserting this statistic suggesting more than 137,353 deaths were caused in 2009 directly by medical malpractice and the CDC is just covering that up?

Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

prosciencemum is online now  
#205 of 281 Old 12-12-2012, 11:17 PM
 
prosciencemum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,707
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
The opinion piece taxi mom posted suggests in 2000 that 44-98 thousand deaths were caused by malpractice (but includes no reference for that). Even if that's true compared to 2009 death rates it's down to 6-9th cause of death. Curse really need a rate in 2009 to make a fair comparison. Doubt it's likely to have increased by a factor of 2-3 though...

However I do think it makes some good points about problems with the us health system. Seems great, if you have the money..... Personally that makes me uncomfortable. I've never thought rich people are more deserving of better health.

Worth a read (even if 12 years old now)
http://www.delcotrial.org/media/pdf/000726_jama.pdf

Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

prosciencemum is online now  
#206 of 281 Old 12-13-2012, 04:10 AM - Thread Starter
 
Taximom5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,102
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

Oh that was quick. From the CDC (2009 stats).
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/lcod.htm
Heart disease: 599,413
Cancer: 567,628
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 137,353
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 128,842
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 118,021
Alzheimer's disease: 79,003
Diabetes: 68,705
Influenza and Pneumonia: 53,692
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 48,935
Intentional self-harm (suicide): 36,909
So are those asserting this statistic suggesting more than 137,353 deaths were caused in 2009 directly by medical malpractice and the CDC is just covering that up?

Well, it's clear that it's being covered up. If JAMA is publishing a report that 44,000-98,000 deaths are caused by medical error, and the CDC doesn't even mention deaths by medical error....

Of course, it's not the first time the CDC has covered anything up.
Taximom5 is offline  
#207 of 281 Old 12-13-2012, 05:14 AM
 
Dakotacakes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 152
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I need more evidence than mercola and a man quoted iin an article saying that medical error iis PROBABLY the third leading cause of death before I will believe the CDC has a conspircy to cover up it beng the third leading cause of death.

The thing is, they don't need the hyperbole andit actually weakens their argument. Medical errors are a problem One death for error is too many. It is great to focus on ways to improve our medical system. But when we let rhetoric go over the top and indicate it is the third leading casue of death, many people who are not invested in the debate tune out, because it is clear that that isn't true, so why should I listen to the rest of what the article is saying.
Dakotacakes is online now  
#208 of 281 Old 12-13-2012, 06:04 AM - Thread Starter
 
Taximom5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,102
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakotacakes View Post

I need more evidence than mercola and a man quoted iin an article saying that medical error iis PROBABLY the third leading cause of death before I will believe the CDC has a conspircy to cover up it beng the third leading cause of death.
 

I provided more evidence for you.  Perhaps you missed it?  Or were you ignoring it?

 

Here it is again, with more detail, in case you didn't bother to look up the citations in the JAMA article:

 

http://www.delcotrial.org/media/pdf/000726_jama.pdf

 

"For example, US estimates of the combined effect of errors and adverse effects that occur because of iatrogenic damage  not associated with recognizable error include

  *   12,000 deaths/year from unnecessary surgery

  *     7,000 deaths/year from medication errors in hospitals

  *   20,000 deaths/year from other errors in hospitals

  *   80,000 deaths/year from nosocomial infections in hospitals

  * 106,000 deaths/year from non-error, adverse effects from medications"

 

The sources for these figures cited by the author (Barbara Starfield, MD, MPH) include:

Leape, L  Unnecessary Surgery.  Annu Rev Public Health. 1992 13:363-383

Phillips D, Christenfeld N, Glynn L  Increase in US medication--error deaths between 1983 and 1993.  Lancet. 1998; 351:643-644

Lazarou J, Pomerantz B, Corey P Incidence of drug reactions in hospitalized patients.  JAMA. 1998; 279: 1200-1205

 

"In any case, 225,000 deaths per year constitutes the third leading cause of death in the United States, after deaths from heart disease and cancer."

Taximom5 is offline  
#209 of 281 Old 12-13-2012, 06:13 AM
 
Mirzam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Outside the hive mind
Posts: 7,302
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)

Taxi, you beat me to it, I was coming on to post the Stanfield research.

 

Here is an interview with Dr Stanfield conducted in 2009 before her death.

 

 

 

 

Quote:

Can you offer an opinion about how the FDA can be so mortally wrong about so many drugs?

Yes, it cannot divest itself from vested interests. (Again, [there is] a large literature about this, mostly unrecognized by the people because the industry-supported media give it no attention.

BeckyBird likes this.

Rainbow.giftstillheart.gifsmile.gif

 

"If you find from your own experience that something is a fact and it contradicts what some authority has written down, then you must abandon the authority and base your reasoning on your own findings"~ Leonardo da Vinci

Mirzam is online now  
#210 of 281 Old 12-13-2012, 06:16 AM
 
Rrrrrachel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,154
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Also, it sounds like the CDC is like the WORST EVER at staging a cover up, if the information ended up in jama.
Rrrrrachel is offline  
Reply

Tags
Vaccines , Vaccinations

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off