I'm not anti-vax, I'm pro-research! - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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#61 of 261 Old 02-26-2013, 01:30 PM
 
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Here the things about convincing evidence Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrachel. What one person finds convincing the next person may not.

Marnica you might want to look into a new keyboard - your R key seems to be sticky.

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#62 of 261 Old 02-26-2013, 02:26 PM
 
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I read the thinking moms revolution article- and actually went on to read many more of their blogs- and while I'm still not sure of a direct vaccination/autism link (though it certainly seems likely it could play a role in susceptible children), I am so saddened by the way mothers are dismissed.  NO ONE knows a child better than their mother (in most cases), and it is horrible to have these women, who saw an immediate change after their baby was immunized, dismissed and condescended to (not by people here but by doctors and the government etc).  I spend every day with my children, and have since the day they were born.  If my dd or ds were vaccine injured I fully believe I would know it, and know it better than their doctor, or the cdc or all the groups disproving the vaccine/autism link.  My heart breaks for these poor women who, first, have to go through the hell of a child's descent into autism, and then have to be told over and over again that what they know to be true is invalid.  


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#63 of 261 Old 02-27-2013, 06:56 AM
 
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Marnica you might want to look into a new keyboard - your R key seems to be sticky.

My keyboard is fine thanks...just laziness on my part. 


If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#64 of 261 Old 02-27-2013, 06:58 AM
 
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I read the thinking moms revolution article- and actually went on to read many more of their blogs- and while I'm still not sure of a direct vaccination/autism link (though it certainly seems likely it could play a role in susceptible children), I am so saddened by the way mothers are dismissed.  NO ONE knows a child better than their mother (in most cases), and it is horrible to have these women, who saw an immediate change after their baby was immunized, dismissed and condescended to (not by people here but by doctors and the government etc).  I spend every day with my children, and have since the day they were born.  If my dd or ds were vaccine injured I fully believe I would know it, and know it better than their doctor, or the cdc or all the groups disproving the vaccine/autism link.  My heart breaks for these poor women who, first, have to go through the hell of a child's descent into autism, and then have to be told over and over again that what they know to be true is invalid.  

I agree with you. However to the bolded - yes by people here. 


If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#65 of 261 Old 02-27-2013, 07:40 AM
 
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I read the thinking moms revolution article- and actually went on to read many more of their blogs- and while I'm still not sure of a direct vaccination/autism link (though it certainly seems likely it could play a role in susceptible children), I am so saddened by the way mothers are dismissed.  NO ONE knows a child better than their mother (in most cases), and it is horrible to have these women, who saw an immediate change after their baby was immunized, dismissed and condescended to (not by people here but by doctors and the government etc).  I spend every day with my children, and have since the day they were born.  If my dd or ds were vaccine injured I fully believe I would know it, and know it better than their doctor, or the cdc or all the groups disproving the vaccine/autism link.  My heart breaks for these poor women who, first, have to go through the hell of a child's descent into autism, and then have to be told over and over again that what they know to be true is invalid.  

As we are discussing a blog from Thinking Moms, I thought I would post this older blog, on just this subject

 

They Say

 

I agree with Marnica, it goes on here too.


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#66 of 261 Old 02-27-2013, 08:25 AM
 
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#67 of 261 Old 02-27-2013, 10:12 AM
 
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This article offers some insight into the "genetic" susceptibility of component of autism.

 

Old pharmaceuticals. Germ damage. Autism's hidden history.

 

 

 

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Genes related to autism and brain development appear to be more susceptible than others to novel genetic alterations occurring within the germ cells themselves, and not inherited directly from the parents. (Michaelson et al. 2012). These "de novo" mutations and epimutations can be random, or can be precipitated by destabilizing exogenous factors such as the abnormal chemical/pharmaceutical exposures discussed here. (See Research page for some relevant studies). In addition, a large percentage of the genome is devoted to genes coding for proteins relating to neurological development; therefore if one was to throw darts at the genome, brain development genes would almost certainly be among those hit. 

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#68 of 261 Old 02-27-2013, 09:07 PM
 
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"Really? You want to equate vaccines which are an invasive medical procedure that has the potential to cause harm, including death to indoor plumbing? Not really much to say there......"

 

Marnica - I appreciate that you took the time to read and consider my post.

You have misstated my point.

I said that vaccines and indoor plumbing are both lifesaving advances of the 20th century.

This is a fact, look it up if this was not part of your schooling.

You say that vaccines can cause harm, and I agree that in vanishingly rare circumstances that is true. 

You may argue that vaccines cause more than rare harm, but there is no mainstream double blinded placebo controlled study to back that statement.

That small harm is far outweighed by the benefits of vaccination.

In the case of plumbing, you only need to read about countries without indoor plumbing to realize the terrible harm and deaths from dehydration brought by cholera and other GI infections to realize that this is a logical parallel.

I could link some news reports here detailing the drowning deaths of toddlers in indoor toilets, though I am sure these are also rare.

That does not mean we should get rid of indoor plumbing because a few toddlers drown in the toilet.

Or would you?

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#69 of 261 Old 02-28-2013, 08:33 AM
 
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"Really? You want to equate vaccines which are an invasive medical procedure that has the potential to cause harm, including death to indoor plumbing? Not really much to say there......"

 

Marnica - I appreciate that you took the time to read and consider my post.

You have misstated my point.

I said that vaccines and indoor plumbing are both lifesaving advances of the 20th century.

This is a fact, look it up if this was not part of your schooling.

You say that vaccines can cause harm, and I agree that in vanishingly rare circumstances that is true. 

You may argue that vaccines cause more than rare harm, but there is no mainstream double blinded placebo controlled study to back that statement.

That small harm is far outweighed by the benefits of vaccination.

In the case of plumbing, you only need to read about countries without indoor plumbing to realize the terrible harm and deaths from dehydration brought by cholera and other GI infections to realize that this is a logical parallel.

I could link some news reports here detailing the drowning deaths of toddlers in indoor toilets, though I am sure these are also rare.

That does not mean we should get rid of indoor plumbing because a few toddlers drown in the toilet.

Or would you?

Hmmmm where to begin with your incredibly condescending post.....where do you think I was educated? Perhaps you think I didn't attend school at all? 

 

I agree with you that indoor plumbing has been lifesaving - never disputed this. I do not agree with you that vaccines should be given as much credit as they are given for reducing infectious disease. Actually I think sanitation should be given far more. Here is an interesting read if you ever have the time and motivation 

 

http://www.jstor.org/stable/3349539

 

I also don't agree with you about the prevalence of adverse reactions, but that is a whole other thread isn't it  - one that had been addressed in these forums multiple times over the years. I just don't have to time or energy right now for all that head banging

 

What I had an issue with was your statement about people that don't vaccinate and not using indoor plumbing. ridiculous statement imo.

 

I'm aware toddlers drown in toilets from time to time although I would be willing to give up everything I own to bet you that this happens FAR LESS than vaccines causing harm to a child. But I know you disagree so no point in continuing there. Of course I wouldn't get rid of indoor plumbing. Personally I use a lock on the lid winky.gif

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#70 of 261 Old 02-28-2013, 01:49 PM
 
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You may argue that vaccines cause more than rare harm, but there is no mainstream double blinded placebo controlled study to back that statement.

 

Since when do we only admit harm based on mainstream double blinded placebo controlled studies?  How many mainstream double blinded placebo controlled studies are there on toddler deaths from drowning in toilets?  NONE--but there are dozens of toilet-locking safety devices. 

 

That small harm is far outweighed by the benefits of vaccination.

 

If you don't know how many people are harmed by vaccines or to what extent, there is no possible valid conclusion that the benefits outweigh the harm.n You are making an assumption based on the marketing propaganda of the vaccine industry.

In the case of plumbing, you only need to read about countries without indoor plumbing to realize the terrible harm and deaths from dehydration brought by cholera and other GI infections to realize that this is a logical parallel.

I could link some news reports here detailing the drowning deaths of toddlers in indoor toilets, though I am sure these are also rare.

That does not mean we should get rid of indoor plumbing because a few toddlers drown in the toilet.

Or would you?

 

Your comment is both irrelevant and insulting.

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#71 of 261 Old 03-01-2013, 12:17 PM
 
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One of the most frustrating links I see is the link between pitocin/c sections and autism. Yes, we have a higher autism rate than compared to countries that don't do these things. We also have a lower infant mortality rate... If it weren't for these interventions, these babies would have died, possibly along with their mothers.

 

I just wanted to address this, because it's not true.  "We" (the US) have higher infant mortality rates than many countries that have lower pitocin and C/S rates.  The vast majority of countries with lower infant/maternal mortality rates than the US also have much lower birth intervention rates.  So, no, pitocin/C/S (while certainly helpful and/or lifesaving in plenty of cases) do not have a 1-to-1 correlation with lower infant/maternal mortality rates.  Aside from other confounding factors, there does seem to be a threshold above which rates of those interventions do more harm than good.  Otherwise Brazil* might have one of the world's lowest infant/maternal mortality rates.  And I do think definitively stating that "if it weren't for these interventions, these babies would have died, possibly along with their mothers," is, quite frankly, unfounded BS.  This is surely sometimes true, but not at all always.

 

I am pretty pro-vax, BTW, and also do not necessarily think there's any link between pitocin (and especially C/S) and autism-- but just wanted to address the above point, because it is highly inaccurate and easily disproved.

 

 

*~90% C/S rate in private hospitals, I believe approaching 50% overall.

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#72 of 261 Old 03-02-2013, 05:29 AM
 
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I haven't scrolled through all of the pages on this thread so I'm not sure if this topic has been raised, but I've done quite a bit of reading
about undiagnosed celiac disease presenting as autism in small children. This was the case with Jenny McCarthy's child (that woman is a lunatic and never admitted that she was wrong)....

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#73 of 261 Old 03-02-2013, 05:32 AM
 
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Carrefour, Haiti. The organization that I work with is Health Ministries for Haiti. It's a wonderful organization with dedicated volunteers.

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#74 of 261 Old 03-02-2013, 05:41 AM
 
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" You are making an assumption based on the marketing propaganda of the vaccine industry."
Um, no. The success of vaccines are not exemplified by marketing propaganda. We know that things like small pox and polio (almost there) have been eradicated thanks to vaccines. I only wish that some of the newer vaccines such as HPV would have been available when I was younger, it could have saved me from getting half of my cervix removed due to hpv virus I had (that I presume that my college bf gave me one of the times that he cheated on me).

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Oh, wow so that is what is up with the increase in autism??? It is all just really celiac? Well, geez I am sure glad someone figured that out. That will help parents of children with autism sleep better tonight for sure. duh.gif

 

Eta: i am well aware that gluten is *one* part of the puzzle for many children and that her son's recovery was greatly advanced by the removal of both gluten and casein from his diet.


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#76 of 261 Old 03-02-2013, 07:04 AM
 
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There are lots of potential causes or the rise in autism diagnosis. Certainly some of it is due to expanded diagnosis criteria and greater awareness and services. How much is due to that is debatable. Other issues like increasing maternal and paternal age, increased premature birth (and a better survival rate for premature babies), and yes maybe even prenatal exposure to some environmental factor play a role, too.
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#77 of 261 Old 03-02-2013, 09:47 AM
 
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If you were to assume that autism is a form of brain damage, it can have many causes. 

 

Brain damage can sometimes be caused by chemical exposure in utero, by vaccines, oxygen deprivation, or by undiagnosed food reactions among many other things.  Genetics could alter vulnerability.  Makes sense to me.

 

(I do have an autistic child, it does run in the family, and I do suspect that it is some sort of damage as well.)

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#78 of 261 Old 03-02-2013, 01:59 PM
 
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I didn't say that celiac is the CAUSE of "all this autism". I said that undiagnosed celiac may present similarly as autism. It is one possible explanation for the increase in symptoms (autism spectrum).

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And you know for certain this was the case with Ms. McCarthy's son? Are you his doctor?


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I didn't say that celiac is the CAUSE of "all this autism". I said that undiagnosed celiac may present similarly as autism. It is one possible explanation for the increase in symptoms (autism spectrum).

Autism is diagnosed by symptoms.  ANYTHING that presents with symptoms of autism is diagnosed as autism.

 

Funny--In the 1980's, parents who brought their autistic children to doctors for intestinal disorders were laughed out of the office by their doctors, who claimed that the children acted as though they were in pain because they were autistic, not because they actually had anything medically wrong with them.

 

Now we know that autistic children have a very high rate of celiac disease and other autoimmune disorders and intestinal disfunction's, all which may be triggered by vaccines.  Jenny Mccarthy--who is not a spokesperson for the autism community--shares with the public that her son's symptoms--which started as vaccine-induced seizures--were managed by treatment of his MEDICAL disorders, and you jump to the conclusion that autism is simply undiagnosed celiac and that she is an lunatic?

 

Perhaps you should do a bit more research before you internet-diagnose complete strangers.

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#81 of 261 Old 03-02-2013, 06:21 PM
 
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I'm a pediatric clinical nurse specialist. I'm well aware of the screening techniques and diagnostic criteria for ASDs. I'm not sure if that last comment was directed at me.

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Jenny McCarthy is a lunatic because she started a FRENZY of anti-vaccine propaganda and scared parents unnecessarily. It was ridiculous.

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#83 of 261 Old 03-02-2013, 06:25 PM
 
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I also NEVER said that "autism is caused by celiac disease". I simply said that there is research that indicates that SOME autism cases may be misdiagnosed, and celiac disease may be a possible cause. Perhaps you should reread what people say before you fly off the handle.

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#84 of 261 Old 03-02-2013, 06:32 PM
 
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Jenny McCarthy is a lunatic because she started a FRENZY of anti-vaccine propaganda and scared parents unnecessarily. It was ridiculous.

Wow, you give Jenny McCarthy a lot of credit.biglaugh.gif Is is so incredulous that intelligent, thinking parents choose not to vaccinate because they have spent hours researching the subject, and continue to research it on a daily basis. Jenny McCarthy had absolutely no influence on my decision whatsoever. 

 

You are new to posting on this board, and just so you know, I have yet to read anything in your posts which isn't same old vaccine propaganda that non-vaxing parents get all the time. I speaking for myself, I immune now thank goodness.

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#85 of 261 Old 03-02-2013, 06:54 PM
 
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I personally couldn't care less if you choose to vaccinate your children or not. That is your choice as a parent. I certainly am not trying to persuade anyone in any direction. My biggest issue is when people dem vaccines "toxic" but then feed their children toxic food, use plastic foodware, have furniture full of flame reardants, use toxic cleaning and personal care products (most women on this thread do not fall into that category).
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#86 of 261 Old 03-02-2013, 07:00 PM
 
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It's really inflammatory to call what someone has to say propaganda. Just putting that out there because it seems to come up a lot. Is it so unreasonable that people who choose to vaccinate have done many hours of research and continue to research?
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Does that go both ways Rachel? JN just used the same phrase to describe the anti-vax position.

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#88 of 261 Old 03-02-2013, 07:07 PM
 
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It's really inflammatory to call what someone has to say propaganda. Just putting that out there because it seems to come up a lot. Is it so unreasonable that people who choose to vaccinate have done many hours of research and continue to research?


It's also inflammatory to call people "conspiracy theorists" if they are skeptical. That term also comes up a lot around here.

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#89 of 261 Old 03-02-2013, 07:08 PM
 
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My biggest issue is when people dem vaccines "toxic" but then feed their children toxic food, use plastic foodware, have furniture full of flame reardants, use toxic cleaning and personal care products (most women on this thread do not fall into that category).

what about the people that don't have those things and don't do those things!?

 

it is so unfair to lump all together and certainly not at all true-insultiing 


 

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I personally couldn't care less if you choose to vaccinate your children or not. That is your choice as a parent. I certainly am not trying to persuade anyone in any direction. My biggest issue is when people dem vaccines "toxic" but then feed their children toxic food, use plastic foodware, have furniture full of flame reardants, use toxic cleaning and personal care products (most women on this thread do not fall into that category).

Some people have to choose their battles & choose what they can eliminate (like vaccines), use less of (like plastic foodware) and not use at all (like toxic cleaning & personal care products).  I do not know how to nor would I likely have the money to purchase all things that fall into the categories you have mentioned, especially the "furniture full of flame retardants."  I've gotten around that by getting 2nd hand stuff & just going w/o.  But, you never know someone's full story so IMO to have an issue w/ someone no matter what they do (since the only person *you* can control is *yourself*), seems like a waste of energy to me.

 

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