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#1 of 45 Old 12-27-2012, 05:06 PM - Thread Starter
 
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A Coles notes version of Mitochondrial disease:

 

 

Children with a mitochondrial disorder can regress into an autism like state if one of several things happen.  One of them is a fever, and fever, as we all know, is a common side effect of vaccination.  Hannah Poling had an underlying mitochondrial disorder, and was awarded compensation for vaccines role in aggravating her condition into a autism like state.  

 

This article takes a look fever, autism and MD

 

http://blog.autismspeaks.org/2010/03/11/fever-regression/

 

"About 4% of children with ASD have definite mitochondrial disease2,3 (5 of 120 = 4.2%).  In 12 children (12/17= 71%) the regressions began within 2 weeks of a fever greater than 101˚F.  In 4 of the 12 (33%; or 4/28 = 14% of all the cases of ASD and mitochondrial disease), the fever occurred after routine vaccination.  In 8 of the 12 (67%), the fever occurred after an infection or was of unknown origin.  Fever in patients with mitochondrial disease can occur with a known infection or inflammatory reaction, or can be a “fever of unknown origin” (FUO), without any cause that can be identified.  Five of the 17 (5/17=29%) had no fever or documented infection."

 

This meta-analysis puts the Mito rate in those with autism at 5%, and the general public at 1/1000

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3285768/

 

We know that fever causes some children with mitochondrial disease to slide into autism-like symptoms.  We know that a very common side effect of vaccines is fever, and that the fever only has to be over 101.

 

I do know that VAD can cause fever.  But you know what we don't have kicking around in many wealthy countires?  Most VAD's.  Feel free to check with the CDC pink book.

 

I know that some of you think vaccines keep VAD's from making a strong comeback (which is only the case with some VAD's, btw).  However there is no doubt in my mind that there are more fevers from vaccines than from VAD in the under 3 set.   Vaccines might be more dangerous to children with Mito than VAD's given the prevalence of most VADs.

 

In my mind, given the fact Mito are somewhat common, can cause a slide into autism and are brought on by fevers, it makes sense to delay vaccines until the period of "sliding into autism" (typically by 36 months) is past.  It might also give people time to realise if their child has mitochondrial disease, as this is not usually diagnosed at birth which is when vaccines start.  I realise some vaccines are important to some people for infants (pertussis and rota come to mind) but many can be delayed safely.  I also realise tylenol can decrease the likelihood of fever, but it may not decrease it enough, moreover tylenol can lower the immune response people want after a vaccination.  

 

Another interesting read (non -vax slant, and asks some good questions) on Mito and ASD:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-kirby/government-concedes-vacci_b_88323.html

 

(sorry about the wonky formatting.  I tried to fix it to no avail)

 

 

 

 

 

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#2 of 45 Old 12-27-2012, 07:29 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Another quote on mito prevalence and ASD:

http://www.epidemicanswers.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/ASD-Secondary-to-Mito1.pdf

 

   

"Autism secondary to mitochondrial disease (AMD) was once thought to be rare. However, several recent research articles suggest there is a cohort of ASD children with underlying mitochondrial disease. Some geneticists believe that the rate of mitochondrial disease may be as high as 1 in 200 live births,1 and the United Mitochondrial Disease Foundation (UMDF) states that every 30 minutes a child is born who will develop a mitochondrial disease by age 10.2Thus, many children who exhibit ASD symptoms may actually have underlying mitochondrial disease; unfortunately at this time, they are “undiagnosed,” and many doctors are unaware of the emerging research. AMD can occur when there are problems within the process known as oxidative phosphorylation.


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#3 of 45 Old 12-27-2012, 10:28 PM
 
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One other thing to consider with mitochondrial disease... is that a number of common chemicals can be toxic to your mitochondria...

including acetaminophen and aluminum salts (like those found in vaccine adjuvants) (as well as MSG, aspartame, artificial colors, cry cleaning chemicals and pesticides)

 

http://babyfoodsteps.wordpress.com/2012/04/09/mitoxic-why-acetaminophen-may-not-be-good-for-any-of-us-especially-mitochondrial-disease-patients/

 

http://babyfoodsteps.wordpress.com/2012/12/14/mitotoxic-why-aluminum-may-not-be-good-for-any-of-us-especially-mitochondrial-disease-patients/

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#4 of 45 Old 12-28-2012, 07:25 AM - Thread Starter
 
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One other thing to consider with mitochondrial disease... is that a number of common chemicals can be toxic to your mitochondria...

including acetaminophen and aluminum salts (like those found in vaccine adjuvants) (as well as MSG, aspartame, artificial colors, cry cleaning chemicals and pesticides)

 

http://babyfoodsteps.wordpress.com/2012/04/09/mitoxic-why-acetaminophen-may-not-be-good-for-any-of-us-especially-mitochondrial-disease-patients/

 

http://babyfoodsteps.wordpress.com/2012/12/14/mitotoxic-why-aluminum-may-not-be-good-for-any-of-us-especially-mitochondrial-disease-patients/

Thanks for this!

 

I am trying to figure out the role of fever, vaccines, mitochondrial disorder and autism.

 

Avoiding fever seems to be key to avoiding a slide into autism for children with mito, but a quick google search does suggest acetaminophen is problematic in regards to mito:

 

http://www.mitoaction.org/forums/tylenol-versus-ibuprofen

 

This had a lot of interesting info about tylenol (yikes!  If most of it turns out to be true).  Discussion of mitochondrial, autism and acetaminophen are about half way down.  

http://guggiedaly.blogspot.ca/2011/01/dont-fear-fever-fear-fever-reducer.html

 

This was an interesting read, and it discussing whether the fever or the tylenol often used with fever is the culprit for autistic slides:

http://www.ravenintellections.com/gre/fever-mitochondria-vaccinations-autism.htm

 

I have no idea if the jury is in or out on whether fever or the acetaminaphen used to control fever cause the slide into autism in certain kids with mito, to me it still makes sense to avoid fever causing agents (including vaccines) when possible in the early years.


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#5 of 45 Old 12-28-2012, 10:56 AM
 
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here is the research I have done in relation to Mito and Vaccines...

it is a tangled web of which came first the fever or the mito or the tylenol or the vaccine or the...

well you ge it

 

http://babyfoodsteps.wordpress.com/2011/11/02/v-is-for-vaccine/

 

 

hope this helps..

do you have a child with mito?

our little girl is suspected of having it... 

more of our story is here: 

http://babyfoodsteps.wordpress.com/2012/09/20/mitochondrial-disease-our-journey-of-a-thousand-miles/

 

babyfoodsteps

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#6 of 45 Old 12-28-2012, 11:25 AM - Thread Starter
 
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here is the research I have done in relation to Mito and Vaccines...

it is a tangled web of which came first the fever or the mito or the tylenol or the vaccine or the...

well you ge it

 

http://babyfoodsteps.wordpress.com/2011/11/02/v-is-for-vaccine/

 

 

hope this helps..

do you have a child with mito?

our little girl is suspected of having it... 

more of our story is here: 

http://babyfoodsteps.wordpress.com/2012/09/20/mitochondrial-disease-our-journey-of-a-thousand-miles/

 

babyfoodsteps

 

No, I don't.

 

I have 2 nephews with autism, though.  I do have quite the interest in how vaccine and autism overlap, due to my family history.  Neither of my nephews regressed immediately after vaccines, though, and no one in my family directly blames vaccines on their autism.

 

My younger nephew did regress (quite sharply) after a virus, though.  He was about 2.25.  

 

I am going to read more about mito and ASD, and see if either or both of them fit the profile. 

 

I don't know if they have mito, it seems quite common in children on the ASD.  They have never been tested.


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#7 of 45 Old 12-28-2012, 11:45 AM
 
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A   In 4 of the 12 (33%; or 4/28 = 14% of all the cases of ASD and mitochondrial disease), the fever occurred after routine vaccination.  In 8 of the 12 (67%), the fever occurred after an infection or was of unknown origin. 

So 2/3rds of the fevers had no link to vaccines. In my experience kids do sometimes get fevers, and my kinds only once (to my recollection) had a fever as a vaccine reaction. But obviously fevers happen as relatively common reactins after vaccinations though so if there is a link between fever and development autism like symptoms, perhaps this explains why some parents are so adamant vaccines can cause the regression.

Is there any evidence that a person who developed autism following a fever could have grown out of that risk period? At the moment this just makes me more convinced that even if vaccines can trigger autism if it wasnt the vaccine it would have been something else (some other fever, either from a VPd, the common cold or other virus or an unexplained cause).

Interesting though. Thanks for sharing.

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#8 of 45 Old 12-28-2012, 11:57 AM - Thread Starter
 
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So 2/3rds of the fevers had no link to vaccines.
Yes.  They probably were not linked to VAD's either- more likely run of the mill colds and viruses.
. But obviously fevers happen as relatively common reactins after vaccinations though so if there is a link between fever and development autism like symptoms, perhaps this explains why some parents are so adamant vaccines can cause the regression.
Agreed.

Is there any evidence that a person who developed autism following a fever could have grown out of that risk period? 
I don't know.  My google-fu skills failed me in looking into this. Personally, I rarely hear of a child having a regression incidence with a slide into autism (not Aspergers) after about 3 or 4.  To me, this suggests a risk period, but I would like to see some data on this.

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#9 of 45 Old 12-28-2012, 12:12 PM - Thread Starter
 
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 At the moment this just makes me more convinced that even if vaccines can trigger autism if it wasnt the vaccine it would have been something else (some other fever, either from a VPd, the common cold or other virus or an unexplained cause).
 

 

I missed this on the first read.

 

I think it is reasonable to try and lessen triggers for autism.  Maybe it won't work (although then at least you can say you tired…and we owe our kids that, IMHO).  I think that because autism really is a disease that sets its path from pre-conception and in the first few years, it make sense to create as safe an environment as you can in the first few years.  My 2cents.gif


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#10 of 45 Old 12-30-2012, 11:46 AM
 
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I think my point is I'm not convinced avoiding vaccines does significantly lessen the chance of having a fever (and therefore an autism trigger if that is one). I think you'd be hard pressed to find a child (vaccinated or not) who made it to 36 months having never had a fever of any kind. So perhaps some have their first fever following a vaccine, but they'd have had some other fever if not. I'm convinced that all avoiding vaccines would do is leave them vulnerable to VPDs in addition to having autism.

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#11 of 45 Old 12-30-2012, 01:04 PM
 
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Who ever said that a fever alone is the trigger for autism?

There are many studies showing a link between thimerosal exposure and neurological damage, and aluminum exposure and autoimmune damage, vaccines and developmental issues, vaccines and seizure disorders, and vaccines and mitochondrial disorders.

Add a fever on top of that, and it's quite plausible that you would have a nice little recipe for autism.

The fact remains that vaccines are an invasive procedure, the science supporting their use is muddled at best, and riddled with conflicts of interest. Knowing that they can cause severe reactions and even death, they should never be mandated, and every effort should be made to screen for predisposition to severe reaction before recommending them at all. They should not be recommended to be given concurrently with other vaccines or medications without studying those risks as well. And "those risks" MUST include long-term developmental,neurological, and autoimmune outcomes.
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#12 of 45 Old 12-30-2012, 01:04 PM
 
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Sorry, double post.
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#13 of 45 Old 12-30-2012, 04:52 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Who ever said that a fever alone is the trigger for autism?
There are many studies showing a link between thimerosal exposure and neurological damage, and aluminum exposure and autoimmune damage, vaccines and developmental issues, vaccines and seizure disorders, and vaccines and mitochondrial disorders.
Add a fever on top of that, and it's quite plausible that you would have a nice little recipe for autism.
The fact remains that vaccines are an invasive procedure, the science supporting their use is muddled at best, and riddled with conflicts of interest. Knowing that they can cause severe reactions and even death, they should never be mandated, and every effort should be made to screen for predisposition to severe reaction before recommending them at all. They should not be recommended to be given concurrently with other vaccines or medications without studying those risks as well. And "those risks" MUST include long-term developmental,neurological, and autoimmune outcomes.

 There was some concern as well with regards to thimerosal and mito.  Here is a link (I got it from babyfoodstesp - she has great links!)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16273274

 

With regards to fever, if every time you have a fever, you carry a risk (if you have Mito) of an autistic regression, then it makes sense to lessen the number of times one has a fever.

 

Even if a fever over 101 is causative close to 100% of the time, it would still make sense to try to avoid fever.  Who wants to think they could have avoided harming their children but did not?

 

I find the whole talk of "triggers" interesting.  If it were an allergen I was suggesting people avoid, people would be onboard.  Many people do avoid nut products and the like for very young children in the hopes they avoid becoming allergic.  Suggesting people delay vaccines until they sort out if their baby is a good candidate for vaccines?  Nah-hah.   

 

Screening for mito disorders is tricky.  I think it involves a muscle biopsy.  I cannot see them doing it en masse at this point in time (nor would I want them to - invasive!)  That being said, conservative estimates put the rate of mito and autism at 4-7%, and many of those who have mito experience a regressive episode following something (like a fever) that resulted into a slide or fall in to autism.  I think delaying vaccines makes the best sense until they sort this out.  

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 I find the whole talk of "triggers" interesting.  If it were an allergen I was suggesting people avoid, people would be onboard.  Many people do avoid nut products and the like for very young children in the hopes they avoid becoming allergic.  Suggesting people delay vaccines until they sort out if their baby is a good candidate for vaccines?  Nah-hah.   

It's interesting that you use that as your example. There's zero evidence that that approach works, it may in fact make things worse, and it's no longer the current recommendation.

Even if it was, avoiding nuts and eggs might be a slight inconvenience. Avoiding vaccines leaves your child vulnerable when they need the protection the most.
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If you're going to delay vaccines, what happens when the actual diseases they prevent become more prevalent, and the fevers thy cause, and they cause mito flare ups, plus all the other complications that come with them? Children with mito disorders are at increased risk of complications and death from these diseases. They need vaccines even more than most!

You can't protect kids from fevers. They're a art of life. Hannah poling, for example, had frequent bouts with ear infections. It's not clear if those fevers or one caused by her vaccination caused her encephalopathy.
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And there's a whole lot of assuming going on here there ARE postnatal "triggers" for autism, which has not been established.
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If you're going to delay vaccines, what happens when the actual diseases they prevent become more prevalent, and the fevers thy cause, and they cause mito flare ups, plus all the other complications that come with them?
There is no evidence that fevers from VPDs cause more mitochondrial disorders than the vaccines themselves. If this were so, we would have seen a reduction in mitochondrial disorders (and autism) as the vaccine schedule tripled.
Children with mito disorders are at increased risk of complications and death from these diseases. They need vaccines even more than most!
Not when vaccines can trigger mito disorders that result in autism.  
You can't protect kids from fevers. They're a art of life. Hannah poling, for example, had frequent bouts with ear infections. It's not clear if those fevers or one caused by her vaccination caused her encephalopathy.
Or her frequent bouts with ear infections may have been the result of vaccines:  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20825107/ns/health-childrens_health/t/shot-may-be-inadvertently-boosting-superbugs/  A vaccine that has dramatically curbed pneumonia and other serious illnesses in children is having an unfortunate effect: promoting new superbugs that cause ear infections.
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#18 of 45 Old 01-02-2013, 11:28 AM
 
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And there's a whole lot of assuming going on here there ARE postnatal "triggers" for autism, which has not been established.

The staggering number of parents who have video footage of the day before their children received vaccines (when the child presented as developmentallyy normal or even advanced), and the day after (when the child was spinning, flapping, toe-walking, screaming, head-banging, and unable to talk or manage eye contact), is more than assumption.

 

It's data.

 

Try listening to those parents.  You might learn something.

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#19 of 45 Old 01-02-2013, 11:50 AM
 
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Can you ballpark "staggering" for me?
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Can you ballpark "staggering" for me?

I suppose staggering is a subjective term. But I will say that there are many cases as Taxi describes. All one has to do is google a bit and you could spend days looking at these videos. 


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Can you ballpark "staggering" for me?

Can you ballpark "being more interested in snarking at someone rather than looking objectively at the point they've presented and then discussing it like a grown-up?"

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#22 of 45 Old 01-02-2013, 01:42 PM
 
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I suppose staggering is a subjective term. But I will say that there are many cases as Taxi describes. All one has to do is google a bit and you could spend days looking at these videos. 

 

But Taxi has not given a number. Like Rrrrachel I genuinely want to know how many are we actually talking compared to the total number of vaccination given. Because all that I've read says the reaction rate is very small and 99.999% of babies do not have serious reactions. 

 

Of course I'm sad for those children who did suffer serious reactions, but that doesn't make it any less rare and any less unlikely to happen to the child of someone Googling vaccine safety online. 


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#23 of 45 Old 01-02-2013, 01:44 PM
 
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It's hard for me to actually discuss it when the measures are so subjective, which is why I'm trying to nail down a ball park figure. It's difficult to find reliable information about sudden regression into autism.
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#24 of 45 Old 01-02-2013, 01:52 PM
 
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I did come across this by way of Wikipedia, which I hadn't seen before.

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11065-008-9073-y/fulltext.html

I haven't read the whole thing, yet, but it cites that 15-47% of children with autism regress after developing normally. I haven't gotten far enough to see what portion of those happen seemingly overnight.
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From the above:
Quote:
As previously mentioned, regression is slow and insidious, although about one-third of cases demonstrate more abrupt onset that becomes evident over the course of days or at most a few weeks. Rapid onset is more commonly associated with identifiable trigger events such as medical illness, emotional trauma, physical trauma, or seizures (Kurita 1985).

So 15-47% (the majority of studies seem to put it around 30%) of autism cases are regressive. Most of those regress gradually, about one third (so 5-15%, most estimates around 10% of all autism cases) happen more suddenly (but no mention of overnight).

So lets see, about 1% of the population is autistic, so around .05% to .15% of the population has regressive autism? Or 5/10,000 - 15/10,000? And then some unknown subset of them happen more suddenly than over a few days? I have embarrassing issues with place value sometimes, so someone check my math!
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#26 of 45 Old 01-02-2013, 02:34 PM
 
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I thought this was interesting, too.
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One possibility is that regression reflects the late sequelae of congenital dysfunction that is present but silent in early development. This possibility finds support in results showing that a proportion of children with RASD demonstrate subtle to obvious pre-existing problems in development. According to this viewpoint, regression may emerge between 15 and 30 months of age because pathological neural networks come “online” in this period of neurodevelopment that may be incapable of subserving a necessary role in mediating social and communicative behavior, or may otherwise have an inhibitory influence on the function of these systems.

This is in no way conclusive, and there are several competing theories addressed in the article. Even if it was the case for some or most cases of rasd, that doesn't rule out some of them being caused by vaccination, which would of course shrink the above estimates even smaller.

Also interesting is the article discusses how language regression is the most common form of rasd, so the number of children who regress over night into something like toe walking, circle spinning, and arm flapping is presumably even smaller than the above estimates, but I'm kind of off book there.
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#27 of 45 Old 01-02-2013, 03:12 PM
 
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There have been a few reports on this thread. I want to remind folks of a couple of things from the UA for this forum: 

Intelligent, informative, and civil debate should be the shining light of this forum. Do not stoop to accusation, condescending comments and veiled insults against an individual's character or intentions in posting here, as if that will somehow discredit the person or information.

Reporting of posts is only for direct namecalling and severe personal attacks.

 

Members' attempt to elevate the conversation is noted and appreciated. 


Mama to DD September 2001 and DD April 2011 *Winner for most typos* eat.gif
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#28 of 45 Old 01-02-2013, 07:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

 

But Taxi has not given a number. Like Rrrrachel I genuinely want to know how many are we actually talking compared to the total number of vaccination given. Because all that I've read says the reaction rate is very small and 99.999% of babies do not have serious reactions. 

 

Of course I'm sad for those children who did suffer serious reactions, but that doesn't make it any less rare and any less unlikely to happen to the child of someone Googling vaccine safety online. 

You have given me a very interesting idea; I'll see if some of the major autism support groups will consider doing a poll to find out how many of the parents who are long-term members have before-and-after video indicating vaccine reaction linked with onset of autism symptoms.  Perhaps they can make a YouTube channel specifically for such videos.

As you know, there are no numbers for me to quote, because no researchers have ever talked with the parents, or viewed their day-before-and-day-after videos. Every such parent I have ever met (I personally know 7), or corresponded with, or read/seen their testimony, has said the same thing: when they told their doctors what had happened AND WHEN (immediately after vaccines), they were blown off.  Their doctors told them that they were fantasizing,  that they were desperately looking for something to blame, that they were wrong. The doctors didn't believe them. They didn't believe that the parents wanted to prevent this from happening to another child; they just assumed that they were looking for something to blame.  

 

How many of you have thought the same thing?  I am ashamed to admit that that's what I thought.  Even after my own child had a severe reaction, I believed the nurse who told me over the phone that I was over-reacting. It took ALL of my children's reactions to convince me that there was something really wrong. 

 

Do you have any IDEA what it feels like to be accused of over-reacting when in fact, something is really terribly wrong?  Do you even care?

I only know one couple who managed to convince their pediatrician to view their video.  He admitted to them privately that they were clearly right, but told them flat out that it would put him in "the hot seat" if he were to report their reaction.  He advised them to immediately drop the whole issue, and to spend their energy on getting as much help for their son as possible, rather than proving that it was the vaccine that caused the reaction.  And by this time, it was far too late for them to bring their case to vaccine court.

So if the current "studies" of vaccination outcome are based on reports--or lack thereof-- from doctors who are either unable or unwilling to see that vaccination can cause brain damage, developmental regression, autoimmune disorders, and yes, symptoms of autism--then those studies are biased and inaccurate.

So we can't rely on those "studies" for information about something most of the medical community either pretends doesn't exist, or doesn't realize it.

The fact that otherwise intelligent and caring individuals point to flawed statistics instead of looking at the real human beings who have severe reactions shows why that information is so sorely needed.

 

If we compared vaccine reaction to peanut allergy, the typical scenario at the doctor's would be something like this:

 

“Mother: He just ate his first peanut butter sandwich, and suddenly, his lips and face swelled up, and he couldn't breathe!


Doctor: Calm down, don't jump to hysterical conclusions. Correlation does not equal causation. It was genetics. Or coincidence. Or both. But it had nothing to do with the peanut butter!

Mother: But we have peanut allergies on both sides of the family!

Doctor: Nonsense! We know peanuts don't cause reactions, because the peanut industry has kindly provided us with their own studies, done on kids with no family history or other risk of peanut allergy. They funded, directed, interpreted, and marketed these studies, and THEY say that peanuts don't cause anything more than a swollen arm. You let little Timmy eat all the peanut butter sandwiches he wants, and I'll write prescriptions for the swelling, choking, vomiting, etc. If he has trouble focusing on schoolwork while he's choking, we'll give him Ritalin, too. He looks a little blue, doesn't he? Let's give him Prozac.

Mother: I think he's blue because he can't breathe!

Doctor: Nonsense! You're clearly delusional. Here are prescriptions for Zyprexa and Seroquel for you, because you must be paranoid and a conspiracy theorist. And dealing with a difficult child must be depressing, so here's a prescription for Zoloft for you as well.”

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#29 of 45 Old 01-03-2013, 04:48 AM
 
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I wasn't expecting you to quote a number, just asking what you think based on your experiences talkin to these families and movin in these circles. Are we talking hundreds? Thousands? Tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands? Millions?
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#30 of 45 Old 01-03-2013, 04:51 AM
 
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The majority of studies are not based on vaers data. I feel like we keep coming back to that. Vaers data is not the only system for monitoring vaccine safety in this country.
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