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-   -   Prevnar and ADHD link? (http://www.mothering.com/forum/47-vaccinations/1374906-prevnar-adhd-link.html)

~Kristina~ 02-19-2013 10:05 AM

I don't know if this is the correct forum since I am seeking help and NOT debate.

With my 4th child I decided to select/delay vaccinations.  At 18 months my son received a single dose of Prevnar with no other vaccines and life turned upside down.  It wasn't over night, but things began to change.  My happy, talkative, compassionate, content son who would eat anything you put in front of him, changed.  He would throw mega tantrums, he stopped talking, would only eat certain foods and foods he loved, he wouldn't touch.  He wasn't happy anymore, he would show love and affection, stopped saying "love you".  He is 5 now and just diagnosed with ADHD, he likes talking in a baby voice, just started having bowel movements on the toilet, we still have major tantrums, He will more than likely have to repeat Kindergarten because of focus and he's a young 5 in his class.  He's currently on Adderall but that's not our long term plan.  We are now working with a behavioral therapists - though we recently switched insurance and haven't seen her since the new year.

So, that's my long story short, is there a link?  Am I grasping at straws?


prosciencemum 02-19-2013 11:54 AM

Kristina. I want to start by sending a *hug* (for what it's worth). Sounds like it's been a really rough ride for you, and it's going to be a tough path to adulthood for your son. I'm sure you're doing an amazing job and I'm sure it must be exhausting. I wish you didn't have to deal with issues with health insurance as well. 

 

There are a lot of people who post on these boards who will tell you think think this is a classic vaccine reaction. I think sadly you will get a debate even though you ask not to have one because we're not going to be able to agree on that.

 

 I'm just going to say that it is my informed opinion that there's no clear evidence of any links between vaccines and ADHD. It's my belief that it's most likely just a coincidence that your son started to display signs of his illness around the time he go the prevnar vaccine.  I don't know much about ADHD and signs in young babies, but I can guess it's plausible it wouldn't be obvious immediately, and only at around 18 months when you expect quick improvements in speech and mobility you start to notice it. 

 

I wish you all the best going forward and I hope you can satisfy yourself that your choice to give your son prevnar vaccine had no impact on this.

 

 I hope my input is helpful. 


Rrrrrachel 02-19-2013 12:53 PM

I agree with psm. I have a 19 mo and they naturally go through a lot of developmental changes at that age, vaccinated or not, that can make various things apparent that weren't before. I obviously can't tell you there's not a link with total certainty, but there's no scientific evidence that there is one between any vaccine and ADHD.

Mirzam 02-19-2013 01:40 PM

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Kristina~ View Post

I don't know if this is the correct forum since I am seeking help and NOT debate.

With my 4th child I decided to select/delay vaccinations.  At 18 months my son received a single dose of Prevnar with no other vaccines and life turned upside down.  It wasn't over night, but things began to change.  My happy, talkative, compassionate, content son who would eat anything you put in front of him, changed.  He would throw mega tantrums, he stopped talking, would only eat certain foods and foods he loved, he wouldn't touch.  He wasn't happy anymore, he would show love and affection, stopped saying "love you".  He is 5 now and just diagnosed with ADHD, he likes talking in a baby voice, just started having bowel movements on the toilet, we still have major tantrums, He will more than likely have to repeat Kindergarten because of focus and he's a young 5 in his class.  He's currently on Adderall but that's not our long term plan.  We are now working with a behavioral therapists - though we recently switched insurance and haven't seen her since the new year.

So, that's my long story short, is there a link?  Am I grasping at straws?

Yes, there is a link unfortunately, vaccine induced encephalopathy can without doubt cause ADHD symptoms. I highly recommend reading the book "Vaccination Social Violence and Criminality. The Medical Assault on the American Brain" by Harris L Coulter for an historical insight and perspective on this phenomenon. I realize the title of the book is somewhat charged with the choice of words, and I am not implying in any shape or form that your child is a potential criminal, so if you can get past that, it is a fascinating read. 

 

I am so sorry this happened to your DS, unfortunately, you did post on the wrong forum and you will get the pro-vaxers claiming it has nothing to do with the vaccine. There are many parents of vaccine damaged children here who will identify with your plight, so you might want to re-post on the I'm Not Vaccinating forum for more support.

 

ETA: I would also post on the Special Needs Parenting forum as there are parents there who have vaccine damaged children and have used alternative therapies to assist their DCs' recovery, 


Rrrrrachel 02-19-2013 02:07 PM

There's this thing called vaccine safety datalink. It uses the medical records of tens of thousands of children who belong to managed care groups in the us and automatically monitors their medical records. Something like a spike in adhd dx in children recently diagnosed with prevnar is exactly the kind of thing vsd is set up to monitor for. No such spike has been detected.

Rrrrrachel 02-19-2013 02:18 PM

This study

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3057555/

Compared vaccinated and unvaccinated children based on several characteristics, including adhd, and found no difference in the two groups.

serenbat 02-19-2013 02:24 PM

Quote:
There's this thing called vaccine safety datalink. It uses the medical records of tens of thousands of children who belong to managed care groups in the us and automatically monitors their medical records. Something like a spike in adhd dx in children recently diagnosed with prevnar is exactly the kind of thing vsd is set up to monitor for. No such spike has been detected.

 

I'm not aware the the VSD has done research on Prevnar and ADHD- what research are you referencing done by them (CDC)?

 

 

 

While they do research I am unaware that they do on all disorders at the CDC.

 

 

http://www.familypracticenews.com/news/child-adolescent-medicine/single-article/data-shows-febrile-seizures-increased-with-fluzone-plus-prevnar-13/c0ce4a976f71f7660fbf568fea4aa825.html


Rrrrrachel 02-19-2013 02:32 PM

Vaccine safety datalink monitors for all kinds of patterns. When a "signal" is received that a particular pattern is emerging it is investigated further. If there's no signal there's no investigation and no study.


I'm not sure what component of prevnar would allegedly cause ADHD. It's generally considered one of the safer vaccines, I thought.


Someone could come on here and say their child got a vaccine and then their hair color changed and some folks would say it was absolutely the vaccine that caused it. The fact remains there is no scientifically established link between ADHD and any vaccine, including prevnar. There are studies that show there ISN'T a link. Is it possible? Sure. Is it likely? Not at all.

My previously compliant charming cheerful 19 mo old is currently pitching an epic temper tantrum because she doesn't want to go in her high chair and eat dinner. I don't think it was a vaccine that caused her behavior, I think it's just a normal part of growing up.

Mirzam 02-19-2013 02:53 PM

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Rrrrachel, I am going to give the benefit of the doubt because I don't think you realize your post is offensive to those parents of vaccine damaged children who know without a shadow of a doubt that their child was injured by a vaccine. Any vaccine can cause vaccine induced encephalitis, including Prevnar. This kind of damage, can, and often does, go unnoticed initially. It could have manifested as an unusually sleepy baby that slept deeply and for longer than normal following a vaccine - excessive sleep can be symptom of encephalitis. 

 

Did you not read the OP did not want a debate? But I guess you couldn't help yourself. Yes, she posted in the debate forum so her mistake, even so, some respect of her request would have been nice.

 

To reiterate, ADHD is a collection of behaviors as defined in the DSM, these behaviors can be indicative of mild brain damage, caused by vaccine induced encephalitis. 


Rrrrrachel 02-19-2013 02:59 PM

I didn't see where op mentioned her child had encephalitis after the vaccine.

Mirzam 02-19-2013 03:12 PM

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Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

I didn't see where op mentioned her child had encephalitis after the vaccine.

You obviously don't know that encephalitis is not always obvious, so it is not noted at the time of the vaccination. In some cases it can even appear almost symptomless. 

 

You still should have respected the OP's request for no debate.


Rrrrrachel 02-19-2013 03:17 PM

What I SHOULD do is stop clicking to see your posts. and you should take your own advice.

Dakotacakes 02-19-2013 03:21 PM

I am sorry you are dealing with this.  It is heartbreaking to watch a child struggle.  I will try to avoid debate though there likely will be some just with the question "is there a link" that you want to know.  The problem is it depends on who you ask if there is a link.  To some there is a link to everything negative that can happen to a child, and vaccination.  To some nothing is linked to vaccination.  Neither pole of that argument is 100% correct.

 

The bulk of evidence in the scientific world points to no link between ADHD and vaccination status.  And trying to prove that your child has this link would be an uphill battle.  You will have supporters online and in many circles who will validate the link but that validation doesn't help your son and teh scholarship and mainstream medical research will continue to show no link.  I think you are definately on the right track with behavioral therapies especially since the diagnosis came fairly early for ADHD early diagnosis and early intervention will go a long way much longer in my opinion than trying to find a link to Prevnar. 

 

I second Mirizams suggestion to check out the special need parenting section, there are many ADHD mamas who can help with ideas to benefit your son and just as importantly provide support to you (I stress this because too many mamas don't recongize this need).  I know many have had luck with diets as well as behavioral therapy. To answer the last question Are you grasping at straws, I don't think so you are trying to help your son. 


Mirzam 02-19-2013 03:38 PM

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Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

What I SHOULD do is stop clicking to see your posts. and you should take your own advice.

I think you should stop posting personal remarks. Feel free to put me on ignore. 


pek64 02-19-2013 04:10 PM

Sorry you got the debate you wanted to avoid.

The long and the short of it is some claim to see a link between vaccines and things like autism and ADHD, while others claim there is no definitive proof of a link (and therefore conclude no link exists).

At this point, for your child, does it really matter if the vaccine caused the problem? Are you asking because you are considering other vaccinations? If you are, I think responses are going to be pretty much along party lines. Provaxers saying "sure; vaccinate", and the rest saying "be careful;don't vaccinate".


I recently read that most vpds were already declining when vaccines came into the picture. That will, no doubt, be debated, as well.

My suggestion is that you read through old vaccine debate threads and various info online to do your own research.



There's also a lot out there about diet helping autism and ADHD, so you may want to read up on that, as well.

Good luck!!

~Kristina~ 02-19-2013 04:55 PM

I feel like either the vaccine changed him or my body didn't make him correctly.  His behavior changed so much, and I'm not talking about pinching and throwing fits.  He would roll around for 20 minutes on the floor for something so minuscule and hitting himself in the head.  

My 5th isn't vaccinated yet because I can't take the chance that it will happen again, but my dh is pressuring me to give him "some of the big vaccines".  I'm already failing Dylan. 


Rrrrrachel 02-19-2013 05:01 PM

I'm so sorry Kristina. Please don't think of it as your body failed. There are so many reasons for ADHD. Even IF the vaccine caused encephalitis which causes the ADHD, a lot of the diseases vaccines prevent (and many other viruses) can also cause encephalitis. Please don't feel like this your fault, either way.

As your son gets older and you work with him and various therapists to develop coping skills I'm sure things are going to start to seem SO much better. Lots of people have ADHD and they almost all find ways to cope with it and not let it hold them back. Kids with ADHD aren't broken, they're just different. They have weaknesses, but they also have some really great strengths, too.

Hang in there. I hope you and your husband can come to an agreement you're both comfortable with.

Rrrrrachel 02-19-2013 05:04 PM

And I think Dakota's suggestion to get some support from the special needs thread is really good. Lots of moms who've been where you are!

pek64 02-19-2013 05:14 PM

If it were me, I'd continue to drag my feet, and research, research, research. Then listen to your gut. In the end, it doesn't matter what folks here say about vaccines. You, and only you, are going to have to live with the choice. Not the rest of us.

Do your research. Consider the odds.


Personally, I would avoid vaccinating, at this point. I think the risks are small, and much is known about treatments for vpds, even with complications. Others feel more comfortable vaccinating. They, no doubt, feel the risks are small, and much is known, too.


Perhaps you know what you want to do, and are looking for help convincing your husband? If that's the case, try posting again, in a different forum. You'll get different responses.

Mirzam 02-19-2013 05:31 PM

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Kristina~ View Post

I feel like either the vaccine changed him or my body didn't make him correctly.  His behavior changed so much, and I'm not talking about pinching and throwing fits.  He would roll around for 20 minutes on the floor for something so minuscule and hitting himself in the head.  

My 5th isn't vaccinated yet because I can't take the chance that it will happen again, but my dh is pressuring me to give him "some of the big vaccines".  I'm already failing Dylan. 

Kristina, I understand, its hard, but please don't feel you have failed your son. My eldest DD, now 22, has ADD, and I am sure it was from post vaccine encephalitis, she had an adverse reaction to the DPT both at four and six months. Despite being a very bright kid, school was a real struggle for her and it took her a bit longer to graduate, but she stuck at it eventually. She decided against college and now has her own house cleaning business which is perfect for her, it is also ironic because she was the messiest of kids! She has learned how to work around her ADD is happy and successful. Of course if I could do it over again, I would never have vaccinated her. But she is who she is. I have two completely unvaccinated teens who have experienced none of their big sisters difficulties. 

 

Having described your son, it really seems more than just ADHD, have you had him evaluated for sensory issues? Please visit the special needs board for support.


Escaping 02-19-2013 05:52 PM

Out of curiosity, how long has your son been on Adderall? I'm not being judgmental or trying to criticize your parenting but I'm not sure I would give a 5 year old Adderall. I've been on it for years, and it is a wonderfully helpful medication but a lot of its effects are somewhat uncomfortable and frustrating. In a young child who isn't old enough to understand and be able to cope, it might cause some of the additional behavioral problems. Personally, I don't really think Adderall would really offer a small child any benefit over its annoying side-effects. 
That being said, I'm not in your situation and don't know what you've been through already so I hope I'm not coming off as judging your choices. 


~Kristina~ 02-19-2013 06:13 PM

He's been on it since November.  I'm not happy he's on it, but he wasn't able to focus in school.  Since he's been on it, we're not receiving as many emails from his teacher.  The couple days we've missed a dose, we get emails from the teacher.  And his report card has improved.  I'm researching diets at the moment.


SuMedShadow 02-20-2013 06:39 AM

My sympathies! I have no idea if there is a link between vaccinations and ADHD. I do know about dealing with ADHD! I have it and so does my kid. Please take a look at the video on parenting options to medicine by Amanda Baten, clinical nutritionist psychologist. Medshadow.org

The website has a lot of info on side effects and long-term effects of meds. Even if you choose to use meds, best to be prepared for what the long term effects are. 

 

Also, when our kid was 12 the (Catholic) school tried to kick him out because we wouldn't put him on Ritalin. It was a long, hard fight to allow him to find his way. ADHD is often linked with other learning disabilities. Your child's frustration with undiagnosed learning disabilities might be causing some of his mood swings and bad behavior. 

 

Good luck! There are no simple answers and even the solutions might change with his age. 


columbusmomma 02-20-2013 07:50 AM

I agree with the PP who suggested having your DS checked for SPD or ASD as the signs and symptoms don't seem so much ADHD.


~Kristina~ 02-20-2013 08:42 AM

The behavioral therapist said flat out that he wasn't ASD.  I don't know where else to go.


Mirzam 02-20-2013 09:11 AM

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A developmental ped might be worth seeing for a rediagnosis. The thing with these conditions are they are basically labels and therefore the naming of them is somewhat arbitrary. I am generally not one for labels, kids are what they are, but I would seriously question the single diagnosis of ADHD. My DD never tantrumed, had sensory issues, food intolerances, or any immune deficiency conditions, like excema, asthma, it was purely attention/focus difficulties.

 

I really recommed reading on both the special needs and allergy forums. Good luck, many parents have had success in helping their kids without medications. My DD was never medicated, although her 3rd grade teacher pushed for it.


CleoS 02-20-2013 12:36 PM

My son was diagnosed with ADD and Anxiety and was quickly prescribed Zoloft at 6 years old and then Adderal about 6 months later. We didn't do either. The teachers, principal and his play therapist all highly recommended it. What we did do is remove him from school to be home-schooled and figure out exactly what was going on with him, changed his diet, changed his therapist to one that was more on our wave-length, started omega-3 and learned techniques that worked for him (although nothing works all the time) and now he is having a successful 1st grade year in school with an IEP. He does still have issues and I am not sure if he doesn't have other issues going on that are yet undiagnosed but we take it day by day.

 

And, I am not saying your son should not be on medicine BUT don't worry about emails from the teachers or what they think. You are your sons best advocate and it is about what you feel comfortable with - same goes for vaccines. No one can really tell you what to do and reading through all the threads does get exhausting and confusing. I spent many sleepless nights worrying and wondering if I was doing the right thing and how and why things are as they are. It takes time to figure it all out but just hang in there!! 


contactmaya 02-23-2013 12:58 PM

In the book Gut and Psychology Syndrome, (GAPS) Dr Natasha Campbell argues that the health of the gut will determine how well a child responds to  vaccines.  Did your child display any symptoms prior to vaccination that would suggest gut dysbiosis(imbalance of good/bad bacteria in the gut)? (im sorry if this was already mentioned upthread, i did not read the entire thread)  For eg, as a baby, was he prone to colic, eczema,  cradle cap?  Does he  have healthy regular bowels?   There are a whole host of symptoms that  indicate an imbalance of good and bad bacteria in the bowel. The child typically inherits bowel health from the mother at birth (the father pays  role by passing on his gut ecology through sexual intercourse) How is your gut health? Are you prone to digestive problems? Ibs? Do you tolerate wheat well, etc etc. (you need to look into  it further, do a google first) Dr Campbell recommends testing for gut health before receiving vaccines. 

 

A GAPS diet is also recommended for healing the gut.

 

In short, it may, or may not have been the vaccine that triggered your sons  'diagnosis' ( i dont consider adhd a real diagnosis, but im just a parent, not a doctor), but  gut dysbiosis  combined with vaccines my have led to it.

 

My son who displays some adhd symptoms, responds marvellously to  eliminating gluten, so clearly his condition is related to  how guten is metabolized and therefore the  condition of his gut.


contactmaya 02-23-2013 01:00 PM

ps, was he on antibiotics?, which kill off good bacteria


beckybird 02-23-2013 05:15 PM

My son (10) was fully vaccinated until 5, and had used antibiotics for strep throat several times. He is one of the most hyperactive children in his class (or anywhere else for that matter lol.)

We live a healthy lifestyle, but I had a feeling his behavior could be related to gluten intolerance. So, for the past week, we've made several changes. I removed all gluten from his diet, and mine as well. He loves to play video games in the evening after dinner and homework, but I made a new rule: video games on Saturday only (mean Mom!!)

 

I have to say, and I don't want to "jinx" anything, but I've seen a huge turnaround in this past week without gluten and video games. I am very encouraged by this!

(He's reading my reply as I type, and he wanted to add: "There's so many good gluten free things, that taste so good. And you should try some.")

 

 

The GAPS diet is worth learning about. I listened to this interview one night while painting the living room lol! http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=bYJkS3ZBqos

(By the way, I post videos a lot because I like to listen while working or doing something else, like working, cleaning, or cooking. Multitasking and learning at the same time.)

Also, search certain topics like "gluten and behavior" or "ADHD gluten", etc. Very helpful.



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