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#31 of 55 Old 12-24-2012, 11:00 AM
 
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Not true. Just not true. The body has natural defense systems that are designed to handle contaminants introduced through the skin, not just the gut.
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#32 of 55 Old 12-24-2012, 11:11 AM
 
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For folks who are interested, here's a great compilation of some of the research on thimerosal. It does a good job explaining how we now know ethylmercury (which is what thimerosal breaks down into) is eliminated much more quickly from the body than methyl mercury (the type of mercury you get from fish, for example) and therefore doesn't build up in the body the same way.

http://www.immunizationinfo.org/science/mercury-vaccines

It's also worth noting that we have a pretty good idea what mercury poisoning looks like. When people claim that vaccines cause ______ because of mercury poisoning, ask yourself if the alleged disease/disorder/whatever really fits the symptoms of mercury poisoning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_poisoning#Signs_and_symptoms
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#33 of 55 Old 12-24-2012, 11:11 AM
 
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Double post
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#34 of 55 Old 12-24-2012, 11:29 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post

Thimerosal is 50% mercury. Mercury is a neurotoxin, no amount in the body is desirable or safe. I explained all of this above, as have so many others. Frankly, I find it mind boggling that people would argue in favor of thimerosal, even if they are pro-vax. It does not need to be in vaccines, except for the reason it is cheap and improves the bottom line for the pharmaceutical companies.

I agree.  I know thimerosal serves a purpose, but they can serve that purpose another way. Even most government sites I read say such things as "use thimerosol free sources if you can to lessen exposure" - but then allow thim in some vaccines. eyesroll.gif


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#35 of 55 Old 12-24-2012, 11:38 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

Not true. Just not true. The body has natural defense systems that are designed to handle contaminants introduced through the skin, not just the gut.

Toxins acquired via contact with the skin is not the same as injected directly into the muscle. The skin acts as a protective filter against toxins, along with the gut and mucus membranes.


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#36 of 55 Old 12-24-2012, 11:44 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Mercury poisoning compared with autism

 

Autism a Novel Form of Mercury Poisoning


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#37 of 55 Old 12-24-2012, 11:57 AM
 
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http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/111/3/674.full


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#38 of 55 Old 12-24-2012, 12:10 PM
 
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Toxins acquired via contact with the skin is not the same as injected directly into the muscle. The skin acts as a protective filter against toxins, along with the gut and mucus membranes.

I'm not talking about contact with the skin. I'm talking about as in a cut or a scrape. Even and injection. It's called the lymph system.
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#39 of 55 Old 12-24-2012, 01:25 PM - Thread Starter
 
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And what can happen when thimerosal preserved vaccines are injected into a living organism is lymph damage and thyroid disease (among plenty of other things). This has been tragically demonstrated in dogs who suffer thyroid disease at an alarming rate these days. See the work of Dr Jean Dodds. The lymphatic system is the body's clean up system, when heavy metals like mercury, aluminum, cadmium etc get into the lymph glands the body can effectively shut down. 

 

If one can avoid thimerosal preserved vaccines, given its toxicity, it seems a very wise course of action. Promoting this preservative for use in children's vaccines, like the AAP and WHO are doing, strikes me as evil.

 

For those concerned about mercury in vaccines, you can sign the petition to get the AAP and WHO to reverse their support of Thimerosal here.

 

A Review of Thimerosal (Merthiolate) and its Ethylmerucy Breakdown Product: Specific Historial Considerations Regarding Safety and Effectiveness


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#40 of 55 Old 12-26-2012, 04:17 PM
 
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Thimerosal (50% or more accurately 49.55% mercury) is both water and fat soluble, 

 

#MercuryPoisoning

 

Table salt is 60% chlorine - a toxic gas used as a method of warfare during world war II. Table salt is water soluble too....

 

#ChlorinePoisoning 

 

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_chloride)

 

It's not just the elemental content which determines toxicity, it's the way the chemical reacts with stuff. 

 

And yes I realise I'm starting to sound like a broken record pointing this out - but if you cannot understand basic chemistry how can you trust your understanding of the safety and efficacy of vaccines?


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#41 of 55 Old 12-26-2012, 04:24 PM
 
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I think if it was as simple as just removing thimerosal with no consequences they would. But it's not. In developing countries removing thimerosal means, in practicality, many many people will go without vaccines that would otherwise save their lives. It's a very very different equation than the one we face in the developed world.

I don't think the situation with dogs is very relevant to vaccinating humans for a lot of reasons.
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#42 of 55 Old 12-26-2012, 04:30 PM
 
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I think if it was as simple as just removing thimerosal with no consequences they would. But it's not. In developing countries removing thimerosal means, in practicality, many many people will go without vaccines that would otherwise save their lives. It's a very very different equation than the one we face in the developed world.
I don't think the situation with dogs is very relevant to vaccinating humans for a lot of reasons.

 

The risk benefit analysis of course is very different - in the developing world VPDs are much more prevalent, and among the poorer, badly nourished, and living in slums (etc) can be much more serious. So more risk may be acceptable for vaccines (not that I agree there's any good evidence that thimerosol is dangerous, but it has the perception of being dangerous) in order just to get those vaccines out as widely as possible. 

 

Not much of a PR stunt to insist on thimerosol in vaccines in the developing world, so I'm pretty sure if it could be done without it would be.... And so if they want to keep it it really must be out of a desire to save as many lives as possible from VPDs. 


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#43 of 55 Old 12-26-2012, 04:37 PM
 
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You must not have much faith in science and big pharm if you don't think they can create a thim -free vaccine that meets the needs of the developing world. wink1.gif.  I think they just don't choose to .


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#44 of 55 Old 12-26-2012, 04:56 PM
 
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Right.  Because what they have works, and the costs of developing and testing a new vaccine will not be recovered easily.


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#45 of 55 Old 12-26-2012, 05:35 PM - Thread Starter
 
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You must not have much faith in science and big pharm if you don't think they can create a thim -free vaccine that meets the needs of the developing world. wink1.gif.  I think they just don't choose to .

 

I don't think they choose to either, they would rather keep selling a cheap product, that is potentially harmful, than invest money in a safer product. If this was the car industry do you think they would be allowed to keep producing and selling dangerous cars? The pharmaceutical industry doesn't give a s#*t about the children and neither does the AAP or WHO. 


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#46 of 55 Old 12-28-2012, 02:42 PM
 
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You must not have much faith in science and big pharm if you don't think they can create a thim -free vaccine that meets the needs of the developing world. wink1.gif .  I think they just don't choose to .

I'm sure they will eventually, but science and especially medical developments take time.

There are plenty of checks and licensing to make sure they have to care about the health of children. Admitadly I'd count WHO and AAP in those checks, so if you don't trust them that's a problem - but a bigger one than being worried about vaccines.

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I'm sure they will eventually, but science and especially medical developments take time.
There are plenty of checks and licensing to make sure they have to care about the health of children. Admitadly I'd count WHO and AAP in those checks, so if you don't trust them that's a problem - but a bigger one than being worried about vaccines.

And you don't trust the United Nations because you disagree with their assessment?

 

Let's not go there.  I can trust an organisation overall, and still not agree with certain decisions they make.


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#48 of 55 Old 12-28-2012, 03:13 PM
 
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Where does the UN come into this?

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#49 of 55 Old 12-28-2012, 03:40 PM
 
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http://www.bolenreport.com/Mark%20Geier/vaccine%20industry%20panic.htm

 

We had moved onto discussing thimerosal in vaccines in developing countries. 

 

The UN wants thim out of all vaccines, the AAP and WHO oppose.


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So the political organization wants it out, and the medical organizations want it in. Interesting.
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#51 of 55 Old 12-29-2012, 03:50 AM
 
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It is interesting. Has the UN decided yet? Because I followed up with some google and just found that they were discussing it as something they might pass (hence the lobbying from organizations claiming it will hurt poor children to do this since it will reduce their access to potentially live saving vaccines).

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#52 of 55 Old 12-29-2012, 06:43 AM
 
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It is interesting.  I believe the hearing is mid January.

 

I would still like to know if you would cease to trust the UN if they pass the resolution to remove thim from all vaccines.


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#53 of 55 Old 12-29-2012, 08:05 AM
 
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I don't know enough about how or why the UN pass medical resolutions to trust them on that. I thiught they were more about peace keeping and the international court of human rights (or perhaps we shouldnt mention that in the USA).

AAP and WHO on the other hand are medical organisations and Mirzam suggested they don't care about children, which seems unlikely to me.

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#54 of 55 Old 12-29-2012, 02:38 PM
 
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I thought I'd read a it more of what WHO says about this, because I generally trust their advice to be unbiased and based on whats best for the health of people.

You can read it here http://www.who.int/wer/2012/wer8721.pdf (in both French and english). It's on page 15 (following lots of other I interesting stuff about world wide vaccination programs and safety checks).

Some excerpts which caught my eye:

"WHO advised countries that mercury quantities in thiomersal-containing vaccines were extremely small, and if vials and syringes are handled in an environmentally sound manner as hospital waste, there would be minimal environmental release of mercury."

and

"There would be a high risk of serious disruption to routine immunization programmes and mass immunization campaigns if thiomersal-preserved multi-dose vials were not available for inactivated vaccines, with a predictable and sizable increase in mortality, for exceedingly limited environmental benefit."

(ie they think more people will die if this rule is passed).

Not only that they (WHO) think that

"removal of these products would disproportionately jeopardize the health and lives of the most disadvantaged children worldwide"

They conclude though that the best long term solution is to work on developing alternatives which don't use thiomerosal to ensure long term availablity of vaccines.

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#55 of 55 Old 12-29-2012, 02:51 PM
 
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Ok, so it's the United Nations Environment Programme which debates these things (www.unep.org).

The next debate happens 13-18th January in Geneva.
http://www.unep.org/hazardoussubstances/Mercury/Negotiations/INC5/tabid/3471/Default.aspx

It appears they asked the WHO for input on thimerosal in vaccines, and the statements they have are all linked here: http://www.unep.org/hazardoussubstances/Portals/9/Mercury/Documents/INC5/WHO%20Submission%20for%20Mercury%20INC5_18%20December%202012.pdf

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