Partial list of 2012 flu shot deaths and injuries - Page 2 - Mothering Forums
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#31 of 56 Old 12-05-2012, 08:56 AM
 
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And it is only a 'lower standard of proof' if you consider going up against the Gov's best lawyers easy. The Special Masters exist because JURIES like to award for Vax injury NOT because Govie likes to lower the standard of proof. In a court of law it is up to a lay jury.
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#32 of 56 Old 12-05-2012, 08:58 AM
 
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No, after you've gone through vicp you can go to the courts if you till want to.

It absolutely is a lower standard of proof than is required in civil court. That has nothing to do with the quality of the lawyers.
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#33 of 56 Old 12-05-2012, 10:12 AM
 
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Yes, lawyers don't make any difference in court. LOL

Since a gag order is a condition of mosy VICP awards, how would you then go through court without violating said order?
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#34 of 56 Old 12-05-2012, 10:15 AM
 
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Children have the right to have their injury redressed by a jury. So long as that has been taken away, we have some issues.
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#35 of 56 Old 12-05-2012, 10:15 AM
 
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And let's note that the VICP is funded as a tax on each vax (ie not by the manufacturers) & is almost tapped out.
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#36 of 56 Old 12-05-2012, 11:44 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

Well, holy heck, there's a lot of information there.

 

I find this particularly chilling:  http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/LORD.KENNEDY050812.pdf

 

 

 

"Confusion may occur where, as here, the Secretary’s main response to a petitioner’s case is to suggest an unrelated causative factor. As discussed below in regard to Doe 11, proving alternative causation is only one of the ways the Secretary can defeat a vaccine injury claim. Another way is to challenge the validity of the evidence presented in the petitioner’s case-in-chief. The Secretary hardly undertook the effort of challenging Petitioner’s factual presentation here. The evidence she did present, including evidence of possible alternative causation, was not sufficient to persuade me that viral causation was more likely than vaccine causation.

If the Secretary had identified a specific virus that she alleged caused Petitioner’s ADEM, it might have increased the weight of the evidence in rebuttal of Petitioner’s showing. That would have been a different case. But it was not necessary for the Secretary to present evidence of a specific infectious agent in order to rebut Petitioner’s case. If Petitioner had presented weaker evidence of vaccine causation, or the Secretary had presented stronger evidence of non-vaccine causation, the Secretarymight well have prevailed without identifying any alternative causative factor, and certainly without needing to specify the suspected viral agent."

 

Well, THAT certainly proves previous claims by the pro-vaxxers that you only need to prove that it was POSSIBLE for vaccines to cause your injury to win your case.  In fact, here the Special Master is giving the Secretary instructions on how they could have avoided losing this cases, and saying all she needed to do was to identify a specific virus that MIGHT have caused the petitioner's ADEM in order to throw the case out.  No need to present evidence that he actually had it, just identify one!

 

The Special Master clearly believes that the Secretary's job here is to challenge the Petitioner's factual presentation, and to "prevail."  His words.

 

Yes, "Vaccine Court" is an extremely adversarial process.  And this has been stated time after time after time by petitioners who actually WON their cases.  And here, we can see why.

 

I'm not here to argue pro or con in relation to vaccines, just to say that I don't see how the the legal standards of proof cited above are are any different than any other case presented in a court of law.  I deal with civil cases every day and these are the standards of proof, whether it is a construction defect claim or a breach of contract claim.  You either rebut the evidence presented or you present evidence which weakens the claimant's position.  If you can't do either, it is highly likely that your opponent will prevail.  I'm not following why the above is out of the ordinary in the legal realm.

 

Edited to add that "rebut" doesn't mean to prove alternate causation.  Rebut means to cast doubt on your opponent's position.  It's not the defendant's job to prove his/her position, but to show that his/her opponent's position is questionable. 


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#37 of 56 Old 12-05-2012, 12:06 PM
 
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Yes, lawyers don't make any difference in court. LOL
Since a gag order is a condition of mosy VICP awards, how would you then go through court without violating said order?

I'm pretty sure that if you opt out of vicp you don't get an award. So the alleged gag order would be irrelevant. I'm interested in some documentation this gag order even exists, if you have any.
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#38 of 56 Old 12-05-2012, 12:29 PM
 
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And let's clear this up: you can't SUE for a vax rx in the US anymore. You can appeal to the Special Masters for a max of 250G from the VICP.

This 250k number inaccurate. There is not a limit on total award. There is a limit of 350k for pain and suffering, but present and future costs of medical care aren't included n that.
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#39 of 56 Old 12-05-2012, 08:44 PM
 
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Where is your link on that? I am subject to a gag order on discussing the VICP gag orders. wink1.gif LOL. For real tho I am a little bored with discouting all parent testimony & the proVax agenda. I know about the gag order because a BFF accepted less money in order to avoid it. I can put you in touch if you want.
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#40 of 56 Old 12-06-2012, 04:29 AM
 
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My information comes from the vicp website. Specifically the PDF about what you should know about filling a claim.

I'm skeptical about the gag order because all of the special masters decisions are available on the web. It would seem strange to do that and then put a gag order on the people involved. It seems extra odd to have the gag order depend on the amount of the award.

I'm tired of people posting inaccurate information and then attacking me personally when I correct or question it.
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#41 of 56 Old 12-06-2012, 06:51 AM
 
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 For real tho I am a little bored with how you seem intent on discouting all parent testimony & only participating in MDC to work a proVax agenda. 

 

Most of the pro-vax people I have run across discount parent testimony (unless it is "my brother had the mumps and it was awful so we will give all of you vaxxes!"….in which case they do a happy dance wink1.gif)

 

Honestly, the whole thing is offensive…towards parents!


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#42 of 56 Old 12-06-2012, 06:59 AM
 
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I discount it in that I don't think it can be generalized, but that's different than criticizing it.
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#43 of 56 Old 12-06-2012, 07:58 AM
 
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You should have no issue providing a link then.
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#44 of 56 Old 12-06-2012, 08:07 AM
 
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This is from the HRSA website:

Compensation varies, depending on the injury, and can include as much as $250,000 for pain and suffering, lost earnings, legal fees, and/or a reasonable amount for past and future care. For a death, you may receive as much as $250,000 for the estate and legal fees.
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#45 of 56 Old 12-06-2012, 08:11 AM
 
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That's different from what was inthe PDF, but I still think that 250k is limited to pain and suffering and the other stuff is on top of that, but the way that's written I ambiguous.
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#46 of 56 Old 12-06-2012, 08:15 AM
 
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You should have no issue providing a link then.

Sorry, missed this before. Sre thing, here ya go.

http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/84521booklet.pdf

It's linked to right on the first page of their website, too.
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#47 of 56 Old 12-06-2012, 08:21 AM
 
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Originally Posted by dinahx View Post

This is from the HRSA website:
Compensation varies, depending on the injury, and can include as much as $250,000 for pain and suffering, lost earnings, legal fees, and/or a reasonable amount for past and future care. For a death, you may receive as much as $250,000 for the estate and legal fees.

There is a cap on pain and suffering only (which is $250k).  There is no limit on medical costs and payments are compensable with your medical needs.  Lost earnings are separate as well as legal fees.  See page 9 of the link provided below for the breakdown.

 

ftp://ftp.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/84521_Booklet.pdf


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#48 of 56 Old 12-06-2012, 08:23 AM
 
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Sorry, missed this before. Sre thing, here ya go.
http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/84521booklet.pdf
It's linked to right on the first page of their website, too.

Sorry Rrrrachel, we posted the link at the same time.  Again, not here to debate pro or con anything, but when I see misinformation dispersed on the internet, I feel compelled to counter with the correct information. 


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#49 of 56 Old 12-06-2012, 09:46 AM
 
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asserting that one is posting correct info & the others are just 'dispensing misinformation on the internet' is ad hominem in nature

The 250G number is in fact, a real number & it comes from the front page of the Government's VICP website. As I have shown.
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#50 of 56 Old 12-06-2012, 09:51 AM
 
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And in the end we are quibbling about the price of a child's life . . .
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#51 of 56 Old 12-06-2012, 09:56 AM
 
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I knew this was going to go there. That's a completely unfair characterization. A child's life is obviously priceless and no amount of money is worth harming a child, or worse.

Hopefully you'll look at the PDF that was linked, it presents the information in a much clearer way.
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#52 of 56 Old 12-06-2012, 10:01 AM
 
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dinahx, this post was way out of line and personally attacking Rrrrrachel. Edit it or I can delete it for you.

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#53 of 56 Old 12-06-2012, 10:27 AM
 
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Edited. In the future I am always happy to edit. PM anytime! <3
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#54 of 56 Old 12-06-2012, 10:29 AM
 
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I don't appreciate the assertion that I didn't look @ the PDF anymore than I appreciate the idea that the 250G number was a fictional one.
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#55 of 56 Old 12-06-2012, 10:31 AM
 
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It is a completely fair characterization that the VICP involves compensation for health & in some cases life. We have to remember the gravity of this discussion.
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#56 of 56 Old 12-06-2012, 10:35 AM
 
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asserting that one is posting correct info & the others are just 'dispensing misinformation on the internet' is ad hominem in nature
The 250G number is in fact, a real number & it comes from the front page of the Government's VICP website. As I have shown.

In defense of my prior post, and with all due respect, I wasn't arguing or even claiming that the 250k was a fictional number.  What I was trying to clear up is that the $250k represents pain and suffering only.  It represents a capped portion of a certain type of damage among other damages.  I can see how one could read that to mean a $250 cap on all damages and perhaps that portion of the website could have been a little more clear.  I'm used to seeing damages laid out like this, though, and just wanted to clear up (what I perceived to be) the notion that $250k was the limit on the total claim. 


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