"Australian Vaccination Network" ordered to change "misleading" name. Could NVIC be next? - Page 4 - Mothering Forums

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#91 of 119 Old 12-29-2012, 11:00 AM
 
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Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama View Post

Kathy, I read back through first the general UA and then the general vax forum UA, then the debate forum UA and finally the 'big girl panties' guidelines. My interpretation is that your line of questioning is not fitting with the guidelines. Would you mind reading through them again and if you feel I am in error, PMing me to have another look? I will also be happy to bring your question to the main discussion about the bigger issues being considered. 

No, it's Ok.  You can poof the question if you like.

 

The question has been up for 5 hours. I know many, but not all pro-vaxxers have been online, and have not bothered to answer.  I will draw my own conclusions greensad.gif  They are welcome to pm the answer if they like.  I guess asking vaxxers to speak up against crap they see is too much. A similar thing happened after the oh-so-charming thread where they mocked parents who believe their children were hurt by vaccines.  Did any of them speak out against it, even when they were given the opportunity?  No, they did not.  Cause before people, I guess.  If you can ban me from this forum, but not the INV forum, I would appreciate it. 

 

I find it quite odd that MeepyCat was able to call someones post eugenicist and anti-humanist on another thread, Wendy and Tux have spouted vile on this thread, but I cannot ask vaxxers if they think the vile is acceptable.    Honestly, there are a lot of non-vaxxers who feel vaxxers are heavily favoured on these forums and do not want to be here any more. 

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#92 of 119 Old 12-29-2012, 11:29 AM
 
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From what I understand, newborns often do catch it from a family member.  This mainstream site said about 1/2 of all whooping cough in infants was transmitted via the mother.http://www.permanente.net/homepage/kaiser/pdf/48855.pdf.

 

Some places have experimented with cocooning - which is when all members of the family, and caregivers, are given a pertussis booster to try and protect the newborn.  Australia had it, then rescinded it as they decided it was not effective.

 

That being said, if I lived in an area with a high amount of pertussis, I may very well get a pertussis booster before pregnancy or at birth in an attempt to keep the infant safe (I am typically non-vax) …and the baby would be sheltered from contact with lots of people during the first 4 or 5 months of its life.  Pertussis is nasty in babies.  

 

Yeah...I'd be interested in seeing more research. These kinds of info sheets always leave me asking more.

But another consideration, and this is based on personal experience with one of our secretaries (at a medical clinic) who had pertussis for several months and was misdiagnosed several times......What if we are failing in diagnosing troublesome coughs in teens and adults? Since we can actually treat pertussis in older kids/adults, is one of the reasons we see an increase that it used to be just a "childhood illness" and thus is not always considered in diagnosing adults? Or-alternately, are some families quick to go to the doc for abx to treat the "sinus infection" or other misdiagnosis when they unknowingly were affected by bordetella pertussis, thus protecting the infant having no idea that they just prevented a case of pertussis in the home? Is the swab an expensive one to run, thus is a rare test to do? 

 

FWIW, It doesn't seem as if the pertussis vax is securely preventing folks from contracting the illness as evidenced by its appearance in so many vaxed people, so I hesitate to make the jump that a vax in the other members of a household would prevent the infant from contracting it. I'd be a big fan of an initiative to alert folks to the symptoms and encourage a consideration that it could be pertussis, and that it's treatable in addition to offering a vax to prevent.

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#93 of 119 Old 12-29-2012, 11:35 AM
 
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lanamommy...I will be happy to discuss this with you....in the non vax forum (and in a few hours as I need to get back to work).  Hopefully others will join us.

 

K


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#94 of 119 Old 12-29-2012, 11:47 AM
 
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The vaccine protects somewhere between 7 in 10 and 9 in 10 people, depending on age and which vaccine we're talking about. That does fade year to year after the vaccine is administered, but it absolutely IS effective at preventing infection, and even more effective at preventing serious infection.
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#95 of 119 Old 12-29-2012, 11:55 AM
 
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The vaccine protects somewhere between 7 in 10 and 9 in 10 people, depending on age and which vaccine we're talking about. That does fade year to year after the vaccine is administered, but it absolutely IS effective at preventing infection, and even more effective at preventing serious infection.

 

Except when it's not.

 

It can't be effective at preventing infection when it's ineffective, which is 59-89% of the time.  So when you repeatedly state that unvaccinated are 9-23 times more likely to contract pertussis than vaccinated - that can only be WHEN THE VACCINE WORKS.


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#96 of 119 Old 12-29-2012, 12:00 PM
 
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Fear of vaccination is an unreasonable fear that does not align with the facts.  The risk of adverse reaction to vaccination is miniscule in comparison to the risks associated with the diseases, yet anti vaccinationists cannot see that.  Indeed, there is more change that a child will be injured on a trampoline or in a car, yet these same people have trampolines and travel in cars.  Children get more toxins in their normal day to day living than in an immunisation yet these people do nothing about the environment.

 

 

Since you are new here, I guess you don't realize that many of us who you deem "anti-vaccinationists" have children who WERE injured from vaccines.  We believed all the bullshit that you are spewing, got our kids all their shots, and now how children who are permanently damaged from vaccines.

 

Ironically, these are the same kids that people like you rail about creating herd immunity for - you know, the ones who can't be vaccinated, but you have no sympathy for them anyway and call us, their parents, crazy, stupid, conspiracy theorists, etc.

 

YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.  I wish I could be as naive as you, but my experiences and child's diagnoses preclude that for me.


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#97 of 119 Old 12-29-2012, 12:02 PM
 
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No, it's Ok.  You can poof the question if you like.

 

If you can ban me from this forum, but not the INV forum, I would appreciate it. 

 

 

I poofed much of the above quote just to be sure I wasn't unwittingly copying a UAV or anything associated (just in case) ;-)

 

Kathy--I've been a lurker, learner, debater, etc. for a while on and off over the years. I notice that I hang out for a while, and then back off, then come back. One of the reasons is the dichotomy...I've been oft-accused of being anti-vax..but this is not true. Honestly, I've been accused of virtually everything under the sun. But I think there is a thing I've learned along the way, and that is to have compassion for where people are at the time that they are. At one point my mother thought I was reckless over the vax issue...but then she met some more people and saw the things I did. She understood now from my point of view. I can only offer the same for those who may be operating under assumptions that not using vax means a set of characteristics that have heinous and inhumane attached. When I try on the provax activist shoes, I can for a brief moment see why and how they might be coming to a conclusion, and when I step into a vehemently opposing vax's shoes, I can see the same. I think sometimes it takes so much patience and kindness and sometimes that's a lot of effort to put into a discussion board. It's much easier for some to spew. MDC at one point really was quite polite, even in big debates, but I also remember a big huge flame I got once a few years back for no reasonable explanation. It was just the vibe. Some threads take on a life of their own, and sometimes it makes for a fascinating read, but other times we're left with jaw2.gif!

 

Don't let it get you down! You don't need to be banned over your frustrations, do you? You have valuable insights and information to provide! Sometimes a couple of posters on a board are irritating, but remember the lurkers. There are a lot of folk who just read. They may be quite smart not to engage at this point, but they might be learning a style of compassion and thoughtful debate on the boards that they might attribute to the nonvaxing crowd ;-)

 

Okay, then, back to the topic eh?

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#98 of 119 Old 12-29-2012, 12:16 PM
 
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Completely off topic, but I just wanted to chime in and say yes, please remember the lurkers! I always read, hardly ever respond. I tend to focus my attentions on those who seem "in the middle". They are compassionate and don't fly off the handle when writing on the boards. The others, on both the pro vax and anti vax fringes I tend to not read so much or place so much weight on what they write..

I just wanted to say I hope you dont leave I thoroughly enjoy your responses. :-)
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#99 of 119 Old 12-29-2012, 12:52 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Except when it's not.

It can't be effective at preventing infection when it's ineffective, which is 59-89% of the time.  So when you repeatedly state that unvaccinated are 9-23 times more likely to contract pertussis than vaccinated - that can only be WHEN THE VACCINE WORKS.

I just can't help pointing out the maths problems here. For something to reduce the risk of pertussis by factors of 9-23 it obviously doesn't work sometimes. If it worked all the time it would be reducing the risk by a factor of infinity which is obviously not possible.

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#100 of 119 Old 12-29-2012, 01:18 PM
 
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Since you are new here, I guess you don't realize that many of us who you deem "anti-vaccinationists" have children who WERE injured from vaccines.  We believed all the bullshit that you are spewing, got our kids all their shots, and now how children who are permanently damaged from vaccines.

 

Ironically, these are the same kids that people like you rail about creating herd immunity for - you know, the ones who can't be vaccinated, but you have no sympathy for them anyway and call us, their parents, crazy, stupid, conspiracy theorists, etc.

 

YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.  I wish I could be as naive as you, but my experiences and child's diagnoses preclude that for me.

 

Thank you for that.

 

At one time I might've considered getting a vaccine or two, but exposure to vaccine pushers and the negative way they push their agenda actually makes me even more against receiving one now. 

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#101 of 119 Old 12-29-2012, 02:27 PM
 
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Except when it's not.

It can't be effective at preventing infection when it's ineffective, which is 59-89% of the time.  So when you repeatedly state that unvaccinated are 9-23 times more likely to contract pertussis than vaccinated - that can only be WHEN THE VACCINE WORKS.

No. That doesn't even make sense.
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#102 of 119 Old 12-29-2012, 02:39 PM
 
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Thank you for that.

 

At one time I might've considered getting a vaccine or two, but exposure to vaccine pushers and the negative way they push their agenda actually makes me even more against receiving one now. 


Me too (although I'm still considering a couple).  Every now and then I wonder if I'm missing some vital bit of information that would make me more enthusiastic about vaccines, then I see what tactics the enthusiastically pro-vax crowd is relying on, and I feel reassured that I haven't missed anything.

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#103 of 119 Old 12-29-2012, 02:44 PM
 
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Me too (although I'm still considering a couple).  Every now and then I wonder if I'm missing some vital bit of information that would make me more enthusiastic about vaccines, then I see what tactics the enthusiastically pro-vax crowd is relying on, and I feel reassured that I haven't missed anything.

This is exactly how I feel, with a couple things reversed of course smile.gif. I started really getting into vaccine research because soooo many people I interact with delay or don't vaccinate. I kept wondering if there was something I was missing (and still do sometimes! Then I redo a lot of research).
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#104 of 119 Old 12-29-2012, 03:34 PM
 
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Is there an AU VAERS? I swear, when it was time to research effects, I spent hours on those lists. What if Australian citizens have no access to a VAERS kind of thing?

 

ETA: Okay, I found the answer. AU physicians report the same way US physicians do--sort of, but AU adverse events seem to feed a kind of VAERS (AEFI?) also. But again, they are relying on the docs to report the issue, so I wonder if they have the same underreporting problem as the US?

http://www.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/content/cda-pubs-2004-cdi2803-pdf-cnt.htm/$FILE/cdi2803b.pdf

 

Do you understand the limitations of the VAERS?

 

Did you want me to find the entry where the father reported that the child gained the ability to fly after the vaccine? That is still in there somewhere.

 

If you think that VAERS proves any kind of link you are sadly mistaken.

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#105 of 119 Old 12-29-2012, 03:36 PM
 
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Some places have experimented with cocooning - which is when all members of the family, and caregivers, are given a pertussis booster to try and protect the newborn.  Australia had it, then rescinded it as they decided it was not effective. 

 

The govt decided there was not enough evidence to show it was cost effective, big difference to what you are implying.

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#106 of 119 Old 12-29-2012, 06:10 PM
 
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RE: Wikipedia, I 'll have to dig up a link, but I remember the founder was interviewed and asked if people should be citing his site to buttress their arguments. He said no because no one should be citing ANY encylopedia for that. The role of an encyclopedia, wiki or not, is to give a broad overview of an issue, but a responsible researcher needs to dig deeper. You'll never see me cite Wikipedia for my arguments. Period.

The Wiki article in this thread quotes Specter's OPINION. His personal (and verifiably false) view that NVIC is "anti-vax" holds no more weight than anyone else's in this thread.

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#107 of 119 Old 12-29-2012, 06:29 PM
 
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He probably meant for research, in which case he's correct. Students writing papers, etc, should be using primary sources not encyclopedias. I doubt he meant people talking on discussion forums.
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#108 of 119 Old 12-29-2012, 06:43 PM
 
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I expect a high caliber of supporting evidence either way.

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#109 of 119 Old 12-29-2012, 07:09 PM
 
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Alright then.

I think wiki can be really useful in conversations like these. It gives a good overview of a topic. I don't see it as substantially different than using a source lik novice or even the CDC, vs only citing pubmed sources. They all have their place. IMO.
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#110 of 119 Old 12-29-2012, 07:09 PM
 
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Wiki is also generally very well cited and referenced.
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#111 of 119 Old 12-29-2012, 09:41 PM
 
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The Wiki article in this thread quotes Specter's OPINION. His personal (and verifiably false) view that NVIC is "anti-vax" holds no more weight than anyone else's in this thread.

 

The NVIC is anti-vax, take a look at this page:

 

http://www.nvic.org/Vaccines-and-Diseases/Autism.aspx

 

It is all innuendo about vaccines and autism, it does not come out and say it but it also fails to mention the dozens of studies across multiple countries covering 10's of thousands of children that did not find a single link between vaccines and autism.

 

They put up an anecdotal scare story about a child that "got" autism after the MMR vaccine, then addressed his "immune dysfunction", then he got better but says nothing at all about the studies that show no such link then the NVIC can safely be classified as "anti-vax".

 

If they are not anti-vax please explain the lack of mentioning the studies that find no link.

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#112 of 119 Old 12-30-2012, 05:36 AM
 
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I have no interest in about 90% of this thread, but Wikipedia is one of my pet issues.
When examined head to head via random auditing, Wikipedia was as accurate as the encyclopedia brittanica. Yes, anyone can edit it. But you know what happens when you have a large group of people working on an article and few of them have an agenda? The handful of people posting inaccurate stuff immediately have it corrected by the much larger number working to keep the article accurate.
Wikipedia is not a primary source. however, it IS remarkably accurate and reliable. The whole "you can put anything on Wikipedia" nonsense is just not true, and really belies a misunderstanding about how things like Wikipedia work.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reliability_of_Wikipedia

Right. You have a large group of mainstream peopleie the majority working on something and someone comes along who is not mainstream and corrects some misinformation ie the minority. And the majority jumps all over it declaring it bullshit so it stands. No I'm pretty familiar with how it works.
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#113 of 119 Old 12-30-2012, 06:14 AM
 
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Like I said. Wiki is usually well cited and referenced.
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#114 of 119 Old 12-30-2012, 06:48 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Like I said. Wiki is usually well cited and referenced.

Kind of the definition of mainstream information (usually)!

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#115 of 119 Old 12-30-2012, 09:05 AM
 
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A heads up for everyone.  I have asked that Wendy remove her post regarding school shootings.  I am also going to ask Kathymuggle, Wendy, and tux to stop the personal attacks.  Your posting privileges to this thread if they continue.  Kathymuggle discussing other posters is still a personal attack and will not be allowed.  I am removing those posts.  If you wish to discuss this, you can do so via PM, not on the open forum.  Thanks!


 
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#116 of 119 Old 12-30-2012, 10:43 AM
 
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In reading the posts on this thread over the last week, it is very clear to me that those who oppose freedom of choice when it comes to vaccination are much more interested in attacking individuals who are advocating for freedom of information on this subject then they are in participating in a respectful and educated exchange of ideas on this scientific issue.

 

They have said many things about me which are simply untrue and completely unverifiable but I am not concerned about that - they have been doing this for many years. But I am concerned about their misinformation about deaths from infectious diseases.

 

Australia, like the US, is currently in a record-breaking epidemic of whooping cough (pertussis). Like the US, Australia has a very high rate of vaccination. Mass vaccination started in Australia in 1953 and today, we have more cases of pertussis then we did before mass vaccination - despite more than 92% of our children aged under 4 being fully vaccinated. 75% of these kids were fully vaccinated, 14% were partially vaccinated and 11% were either unvaccinated or were too young to be vaccinated at the time of diagnosis.

 

If the vaccine were working and our vaccination rate were over 90%, you would expect that the majority of those getting the disease would be vaccinated even if the vaccine were at least partially effective just by the law of averages. But to have had a huge increase in the reports of pertussis along with a huge increase in our vaccination rate (in 1991, only 71% of eligible children were vaccinated with just under 350 cases reported nationwide vs our current 92% vaccination rate and almost 40,000 cases reported last year) indicates that the vaccine isn't working.

 

And the medical literature shows very clearly that it isn't working for one of 2 possible reasons (there could be more):

 

1- The bacteria has mutated - potentially due to the use of the pertussis vaccine (in much the same way that overuse of antibiotics selects for other strains of antibiotic-resistent bacteria). In Australia, 84% of the pertussis that is being diagnosed is caused by a different bacteria then the one in the shot. This 'newer' strain seems to be more virulent, leading to an increase in deaths amongst vulnerable infants. The same exact situation is occurring in the US. The unvaccinated are being blamed but the evidence is pointing to the fact that the vaccine may be responsible.

 

2- New research is emerging to show that those who receive the whooping cough vaccine may be up to 40 times more likely to contract a related illness whose symptoms are virtually identical to whooping cough. B. pertussis is the bacterium that causes whooping cough; b. parapertussis is a related bacterium. Those who are vaccinated against pertussis may be far more susceptible to infection with parapertussis and babies are just as likely to die or be hospitalised with this infection as they are with pertussis. Unless serotyping is done, the cases will most likely be recorded as whooping cough.

 

Lastly, I would like to make a comment on the death of Dana McCaffery. I never contacted her parents. When she died, the media immediately blamed the unvaccinated for her death. She was hospitalised one day, diagnosed the next and died a few days later. To the best of my knowledge at the time, the best test for whooping cough was a blood culture whose results take up to 10-14 days for a positive result. This is why I contacted the Public Health Unit (not the hospital, not the parents) and I was able to do so because Dana's parents had come public about their child's death. 

 

I spoke with Paul Corben of the North Coast Public Health Unit and he informed me that Dana's case of whooping cough had been diagnosed by a newer quick test. I later researched and discovered that the quick test can give up to 100% false positive results and is not at all reliable which is why in at least one media report, I stated that Dana supposedly died of whooping cough. This is what those who oppose the AVN call harassment though they don't ever question those who abuse parents whose children (like my own) have either been seriously injured or died as a result of their vaccination.

 

It is time to take the fear and hatred out of this issue. If the vaccines work, then the vaccinated children and adults of this world should not be concerned about those of us who choose to abstain due to our own research. If vaccination cannot protect the individual, then they cannot protect at all.

 

Please excuse the length of this response, but I felt it was important to set the record straight. I know that i will be attacked by those who regularly follow my comments on any threads in any forums in order to denigrate me personally and as I said before, that is not my concern. I am simply commenting to say - let's stop worrying about the individuals and start worrying about the lack of science to show that vaccinations are either safe, effective or worth administering to every single man, woman and child in this world. As Barbara Loe Fisher from the National Vaccine Information Centre says - show us the science. That's all we ask as well. Show us the science, and give us the choice.

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#117 of 119 Old 12-30-2012, 02:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Marnica View Post


Right. You have a large group of mainstream peopleie the majority working on something and someone comes along who is not mainstream and corrects some misinformation ie the minority. And the majority jumps all over it declaring it bullshit so it stands. No I'm pretty familiar with how it works.

 

No that is not how it works, it does not matter if the editor is part of the majority or minority, edits that are well referenced will stay.

 

If the edit is removed I can only guess that it did not meet the referencing requirements. There is no conspiracy to suppress anything but poorly referenced edits.

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#118 of 119 Old 12-30-2012, 07:38 PM
 
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Again, I am going to ask people to contact me via PM if they have an issue with moderation. When you post your issue in the open thread with the quoted thing you find offensive, I then not only have to look at the post you are refering to and see if it does need an edit, I then have to go and remove the post you have quoted.  This makes double the work for the moderators.

 

  If you see something that doesn't get taken care of in a time that you think is appropriate, please keep in mind that moderators are volunteers, often with jobs, and with families that they are tryiing to spend time with over the holidays or working on things like the Holiday Helper program.  We are not ignoring you.  We are busy with things outside of MDC over the holidays.

 

  I would love to see the members of this board take a time out and maybe have a truce for a couple more days.  I am sure that I and other moderators will devote some extra TLC to the vax forum when the holidays are over. 

 

 

With that in mind, I am closing this thread for the time being so I can go to sleep and then celebrate the New Year tomorrow!  I hope you all have a marvelous holiday!  flowersforyou.gif


 
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#119 of 119 Old 01-01-2013, 08:06 AM
 
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I have gone through the thread and removed a few posts that are against the UA. There were also quite a few posts from new members that were held in moderation that are now posted. This should not be mistaken for these posts getting an official "moderator stamp of approval". What this means is that they were held for moderation simply because they are new members and they have been checked for spam and a few other things. I will reiterate with QOTM said, several UA violations, misunderstanding about appropriate channels for discussing moderator actions and quoting and debating flagged posts meant that this one thread took quite a few moderators and hours to get through. Members should avoid contributing to this so everyone can expect a good turnaround. Please remember that Vax is just one of a hundred or so forums on MDC.   Happy new year, everyone! 


Mama to DD September 2001 and DD April 2011 *Winner for most typos* eat.gif
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