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-   -   I'm not anti-vax, I'm pro-research! (http://www.mothering.com/forum/47-vaccinations/1374974-i-m-not-anti-vax-i-m-pro-research.html)

eeem 02-20-2013 08:18 AM

This is a great blog, from moms (and dads) who have done their research.

 

http://thinkingmomsrevolution.com/how-i-gave-my-son-autism/


Mirzam 02-20-2013 08:29 AM

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Originally Posted by eeem View Post

This is a great blog, from moms (and dads) who have done their research.

 

http://thinkingmomsrevolution.com/how-i-gave-my-son-autism/

I just read this blog also, and thought it was excellent. It demonstrates how autism is caused by multi-factors, with vaccination being one. 


prosciencemum 02-20-2013 09:00 AM

I think it's tragic that mothers are beating themselves up thinking their children's autism was preventable when all the research suggests it's just the way they are. That's what I think.  

 

And I really dislike the "thinking moms revolution" blog which claims to be about research but actually isn't in my opinion.


Mirzam 02-20-2013 09:28 AM

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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

I think it's tragic that mothers are beating themselves up thinking their children's autism was preventable when all the research suggests it's just the way they are. That's what I think.  

 

And I really dislike the "thinking moms revolution" blog which claims to be about research but actually isn't in my opinion.

 

I dislike how people dismiss parents that they know that their child's autism was indeed preventable and they have spent thousands of hours researching the subject in order to help their children. How can it possibly be "just the way they are" when 1 in 88 12 year olds are on the spectrum when 30 years ago it was 1 in 10,000. Oh, I know, better diagnosis (not). We are facing a generation of young people who will need care into adulthood, it is a huge tragedy.


serenbat 02-20-2013 11:13 AM

Quote:
I think it's tragic that mothers are beating themselves up thinking their children's autism was preventable when all the research suggests it's just the way they are. That's what I think.  

I think this is just absurd!  You must know something the rest of us don't know- what is the real cause?

 

Last I checked we (including Dr.s) don't know the real cause, yet they do know the numbers are clearly up and it's not just better understanding going on!!

 

 

In a society that can't find fault with basically anything, of course nothing a parent allows can be a cause, can it? We hold parents, dr.s, medical community (including vacs & drugs) at a no fault for most every ill- with very few exceptions. For example, we do say (only sometimes) that alcohol during pregnancy can have a negative effect but we really can't add too much more- we are a blameless society as a whole. Life is so much easier if you can't look within.


Rrrrrachel 02-20-2013 11:34 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

I think it's tragic that mothers are beating themselves up thinking their children's autism was preventable when all the research suggests it's just the way they are. That's what I think.  

And I really dislike the "thinking moms revolution" blog which claims to be about research but actually isn't in my opinion.

I whole heartedly agree. I don't think the rest of this is worth comment.

Marnica 02-20-2013 11:45 AM

ROTFLMAO.gifI just think it's funny...... responses are totally predictable as usual. 


Mirzam 02-20-2013 11:48 AM

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Originally Posted by Marnica View Post

ROTFLMAO.gifI just think it's funny...... responses are totally predictable as usual. 

Yes they are. 


fruitfulmomma 02-20-2013 11:58 AM

Quote:
I think it's tragic that mothers are beating themselves up thinking their children's autism was preventable when all the research suggests it's just the way they are.

 

oh, I thought that the newest research showed that having the flu while pregnant was one possible cause and therefore momma needs her flu shot? eyesroll.gif


Rrrrrachel 02-20-2013 12:02 PM

That's extremely preliminary research. I do think mothers should get a flu shot, but not to prevent autism.

I personally think autism starts in utero and is primarily genetic. I do think its possible that moms can do things while pregnant that can trigger autism, but with so little research on what those things are, if anything, all we can do is the best we can. NONE of us are perfect. I think it's a tragedy when a mother blames herself and feels guilt for the rest of her life over something like this.

Dakotacakes 02-20-2013 12:14 PM

When I see titles like this I cringe.  The insinuation being of course that if you vaccinate you clearly didn't research.  When in reality, with blogs like these the research they are doing is all research within an echo-chamber.  They are automatically discounting things from the CDC the WHO and medical journals because their "research" says otherwise.  And discussing the hours spent researching something doesn't really tell me anything unless I know the sources.  If you spend 500 hours research vaccines on mercola or whale of course you are going to come up with not vaccinating.  But I wouldn't say you have researched the issue either.

 

Too often, individuals are starting from a perspective and then proclaiming to have researched it and that is why they have the perspective.  When in reality the only research they have done is in an echo chamber.

 

I see danger in so many people becoming cemented in the idea that vaccines are causing autism and then researching that aspect.  because time spent on that is time not spent trying to find other causes and is shortchanging the autism epidemic.  REcently they held congressional hearings on autism, at first i was optimistic, but in reality it wasn't congressional hearings on autism at all, all they looked at was vaccination.


Mirzam 02-20-2013 12:31 PM

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Originally Posted by Dakotacakes View Post

When I see titles like this I cringe.  The insinuation being of course that if you vaccinate you clearly didn't research.  When in reality, with blogs like these the research they are doing is all research within an echo-chamber.  They are automatically discounting things from the CDC the WHO and medical journals because their "research" says otherwise.  And discussing the hours spent researching something doesn't really tell me anything unless I know the sources.  If you spend 500 hours research vaccines on mercola or whale of course you are going to come up with not vaccinating.  But I wouldn't say you have researched the issue either.

 

Too often, individuals are starting from a perspective and then proclaiming to have researched it and that is why they have the perspective.  When in reality the only research they have done is in an echo chamber.

 

I see danger in so many people becoming cemented in the idea that vaccines are causing autism and then researching that aspect.  because time spent on that is time not spent trying to find other causes and is shortchanging the autism epidemic.  REcently they held congressional hearings on autism, at first i was optimistic, but in reality it wasn't congressional hearings on autism at all, all they looked at was vaccination.

 

Actually they didn't just discuss vaccines, Dennis Kucinich mentioned polution from coal fired plants, but it was only a small part of the hearing. Vaccination is autism's elephant in the living room, so it is not surprising that this was the main focus of the hearing. However, if you read the article linked in the OP, you will see that the author mentions other factors such as ultrasounds, HFCS, pain killers during pregnancy, Pitocin, C-sec, antibiotics, acetaminophen and fluoride which combined with vaccines led her son's autism. 

 

There actually isn't any research being done on vaccines and autism, one of the resasons being they have dismissed it. Most of the reserach as far as I know is looking at genetics, which so far has yeilded bupkiss. Also, there is no way pharma of the goverment are going to fund a vaccinated vs unvaccinated study when the outcome could be extremely difficult for them.


Rrrrrachel 02-20-2013 12:33 PM

There has been loads of research on various components of vaccines and autism.

Mirzam 02-20-2013 12:34 PM

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And pretty much all of it was junk.


Rrrrrachel 02-20-2013 12:36 PM

And I'm not sure what you mean by bupkis in terms of genetics and autism. It's true they haven't found the actual genetic component yet, but there has absolutely been promising research and discoveries in that area.

Dakotacakes 02-20-2013 12:55 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post

 

Actually they didn't just discuss vaccines, Dennis Kucinich mentioned polution from coal fired plants, but it was only a small part of the hearing. Vaccination is autism's elephant in the living room, so it is not surprising that this was the main focus of the hearing. However, if you read the article linked in the OP, you will see that the author mentions other factors such as ultrasounds, HFCS, pain killers during pregnancy, Pitocin, C-sec, antibiotics, acetaminophen and fluoride which combined with vaccines led her son's autism. 

 

There actually isn't any research being done on vaccines and autism, one of the resasons being they have dismissed it. Most of the reserach as far as I know is looking at genetics, which so far has yeilded bubkiss. Also, there is no way pharma of the goverment are going to fund a vaccinated vs unvaccinated study when the outcome could be extremely difficult for them.

 

I did read the entire blog post.  None of it is actually based on research however, it is google search "links" that are from as well.  This is what I am talking about.  What research is present about this blog post?  I can't find anything regarding actual research that indicates any of those things are related to autism.  Here is the research she links to in the post:

 

Ultrasound- this resesarch came from ICPA which appears to be a Chiropractic Trade organization. 

 

Coke/high fructose corn syrup- this lead me to facebook and a warning message about the facebook page I was opening so I didn't open it.  I don't consider facebook postings research either.

 

Lortab- there is no research she presents about this just her intuition

 

Pitocin- this went back to the same article from ICPA again I beleive a trade organization for Chiropractic not an autism research organization.

 

Antibiotics/Augmentin.  This is my favorite.  The actual link takes you to PRWEB which is a website to bring PR to your cause.  IT is a press release for an article "published" in Medical hypotheses journal in 2005 linking augmentin to autism.  The problem is that until 2010 medical hypotheses was an elsevier journal whose goal was "to publish unconventional ideas without the filter of peer review" the editor just decided what to publish.  In 2010 they were given a new editor and began peer review after some articles denying the link between HIV and AIDS. 

 

Vaccines- this lead me to a blog entitled adventures in autism

 

Acetimenophen lead me to the Ultimate Autism guide which had no sourcing or citing for the claims.

 

Flouride- I am actually not going to touch this one, the links I got didn't discuss autism but more just rants about flouridation of water in general.

 

Reading blogs, and pseudoscience journals that promote aids denialism, and Trade organizations for Chiropractic may be beneficial, but I don't consider conclusions drawn from those sources to be well researched.  It appears this individual is "anti-vaccine" amont some other anti's and has set off to "research" that position within an echochamber of like minded individuals.


serenbat 02-20-2013 12:56 PM

Quote:
I think it's a tragedy when a mother blames herself and feels guilt for the rest of her life over something like this.

so in your mind because we don't know a cause, it's no one's fault? is this correct?

 

as in, if it is genetic and you pass it on, you are not at fault - is this also correct?

 

 

 

unlike the thalidomide babies, if it was more obvious I'm sure there would be more outcry, by thalidomide did take years to get off the market


Mirzam 02-20-2013 12:59 PM

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Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post
 
And I'm not sure what you mean by bupkis in terms of genetics and autism. It's true they haven't found the actual genetic component yet, but there has absolutely been promising research and discoveries in that area.

Right there is no autism gene. 

 

As for the non science looking into genetics, the identical twin studes show autism has an environmental, ie external cause. To demonstrate autism has a soley genetic [internal] cause, it must be shown that autism occurs where no environmental causes apply, and that has never been done. Like most other human medical conditions, autism is caused by environmental factors. Some are more susceptible than others, as is the case with every condition.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Mirzam 02-20-2013 01:02 PM

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Finally, which I forgot to add, there is no such thing as a genetic epidemic and we have an epidemic of autism. 


Rrrrrachel 02-20-2013 01:10 PM

Serenbat it's correct that I don't think it's anyone's fault when a child gets autism, and I think it's thoroughly pointless to frame it in those terms to begin with.

beckybird 02-20-2013 03:38 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakotacakes View Post

Flouride- I am actually not going to touch this one, the links I got didn't discuss autism but more just rants about flouridation of water in general.

 

You might want to rethink your position and "touch" this subject.

 

Fluoridated water!

 

Brought to you by the same safe DDT science!!

Safe in 1950, safe today!

 

Sorry for the derail, but fluoridated water was brought up, and was in the OP article. I just wanted to add my opinion!


Dakotacakes 02-20-2013 04:23 PM

Like I said, not anything about autism and flouride research. I don't see a reason to touch the citation when it has nothing to do with the topic matter. I only watched a few minutes of the video but it also doesn't seem to be about autism and flouride.

Mirzam 02-20-2013 04:37 PM

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It is not about isolating one particular environmental toxin as a cause of autism, it is about the full on assult of our children by many different potentially harmful substances. Fluoride is one of the most toxic people are exposed to. The science promoting the fluoradation of water is so weak to say the least and it is avoidable, less so for low income families unfortunately. 

 

 

 

Quote:
The animal studies have also documented considerable evidence of direct toxic effects of fluoride on brain tissue, even at levels as low as 1 ppm fluoride in water (Varner 1998). These effects include:

  • reduction in nicotinic acetylcholine receptors
  • reduction in lipid content
  • impaired antioxidant defense systems
  • damage to the hippocampus
  • damage to the purkinje cells
  • increased uptake of aluminum
  • formation of beta-amyloid plaques (the classic brain abnormality in Alzheimer's disease)
  • exacerbation of lesions induced by iodine deficiency
  • accumulation of fluoride in the pineal gland

http://www.healthinducedautism.com/fluoride-facts.html


cbwilke 02-24-2013 12:13 PM

I can't imagine the pain of having a child with autism.

At this point science and medicine have not discovered what causes autism.

I think that saying we don't know is better than guessing or buying junk science.

Vaccines are vital, one of the most lifesaving inventions of the 20th century (with indoor plumbing/sanitation).

I doubt that anyone who refuses vaccines would also refuse indoor plumbing (although I could probably mock up a study linking it's use to the rise in autism diagnosis)

I will be surprised if a genetic cause is not eventually found.

Finding the gene will not help anyway, unless people are willing to gene test and abort kids with autism (which I imagine tragically many would given the stats for prenatally diagnosed Down syndrome).

Keep in mind that many kids with autism were simply labeled "retarded" in the past, and placed in institutions.

Long before that, kids with disabilities were left out to die of exposure.

Perhaps as as society we should view the increase in people with autism as a victory over the relative ignorance and barbarism of the past.


rainbownurse 02-24-2013 09:34 PM

What I find most interesting about the blogs/articles/studies done is the "links" they find. My stats professor was found of saying "correlation does not equal causation" . 

One of the most frustrating links I see is the link between pitocin/c sections and autism. Yes, we have a higher autism rate than compared to countries that don't do these things. We also have a lower infant mortality rate. And a higher birth rate in general. If it weren't for these interventions, these babies would have died, possibly along with their mothers. 

I also agree with the people saying that it is hard to find unbiased research. I've actually found it near impossible. I'm not even sure where I stand on the vaccine issue. 

It must be very hard to have a child with a condition that nobody can explain, and has no real "cause", just a variety of things that may or may not have an impact. I would imagine I would search endlessly for an answer. 


kotapop 02-25-2013 11:11 AM

While I can see why the comment "just the way they are" is inciting a riot here (and I strongly disagree with that statement), I think the poster was trying to point out how wrong it is for mothers to blame themselves for causing their children's autism or similar issues. If we want to blame someone, it should be the people producing these environmental hazards when they knowingly try to hide research showing they are a danger to our health. Also while I applaud the public awareness this blogger is bringing to these environmental hazards, I don't think it is sufficiently conclusive research (I could not find any links to peer-reviewed articles in the articles she linked to, though I couldn't get some of them to work) to determine that these factors are the cause of autism, though they do merit looking into. I worry that other mothers of children with developmental disabilities would read something like this and start blaming themselves, particularly during the emotionally fraught time when you first receive that diagnosis.


JNajla 02-25-2013 02:46 PM

I do NOT agree with this article.  I do believe that autism may be caused by chromosomal anomalies and environmental toxins, but I completely disagree about vaccines being a cause.  As a public health professional, and pediatric nurse practitioner who sees cases of vaccine preventable diseases (and even fatalities), it scares me that so many people are choosing to not vaccinate.  It is a choice that every parent needs to make, but they also need to be aware of risks.  There are longitudinal studies being conducted (and still ongoing) that have shown that control groups of unvaccinated children have similar rates than vaccinated children. 


Taximom5 02-25-2013 03:05 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by rainbownurse View Post

I would imagine I would search endlessly for an answer. 

So what would you do if you found research that firmly linked autism with vaccines? Or Tylenol?  Or age of fathers?  Or proximity to highways?

The first two actually have quite a few studies showing a link.  No, it doesn't prove that those two are linked with every case, nor does the research prove that only those causes and no other causes were involved in the cases where they are linked.  But the science shows a link.

 

Meanwhile, the pharmaceutical industry is paying everyone they can to discredit the links there, and instead emphasize, yes, the age of fathers and the proximity of highways.

 

If a father says, "OMG, I started my family too late, and my son is now autistic," the pediatrician would no doubt pat him comfortingly on the back, and say, "there, there, you had no way of knowing that this would increase the risk of autism." 

But a mother says, "I allowed my at-risk child to be given vaccines, and his reactions and subsequent medical events are textbook cases of severe reaction (and she qoutes peer-reviewed research corroborating this), and they resulted in seizures and brain damage, including autism, and I'm actually going to take responsibility (since the pharma/medical industry refuses) and say that it's MY fault because I didn't research the invasive procedure that caused these reactions," and people say that she's desperately grasping at straws.  Funny, nobody says that about older fathers.  Or they say that criticizing vaccines is tantamount to criticizing and refusing indoor plumbing.  Funny, the US Department of Health and Human Services has admitted thousands of cases of vaccine-induced severe brain damage, including autism.  They've even admitted 2 cases of vaccine-caused autism just this year, but I can't find any reference to autism caused by indoor plumbing...

 

Nobody is admitting the huge white elephant in the room: vaccines can cause brain damage and other severe health problems in susceptible children.  Enough parents have reported this so that we know it's not vanishingly rare, but the pharmaceutical industry is going to great lengths to discredit such reports.  (Hey, anybody remember that they also did this with Lipitor and Vioxx??)  All kinds of well-meaning people are picking up the propaganda and repeating it, "Oh, it must be very difficult to have a child with autism; the poor mother must be desperately grasping at straws and blaming herself, but of course it's genetic..."

 

Bull-poop.

 

IF IT WERE GENETIC, THEY'D HAVE FOUND IT BY NOW.

 

We have only a vague idea which children may be susceptible (children with autistic relatives, children with a family history of autoimmune disorder, children with vitamin deficiencies, children with underlying mitochondrial disorders), and to make matters worse, there is NO screening for such susceptibilities, and no effeort whatsoever to head off reactions in such children, except by a few brave doctors who suggest a modified, delayed vaccine schedule and then are vilified for it.


Rrrrrachel 02-25-2013 03:39 PM

Very loose interpretation of "studies"

Rrrrrachel 02-25-2013 03:41 PM

And they have made some progress on finding the genetic component of autism. It's not a simple thing, though, and it takes time.

http://healthland.time.com/2013/01/15/new-gene-variants-linked-to-autism/

The fact that a sibling of a child with autism is 20 times more likely to have autism, as well as the difference in livelihoods for fraternal and identical twins, points pretty conclusively that at least some of the reason is genetic.


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