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#31 of 53 Old 12-16-2012, 04:13 PM
 
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What else has improved life expectancy? Well, better nutrition. Better working conditions. Seat belts. Better law enforcement. All kinds of things. Advances in medical technology play a huge role, though. Arguably none bigger than vaccination.

Actually I would bet most of your list plays a larger role in life expectancy than vaccines.

 

I started to write a long thread detailing why, but decided not to bother.  Suffice to say looking up the pre-vaccine prevalence rate and death rate (and we are only looking at death rate given the conversation is on life expectancy), the only two VADs that  would have worrisome prevalence and mortality rates in a vaccine free world are measles and Polio - and even this is not a given.  This is pretty easily proven by looking up the death rates in the CDC pink book.

 

Caveat:  I am only thinking of wealthy nations here.  I do not know enough about the stats in under-developed nations to posit an argument.


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#32 of 53 Old 12-16-2012, 04:15 PM
 
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You mean the drugs are overused in the sense that they are given due to a misdiagnosis?  Or do you think they shouldn't be used even when correctly indicated?

I think parents should decide if drugs are given.  wink1.gif


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#33 of 53 Old 12-16-2012, 04:48 PM
 
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I think parents should decide if drugs are given.  wink1.gif

 

 

Don't they?  LIke 99% of the time?

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#34 of 53 Old 12-16-2012, 04:49 PM
 
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Actually I would bet most of your list plays a larger role in life expectancy than vaccines.

 

I started to write a long thread detailing why, but decided not to bother.  Suffice to say looking up the pre-vaccine prevalence rate and death rate (and we are only looking at death rate given the conversation is on life expectancy), the only two VADs that have would have worrisome prevalence and mortality rates in a vaccine free world are measles and Polio.  This pretty easily proven by looking up the death rates in the CDC pink book.

 

 

The WHO seems to disagree with you, as well as several other similar organizations.

 

http://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/86/2/07-040089/en/

 

 

 

Quote:

Vaccination has greatly reduced the burden of infectious diseases. Only clean water, also considered to be a basic human right, performs better.

 

 

 

 

http://www.unicef.org/immunization/files/SOWVI_full_report_english_LR1.pdf

 

 

 

Quote:
“With the exception of safe water, no other 
modality, not even antibiotics, has had such 
a major effect on mortality reduction…” 
 

 

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10559545

 

 

 

Quote:
With regard to past evidence, several data from the United Kingdom and Scandinavian countries show that the widespread use of smallpox vaccination starting at the beginning of the nineteenth century resulted in a marked and sustained decline not only of smallpox-related deaths, but also of the overall crude death rate, and contributed greatly to an unprecedented growth of European population. As to the present, it is estimated that 3 million children are saved annually by vaccination, but 2 million still die because they are not immunized.

 

 

Here is a great, although rather technical, discussion of the impact of vaccines on childhood mortality.

 

http://www.popcouncil.org/pdfs/wp/218.pdf

 

This one does a particularly good job talking about how vaccination improves life expectancy, which improves economic conditions, which improves life expectancy . . . creating a snowball effect.

 

http://www.who.int/immunization_supply/financing/value_vaccination_bloom_canning_weston.pdf

 

Here's a great discussion of the impact on life expectancy of vaccinating for varicella.

 

http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/34/7/885.full

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#35 of 53 Old 12-16-2012, 05:04 PM
 
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Vaccination has greatly reduced the burden of infectious diseases. Only clean water, also considered to be a basic human right, performs better.

 

Quote:

“With the exception of safe water, no other 
modality, not even antibiotics, has had such 
a major effect on mortality reduction…” 
 

 

Kathy, do read the paper I PM'ed it covers in great detail how vaccines have done nothing of the sort. Very comprehensive.

 

 

Quote:

With regard to past evidence, several data from the United Kingdom and Scandinavian countries show that the widespread use of smallpox vaccination starting at the beginning of the nineteenth century resulted in a marked and sustained decline not only of smallpox-related deaths, but also of the overall crude death rate, and contributed greatly to an unprecedented growth of European population. As to the present, it is estimated that 3 million children are saved annually by vaccination, but 2 million still die because they are not immunized.

 

 

 

 

It has a great deal of historical (non-revisionist) evidence on smallpox. It has taken me two days to get through the piece though!


Rainbow.giftstillheart.gifsmile.gif

 

"If you find from your own experience that something is a fact and it contradicts what some authority has written down, then you must abandon the authority and base your reasoning on your own findings"~ Leonardo da Vinci

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#36 of 53 Old 12-16-2012, 05:18 PM
 
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I would like to know your opinion.   Do you think some pharmaceuticals are overused?


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#37 of 53 Old 12-16-2012, 05:26 PM
 
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I think parents should decide if drugs are given.  wink1.gif


Lots of parents (outside MDC-land) want antibiotics for every little cough or sniffle.  I'm not confident that parents are always the best judges of what drugs kids need and when.

 

ETA though of course doctors can only prescribe, they can't enforce.  It is, practically, up to the parents if they choose not to give certain drugs.


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#38 of 53 Old 12-16-2012, 05:29 PM
 
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Quote:

“With the exception of safe water, no other 
modality, not even antibiotics, has had such 
a major effect on mortality reduction…” 
 

 

Kathy, do read the paper I PM'ed it covers in great detail how vaccines have done nothing of the sort. Very comprehensive.

 

 

 

Mizram…you are preaching to the choir smile.gif

 

I don''t think all vaccines have been useless, but there is no way I think they are the salvation of mankind, either.

 

Take a look at this chart - the only 2 VAD's that made the causes of death list in  pre-vaccine 1900 were flu and diptheria.

http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2012/06/25/historical-changes-in-causes-of-death/

 

 

The flu and diptheria do not kill as many now, but that is not due to vaccines.     Diptheria is not a threat in wealthy countries as it is primarily caused by overcrowded living conditions and poor sanitation, and the flu vaccines is not overly useful.


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#39 of 53 Old 12-16-2012, 05:38 PM
 
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Kathy, you should read some of the stuff I linked. It talks about how the impact of vaccination is far more nuance and far reaching than you're making it out to be.
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#40 of 53 Old 12-16-2012, 06:03 PM
 
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Um, handwashing! Thank you, Sommelweiss! bow.gif And other forms of sanitation, of course.

Please don't misunderstand. I know there are many things that have contributed to increased life expectancy. I just wanted the pro-vax side to admit that, even without vaccinations, life expectancy would be greater than the dark ages.
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#41 of 53 Old 12-16-2012, 06:06 PM
 
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Pek you're creating a total straw man, there.
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#42 of 53 Old 12-16-2012, 06:11 PM
 
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I would like to know your opinion.   Do you think some pharmaceuticals are overused?

 

I think that every drug has appropriate indications and when they are indicated, I don't have a problem with them being prescribed.  If you are using "over-prescribed" as meaning the same thing as "prescribed when not indicated," then I agree some drugs like antibiotics are "over-prescribed."  But I think that's a weird and imprecise term for it.  If a drug is needed, then it's needed. 
 

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#43 of 53 Old 12-16-2012, 06:20 PM
 
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I just wanted the pro-vax side to admit that, even without vaccinations, life expectancy would be greater than the dark ages.

 

Life expectancy during the so-called Dark Ages was probably 30-35, with about 20% dying before age 5.  Yes, we'd beat that even without vaxes.  If that's all you want me to concede, you got it.  I just don't think it's a very lofty goal.


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#44 of 53 Old 12-16-2012, 06:24 PM
 
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Life expectancy during the so-called Dark Ages was probably 30-35, with about 20% dying before age 5.  Yes, we'd beat that even without vaxes.  If that's all you want me to concede, you got it.  I just don't think it's a very lofty goal.

Way too literal!
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#45 of 53 Old 12-16-2012, 07:15 PM
 
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 I think that's a weird and imprecise term for it.  
 

Overused is a weird and imprecise term?  

 

It was the term used by the CDC in the link I shared:

 

"So, what is fueling antibiotic resistance, you may ask? We're finding that the widespread overuse—as well as inappropriate use—of antibiotics is fueling antibiotic resistance. Additionally, the overuse of antibiotics is causing even more problems faced by patients. Drug side effects, allergic reactions, and serious diarrheal infections caused by Clostridium difficile* are all popping up as a result of inappropriate antibiotic use. These complications of antibiotic therapy can have serious outcomes, even death."

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There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#46 of 53 Old 12-16-2012, 07:59 PM
 
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Overused is a weird and imprecise term?  

 

It was the term used by the CDC in the link I shared:

 

"So, what is fueling antibiotic resistance, you may ask? We're finding that the widespread overuse—as well as inappropriate use—of antibiotics is fueling antibiotic resistance. Additionally, the overuse of antibiotics is causing even more problems faced by patients. Drug side effects, allergic reactions, and serious diarrheal infections caused by Clostridium difficile* are all popping up as a result of inappropriate antibiotic use. These complications of antibiotic therapy can have serious outcomes, even death."

 

I think inappropriate use is a better term.  Here's the thing...drugs being prescribed in inappropriate situations has nothing to do with the value of the drug or the pharmaceutical industry in general.  And...in case you don't remember your original comment that I questioned you on, you were agreeing that Mirizam that it's better for kids to be "drug-free" and to help them "get off meds" rather than "preferring a world of drugged-up kids."  This is NOT referring to antibiotics and you damn well know it.  You guys are talking about people like my daughter who is miserable and anxious and unable to do her schoolwork without her medication, and is happy and engaged and doing well with it.  "Overuse" doesn't mean much to me.  My question is, does the person need the drug, or not?  And who are you to say they don't? 

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#47 of 53 Old 12-17-2012, 04:31 AM
 
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Way too literal!


How very silly of me to respond to the words you wrote.


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#48 of 53 Old 12-17-2012, 05:11 AM
 
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I think inappropriate use is a better term.  Here's the thing...drugs being prescribed in inappropriate situations has nothing to do with the value of the drug or the pharmaceutical industry in general.  And...in case you don't remember your original comment that I questioned you on, you were agreeing that Mirizam that it's better for kids to be "drug-free" and to help them "get off meds" rather than "preferring a world of drugged-up kids."  This is NOT referring to antibiotics and you damn well know it.  You guys are talking about people like my daughter who is miserable and anxious and unable to do her schoolwork without her medication, and is happy and engaged and doing well with it.  "Overuse" doesn't mean much to me.  My question is, does the person need the drug, or not?  And who are you to say they don't? 

 

 

It is possible for drugs to be an appropriate choice for your daughter and for drugs (including such ones as Ritalin) to be over-prescribed.

 

A quote from the second link, discussing the issue of Ritalin overuse:

 

 

"The annual report of the International Narcotics Control Board (INCB) says the use of the drug Ritalin for children with attention deficit disorder has gone up in more than 50 countries, including Britain, where it could soon reach levels comparable to that in the US.

The report criticises overuse of the drug in America.

Treatment rates for hyperactivity in some American schools are as high as 30 to 40 per cent of a class and children as young as one year old have been known to have been given the drug."

 

You know a drug my youngest has been on?  Antibiotics.  I love love.gif antibiotics.  You know what drug has been overprescribed?  Antibiotics.  See - it is doable - you can think a drug has benefits in some people and some circumstances and still think it is overprescribed in general.  And if you can't…then I really don't have anything more to say.


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#49 of 53 Old 12-17-2012, 05:37 AM
 
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How very silly of me to respond to the words you wrote.

Except I used lower case, meaning not the literal Dark Ages. Therefore, your response was off. Now, I expect, this will be flagged as off topic, so only your words remain. That is the trend in most vax threads.
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#50 of 53 Old 12-17-2012, 05:51 AM
 
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It is possible for drugs to be an appropriate choice for your daughter and for drugs (including such ones as Ritalin) to be over-prescribed.

 

A quote from the second link, discussing the issue of Ritalin overuse:

 

 

"The annual report of the International Narcotics Control Board (INCB) says the use of the drug Ritalin for children with attention deficit disorder has gone up in more than 50 countries, including Britain, where it could soon reach levels comparable to that in the US.

The report criticises overuse of the drug in America.

Treatment rates for hyperactivity in some American schools are as high as 30 to 40 per cent of a class and children as young as one year old have been known to have been given the drug."

 

You know a drug my youngest has been on?  Antibiotics.  I love love.gif antibiotics.  You know what drug has been overprescribed?  Antibiotics.  See - it is doable - you can think a drug has benefits in some people and some circumstances and still think it is overprescribed in general.  And if you can't…then I really don't have anything more to say.

 

No one refers to kids on antibiotics as "drugged up kids."  Don't you get how offensive that is?  There are situations where drugs are being prescribed inappropriately, but a blanket statement that children are better off not being "drugged up" is offensive and just plain incorrect.  Instead of arguing with me over what percentage of children "should" be on various drugs, why don't you go argue with Mirizam over what she means when she says that kids are better off not being drugged up?  It's a problem, no doubt, when drugs are seen as an easy fix for typical childhood behavior issues, but it is just as big a problem when children are not given the help they need because people are afraid of the Big Bad pharmaceutical companies.

 

And, you know, regarding the part you edited out of your post...no one here said that vaccines saved the world.  What they are saying is that, yes, the human race would go on without them and without a lot of other stuff we take for granted, like clean water.  We know this because there are people who live in places without vaccines and without clean water, and yes, life goes on.  It doesn't take all that much of a life expectancy for a species to go on, and there would be adaptation to compensate for loss of life.  This is meaningless to YOUR child and MY child, who are individuals who deserve their best odds of making their way through this world.  As ALL children do.  I for one am not satisfied with the idea that we'll get, you know, a good strong percentage of the kids through their childhood.  Kids died of VPDs all the time.  Once upon a time smallpox killed something like 35-40% of the people who caught it, and now it's eradicated. This was nothing short of a miracle and I really don't understand why it's not appreciated at the same level as the plumbing that brings the clean water to your house and allows for all the modern hygiene everyone gives all the credit to. 

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#51 of 53 Old 12-17-2012, 05:53 AM
 
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Except I used lower case, meaning not the literal Dark Ages. Therefore, your response was off. Now, I expect, this will be flagged as off topic, so only your words remain. That is the trend in most vax threads.

Oh, I understood you.  So did everyone else.  You wanted pro-vaxxers to admit, that even without vaccination, our current life expectancy in developed nations would still be high.  Chickabiddy latched onto the word "Dark Ages" as a way to circumvent the real question, IMHO.

 

My suspicion:  It is not going to happen winky.gif  They will argue 2+4=7 before ceding a point.  I think it decreases their credibility when they can't even admit vaccines are not a huge factor in life expectancy (or bicker about whether some pharmaceuticals are overused)…but what do I know.

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#52 of 53 Old 12-17-2012, 06:12 AM
 
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I acknowledged it before and I'll acknowledge it again.  Vaccines are not the only factor in increased life expectancy.  But medical advances -- antibiotics, birth control, IV therapy for dysentery or cholera, etc. -- do play a very significant role.  Life was not beautiful and bucolic "back then", it was nasty, brutish, and short.


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#53 of 53 Old 12-17-2012, 06:13 AM
 
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There is no point to cede. No one ever claimed that vaccines were the one and not reason life expectancy had increased.

Kathy, the only thing that article says for sure is that ADHD diagnosis are on the rise. SOME people in the article SPECULATE that may be because of over diagnosis.
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