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#31 of 45 Old 01-03-2013, 06:59 AM
 
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But Taxi has not given a number. Like Rrrrachel I genuinely want to know how many are we actually talking compared to the total number of vaccination given. Because all that I've read says the reaction rate is very small and 99.999% of babies do not have serious reactions. 

 

Of course I'm sad for those children who did suffer serious reactions, but that doesn't make it any less rare and any less unlikely to happen to the child of someone Googling vaccine safety online. 

How can Taxi give you a number? Those cases are "anecdotal". They are routinely denied as vaccine reactions by the very medical profession that claims such reactions are extremely rare.  That doesn't mean their stories are not out there. As I said one just has to look. I don't categorically label the thousands (at least and no I don't have an actual number) of families that have witnessed their child react to vaccines (only to be told it was merely a coincidence) as misguided and looking for something to blame. I take their stories into consideration. Nobody knows their child better than a parent does. For me it's food for thought.

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#32 of 45 Old 01-03-2013, 07:11 AM
 
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I wasn't expecting you to quote a number, just asking what you think based on your experiences talkin to these families and movin in these circles. Are we talking hundreds? Thousands? Tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands? Millions?

 

I personally know 7 (edit -- make that 8)  autistic children whose parents have before-vaccination and after-vaccination video.  I don't "know" them through the magic of internet, nor do I "know" them through autism support groups. I went to one autism support group meeting when my child was first diagnosed, and never went back, as they had a guest speaker (a psychiatrist) who was strongly recommending ADD meds and trying to sign people up for drug trials. 

 

So here's the breakdown:

 

1 is the grandchild of a neighbor.  2 are children of colleagues. 2 are classmates of my children. 1 is the brother of my middle child's classmate.  And 1 is the child of my brother-in-law's colleague, who has become a family friend. And 1 is the child of a relative-by-marriage (not a blood relative).

 

Wait a minute--that's 8.  Okay.  I know 8 personally.  I'm not counting  3 children of my husband's colleagues, because I've never met them, only heard about them. (And both hubby and I have small workplaces--fewer than 10 colleagues.

 

I'm not talking about how many autistic children I know.  This is JUST the number of children I personally know who had severe reactions to vaccines, and also have diagnoses of severe regressive autism.  Since this is the video age, all their parents have day-before-vaccination and day-after-vaccination videos.  I've only seen those videos for 3 of the children, and it's chillingly clear.

 

I also have a neighbor  whose kid had a vaccine reaction that caused a lifelong seizure disorder, but he does not have an autism diagnosis, so I am not counting him.  He does have an ADHD diagnosis, and has an unspecified mental illness (unspecified meaning his parents didn't share the diagnosis with the neighborhood) for which he is medicated and under the care of a psychiatrist.

 

I'm also not counting the children I know with diagnoses of high-functioning autism, Asperger's, or PDD-NOS.  And I'm not counting my own children.

 

And these children were all born within a five-year time frame.  I'm sure there are many more, both older and younger, but my paths have not crossed their parents' in our community.

 

You're the statician, Rrrrachel.  Based on my experience, taking into account that these are children I met through the mainstream community, NOT through any special needs circle, how many are we talking about?  Are we talking hundreds? Thousands? Tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands? Millions?

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#33 of 45 Old 01-03-2013, 08:28 AM
 
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I'm not asking for taxi to quantify how many of these cases are out there so much as ballpark what she considers "staggering"
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#34 of 45 Old 01-03-2013, 08:39 AM
 
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Taxi I'm not sure I can really consider your experience a random sample so I'm not comfortable extrapolating it. I already took my statistician crack at it further up thread.
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#35 of 45 Old 01-03-2013, 09:26 AM
 
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I personally know 7 (edit -- make that 8)  autistic children whose parents have before-vaccination and after-vaccination video.  I don't "know" them through the magic of internet, nor do I "know" them through autism support groups. I went to one autism support group meeting when my child was first diagnosed, and never went back, as they had a guest speaker (a psychiatrist) who was strongly recommending ADD meds and trying to sign people up for drug trials. 

 

So here's the breakdown:

 

1 is the grandchild of a neighbor.  2 are children of colleagues. 2 are classmates of my children. 1 is the brother of my middle child's classmate.  And 1 is the child of my brother-in-law's colleague, who has become a family friend. And 1 is the child of a relative-by-marriage (not a blood relative).

 

Wait a minute--that's 8.  Okay.  I know 8 personally.  I'm not counting  3 children of my husband's colleagues, because I've never met them, only heard about them. (And both hubby and I have small workplaces--fewer than 10 colleagues.

 

I'm not talking about how many autistic children I know.  This is JUST the number of children I personally know who had severe reactions to vaccines, and also have diagnoses of severe regressive autism.  Since this is the video age, all their parents have day-before-vaccination and day-after-vaccination videos.  I've only seen those videos for 3 of the children, and it's chillingly clear.

 

I also have a neighbor  whose kid had a vaccine reaction that caused a lifelong seizure disorder, but he does not have an autism diagnosis, so I am not counting him.  He does have an ADHD diagnosis, and has an unspecified mental illness (unspecified meaning his parents didn't share the diagnosis with the neighborhood) for which he is medicated and under the care of a psychiatrist.

 

I'm also not counting the children I know with diagnoses of high-functioning autism, Asperger's, or PDD-NOS.  And I'm not counting my own children.

 

And these children were all born within a five-year time frame.  I'm sure there are many more, both older and younger, but my paths have not crossed their parents' in our community.

 

You're the statician, Rrrrachel.  Based on my experience, taking into account that these are children I met through the mainstream community, NOT through any special needs circle, how many are we talking about?  Are we talking hundreds? Thousands? Tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands? Millions?

 

And I don't know anyone who has had a vaccine reaction or autism.  Extrapolating causation from anecdotes isn't very informative.


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#36 of 45 Old 01-03-2013, 09:34 AM
 
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And I don't know anyone who has had a vaccine reaction or autism.  Extrapolating causation from anecdotes isn't very informative.

 Maybe to you, but I find it informative. As I said upthread It gives one food for thought. 


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#37 of 45 Old 01-03-2013, 09:38 AM
 
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I know one child with autism and one in the process of receiving a diagnosis.  Neither set of parents feels vaccines were an issue (and their feelings should count as much as those who feel vaccines were at fault).  So, there's some more anecdata.


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#38 of 45 Old 01-03-2013, 09:40 AM
 
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I'm not asking for taxi to quantify how many of these cases are out there so much as ballpark what she considers "staggering"

Oh, if that's all you want, then that's an easy one to answer.

 

I consider it "staggering" that I personally know 8 kids who have had severe vaccine reactions, along with videotaped evidence of neurological damage, showing both the day before and the day after vaccination, AND diagnoses of profound regressive autism. I think it's important to note that I am only listing children I know personally, and that I have met them all through the mainstream community, NOT through the "autism community."

 

40 years ago, the rate of profound autism was considered to be 1 in 10,000.  When I was growing up, there was ONE severely autistic child in our suburb (which coincidentally numbered around 10,000).  There were 4 small elementary schools, and everybody pretty much knew everyone else from nursery school, summer programs, church, synagogue, and sports.  

 

The fact that I personally know not one but EIGHT kids whose parents have video proof of vaccine reaction resulting in profound autism is staggering.

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#39 of 45 Old 01-03-2013, 09:45 AM
 
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I know one child with autism and one in the process of receiving a diagnosis.  Neither set of parents feels vaccines were an issue (and their feelings should count as much as those who feel vaccines were at fault).  So, there's some more anecdata.

I know at least 6  less-severely autistic kids whose parents don't feel that vaccines were at fault, and several kids with either HFA/Asperger's or other neurological issues whose parents do feel that vaccines were at fault. I also know one kid whose mother says that her kid was "autistic since birth" (and he did receive all vaccines on schedule the first year, including the birth dose of hep b); she stopped vaccines after one year, but he's still autistic, so she considers that "proof" that vaccines weren't in any way involved.

 

But I didn't include any of that in what I thought was "staggering."

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#40 of 45 Old 01-03-2013, 09:47 AM
 
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Taxi I'm not sure I can really consider your experience a random sample so I'm not comfortable extrapolating it. I already took my statistician crack at it further up thread.

 

You asked what I considered "staggering," and I answered.

 

You also asked me for numbers, but since you are the statistician, I thought it would be better if you figured out the numbers.  Since you don't really consider my experience a random sample, you wouldn't be comfortable with any numbers I came up with, anyway, so I'm not sure why you asked in the first place.

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#41 of 45 Old 01-03-2013, 12:04 PM
 
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More anecdotes - out of 30 children in my daughters class (born 2007) 1 has something which I assume is autism (haven't asked about parents thoughts about causes). 1 has Downs Syndrome. I know of no other children of any of my friends, neighbours or colleagues with autism. I have a friend with a child with Cerebral Palsy.

 

Taxi - your number of 8 autistic children needs to be put in context. How many children total would constitute your sample? How can you expect any extrapolation without that number. And even so I would say it's likely to be a biased sample so not a good point to extrapolate from. 


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#42 of 45 Old 01-03-2013, 12:30 PM
 
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You asked what I considered "staggering," and I answered.

You also asked me for numbers, but since you are the statistician, I thought it would be better if you figured out the numbers.  Since you don't really consider my experience a random sample, you wouldn't be comfortable with any numbers I came up with, anyway, so I'm not sure why you asked in the first place.

Because I was curious. And because that's kind of how conversation goes.
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#43 of 45 Old 01-03-2013, 03:41 PM
 
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Taxi - your number of 8 autistic children needs to be put in context. How many children total would constitute your sample? How can you expect any extrapolation without that number. And even so I would say it's likely to be a biased sample so not a good point to extrapolate from. 

Let's not shoot the messenger.  I didn't bring it up--Rrrrrachel asked me (several times) to provide numbers, and to explain what I meant by "staggering."

 

All I did was try to answer her question as accurately as possible.

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#44 of 45 Old 01-04-2013, 12:12 AM
 
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Let's not shoot the messenger.  I didn't bring it up--Rrrrrachel asked me (several times) to provide numbers, and to explain what I meant by "staggering."

All I did was try to answer her question as accurately as possible.

I'm just asking you to put the number in context. Surely you can see why that's necessary.

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#45 of 45 Old 01-04-2013, 08:19 AM
 
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Posting this here as it is relevant to the OP.

 

http://www.rescuepost.com/files/asd05_mullanyasko.pdf

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