peer studies? proof?? - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 26 Old 02-15-2013, 07:01 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm totally against vaccines. I have read enough on my own to believe they are dangerous and do not truly prevent disease...but always feel a little helpless standing against people of the conventional medical community who think they know better. One in particular has asked me if there are peer reviewed studies to support that vaccines cause autism, sids, etc. And whether it can be proven that unvaccinated children don't get these.... I have a viewpoint on this but feel it's not enough for yhis conventional minded person; yet I feel with the right information, she may be swayed. Any suggestions?
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#2 of 26 Old 02-15-2013, 07:07 PM
 
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I can honestly say that there is no evidence that comes close to convincing me that unvaccinated children don't suffer from autism or SIDS, and no reputable peer-reviewed studies linking vaccination to autism.


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#3 of 26 Old 02-15-2013, 07:45 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Well I think there are several causes and that vaccinations are just one of them. But a major one. And i think peer reviewed studies are highly over rated... but hoping someone can offer something that may help a bit.
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#4 of 26 Old 02-16-2013, 10:36 AM
 
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There are peer reviewed studies that show the opposite, and there is evidence that unvaccinated children DO suffer from those things, so I'm not sure what to tell you. You obviously can believe whatever you want, but no I don't think the kind of evidence you (or the person you're talking to) are looking exists.
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#5 of 26 Old 02-16-2013, 03:38 PM - Thread Starter
 
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No, I imagine not in the conventional journals.
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#6 of 26 Old 02-16-2013, 03:51 PM
 
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Which are likely to be the only kind that will make an impression.
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#7 of 26 Old 02-16-2013, 03:55 PM - Thread Starter
 
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That's unfortunate.... the public is blinded.
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#8 of 26 Old 02-16-2013, 04:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by orthodoxmom View Post

That's unfortunate.... the public is blinded.

 

That's a fairly offensive thing to say.  Perhaps some of "the public" have eyes wide open, but have decided that scientific methods and the peer review process is more credible than the alternative offerings.

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#9 of 26 Old 02-16-2013, 05:01 PM - Thread Starter
 
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No offense intended... but I think it's unfair to the public that this information is withheld by the conventional journals and media so that they all have a chance to make an informed opinion.
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#10 of 26 Old 02-16-2013, 05:07 PM
 
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That's one spin, I guess. What information is being withheld? The other spin is that mainstream science just doesn't support these claims. It's fine for you to believe what you want based on whatever evidence you want, but that's not how science actually works.
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#11 of 26 Old 02-16-2013, 05:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by orthodoxmom View Post

No offense intended... but I think it's unfair to the public that this information is withheld by the conventional journals and media so that they all have a chance to make an informed opinion.

 

It is unfortunate the the general population is being misled.

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That's one spin, I guess. What information is being withheld? The other spin is that mainstream science just doesn't support these claims. It's fine for you to believe what you want based on whatever evidence you want, but that's not how science actually works.

 

You can believe what you want too.

 

Here is Ben Goldacre's excellent TED talk on this subject of how science misleads, as he say's "We only hear about the fukes".

 


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#12 of 26 Old 02-16-2013, 05:53 PM - Thread Starter
 
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And with all due respect, you also have a choice to believe that mainstream science is accurate and provides you with all it actually knows.
I don't mean to be offensive here. I was upfront from the beginning with my beliefs that are founded on accurate information. If you disagree, there was no need to get involved with it. Im not sure why you bothered to respond when you did not have anything to offer to what my question was. Regardless, I wish you well as I continue believe and know my child is healthier due to my steadfast research and decisions. Im moving on from this discussion. Best regards.
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#13 of 26 Old 02-16-2013, 05:55 PM
 
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Whether or not mainstream science is right is not the point. Science functions within a particular framework. This is not a secret.
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#14 of 26 Old 02-16-2013, 06:48 PM
 
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The problems arise when you put all of your faith into a frequently faulty framework.


 
 
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#15 of 26 Old 02-16-2013, 07:11 PM
 
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I dont put all y faith in science. I wouldnt say i put any faith in science. If it requires faith it's not science. I do use it as my primary basis for certain decision makin such as vaccination. What's the other option? Guessing?
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#16 of 26 Old 02-16-2013, 11:34 PM
 
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There's a great quote credited to Neil de Grasse Tyson (American astronomer).

"The wonderful thing about science is its true whether you believe it or not".

Ben Goldacre's main point is that null results (ie. no significant reaction or health issue having been found) are often not published. Why don't you read some of his opinions about not vaccinating.

And to the OP - there's no need to get cross at people responding to your question. You asked for information to help sway someone from mainstream sources. We're all just pointing out there isn't any.

I'm glad your kids are healthy following your decision to not vaccinate. Given high levels of vaccination in the rest of the population they'll likely stay fine protected by everyone else from VPD.

Mine are also very healthy (and fully vaccinated).
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#17 of 26 Old 02-17-2013, 01:04 AM
 
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Here's Ben Goldacre's blog with the tag "vaccines": http://www.badscience.net/category/vaccines/ just to help out with my suggestion.


Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

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#18 of 26 Old 02-17-2013, 08:08 AM
 
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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

Here's Ben Goldacre's blog with the tag "vaccines": http://www.badscience.net/category/vaccines/ just to help out with my suggestion.

The piece you linked to was really a criticism of the Daily Express' journalism. Maybe Ben Goldacre should look into the two HPV vaccines and the problems with them, there is plenty of information by independent researchers out there for there to be reason to be cautious about this vaccine especially as most of the research comes from the pharmaceutical companies that make them. Frankly, I get the impression that he hasn't had the bulls to get into the vaccine issue, residual programming maybe?


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#19 of 26 Old 02-17-2013, 09:32 AM
 
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She linked to everything from that blog with a certain tag, Mirzam.
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#20 of 26 Old 02-17-2013, 11:46 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I'll make one last response to this and then I'm done....

There are studies.  Several people have sent them to me via private message and I appreciate that.  Apparently I posted in the wrong forum and I appreciate those of you that let me know that.  I realize that you have a differnt opinion and that is your choice.  I'm not cross....perhaps a little annoyed because I was simply looking for information with others that have my own point of view and seek and know of research from other sources not opinions of those that are of the opposite viewpoint.  I have what I needed.  Thanks to those that helped with my question.  Best wishes to all.

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#21 of 26 Old 02-17-2013, 01:28 PM
 
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Well let us know how you get on convincing your "conventional minded person" with all that. Hard to debate or debunk your hidden resources, but apparantly you're not after that.

Odd really - seems to me a forum labelled "discussion and debate" with the big red rules at the top about whats ok to post is being pretty clear about what it is for.....

Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

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#22 of 26 Old 02-17-2013, 09:47 PM
 
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Well let us know how you get on convincing your "conventional minded person" with all that. Hard to debate or debunk your hidden resources, but apparantly you're not after that.

Odd really - seems to me a forum labelled "discussion and debate" with the big red rules at the top about whats ok to post is being pretty clear about what it is for.....
Rude? Check. Sarcastic? Check. Derisive? Check. Mocking? Check.

Miss anything? Oh, yeah, the post where you imply that non vaxxed kids are parasites leeching off the actions of all the good little vaccinators. Classic. Ok, now you get the last word... smile.gif
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#23 of 26 Old 02-17-2013, 10:23 PM
 
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I don't mean to be offensive here. I was upfront from the beginning with my beliefs that are founded on accurate information. If you disagree, there was no need to get involved with it. Im not sure why you bothered to respond when you did not have anything to offer.

 

In your opinion your beliefs are founded on accurate information.

 

Since this is the "Vaccine Discussion and Debate" forum I find it hard to believe that you honestly thought that people might disagree with your posting. Just because someone may have a different opinion than others certainly doesn't mean that they have nothing to offer to the conversation.

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#24 of 26 Old 02-18-2013, 09:48 AM
 
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An excellent article on the flawed process of peer review

 

 

 

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[R]obbie Fox, the great 20th century editor of the Lancet, who was no admirer of peer review, wondered whether anybody would notice if he were to swap the piles marked 'publish' and 'reject'. He also joked that the Lancet had a system of throwing a pile of papers down the stairs and publishing those that reached the bottom. When I was editor of the BMJ I was challenged by two of the cleverest researchers in Britain to publish an issue of the journal comprised only of papers that had failed peer review and see if anybody noticed. I wrote back 'How do you know I haven't already done it?'

http://preventdisease.com/news/13/021813_A-Flawed-Process-Is-At-The-Heart-of-Science-and-Journal-Publications.shtml

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#25 of 26 Old 02-18-2013, 10:04 AM
 
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Yeah the system has some issues. That's for sure.
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#26 of 26 Old 02-20-2013, 11:08 AM
 
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An excellent article on the flawed process of peer review

 

 

 

http://preventdisease.com/news/13/021813_A-Flawed-Process-Is-At-The-Heart-of-Science-and-Journal-Publications.shtml

Here is some more food for thought when it comes to considering research

 

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0005738

 

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2004/0404.brownlee.html

 

http://www.healio.com/pediatrics/practice-management/news/online/%7BDEE8C766-75CA-42B6-80D0-A666E459DB1A%7D/Drug-trials-funded-by-industry-more-likely-to-publish-favorable-results

 

http://www.medpagetoday.com/MeetingCoverage/PRC/15964

 

http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=185567

 

http://bostonreview.net/BR35.3/angell.php

 

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200405/cmselect/cmhealth/42/42.pdf  (about the UK but still relevant IMO)

 

http://www.uow.edu.au/~bmartin/pubs/99rsppp.html

 

some of these articles are older - but again still relevant IMO since not much has changed in this regard


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