Vitamin K vaccine. - Mothering Forums
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Vaccinations > Vitamin K vaccine.
alaskanmomma's Avatar alaskanmomma 11:41 PM 02-26-2013

My husband and I have decided, after much research, to not vaccinate our newest arrival and to stop vaccinating our oldest two(they have been fully vaccinated minus the "pediatrician optionals" like flu, chicken pox, Gardisil) BUT, I'm really torn on vaxing or not for Vit K with our newest addition. Any reputable information would be greatly appreciated :)



Jennyanydots's Avatar Jennyanydots 12:16 AM 02-27-2013
The vit k shot is different from a vaccine, but I know what you mean. there is an awesome recent thread in one of the DDCs about it, here's a link: http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1373674/what-are-your-vitamin-k-plans/30#post_17266545

I enjoyed reading what these ladies had to say about the subject, and found it very informative.
alaskanmomma's Avatar alaskanmomma 01:20 AM 02-27-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennyanydots View Post

The vit k shot is different from a vaccine, but I know what you mean. there is an awesome recent thread in one of the DDCs about it, here's a link: http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1373674/what-are-your-vitamin-k-plans/30#post_17266545

I enjoyed reading what these ladies had to say about the subject, and found it very informative.

Ah, thank you! I didn't know it wasn't a vaccine :)!

That thread is really eye-opening. I'm definitely leaning more towards getting the shot, but I'm still so torn *sigh*. 


Jennyanydots's Avatar Jennyanydots 01:26 AM 02-27-2013
I know, it's a tough call. With my DS we did the "wait and see" thing at birth. He came out with a lot of bruising, so we opted for it, but had he not we likely would've declined. Good luck deciding smile.gif
Marnica's Avatar Marnica 07:54 AM 02-27-2013

Got it for my son because he was a c section and they attempted vaccuum extraction.  Even given this I regret it. He had terrible problems with jaundice. My daughter was  vbac. We did not get it. I chose to do oral vitamin K which is standard in several European countries. I found it very interesting that she was not jaundiced at all. 


Mirzam's Avatar Mirzam 08:26 AM 02-27-2013

Great info from Hilary Butler on Vit K

 

 

 

Quote:

The medical profession [however,] has this strange idea that the very thin blood which babies naturally have in the first 7 days, must be "abnormal" because it's not like adult blood, so they give vitamin K at birth. 

 

Baby's blood thickened with vitamin K, causes a situation where stem cells have to move through sludge, not nicely greased blood vessels full of blood which can allow stem cells easy acess to anywhere. Maybe one day it will dawn on the medical profession that not only are cord blood stem cells important and useful to the newborn baby, but that stem cells need thin blood for a reason.

http://beyondconformity.co.nz/_blog/Hilary's_Desk/post/Breastmilk_stem_cells/

 

Of course this lead to the discussion of premature clamping of the cord......


Mirzam's Avatar Mirzam 08:28 AM 02-27-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marnica View Post

Got it for my son because he was a c section and they attempted vaccuum extraction.  Even given this I regret it. He had terrible problems with jaundice. My daughter was  vbac. We did not get it. I chose to do oral vitamin K which is standard in several European countries. I found it very interesting that she was not jaundiced at all. 

 

Marnica, my c-sec baby who got Vit K and Hep B at birth also was very jaundiced. The other two, who got neither, weren't.


nia82 07:55 AM 02-28-2013

Vitamin K as injection was odd to me as back home oral drops are the norm. My sister wrote me a RX for Konakion  but I never filled it (Konakion is the brand name of the drops in Germany, made by Roche), instead I ordered my own drops here in the US (I was too worried they'd take away my drops because they are not FDA approved at the airport). I ordered from birthwithlove.com. They have no preservatives or anything artificial. Taste and odorless. I put a drop on my nipple after birth. The German concept is another drop at 6 days and 6 weeks. In the past few years a new protocol emerged in the Netherlands, which is one drop at birth and then one drop weekly until 6 weeks.

DS was jaundiced, but he was born at 36+6 and my cord stopped pulsing within 60 minutes of birth and then 60 seconds later the placenta was just there, I *feel* he would have greatly benefited from a longer pulsating cord. He wasn't too badly jaundiced, we could go home and just breastfeed in the sun. DD had the oral drops too, but her cord pulsated for a good 6-8 minutes. She wasn't jaundiced at all.

 

When deciding about vitamin K, also look into the antibiotic ointment routinely administered at birth in the US. We declined it each time. It's about STDs. Again, this is not routine back home so I started asking questions (it is offered to all parents with an explanation what it does).


Marnica's Avatar Marnica 01:31 PM 02-28-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by nia82 View Post

Vitamin K as injection was odd to me as back home oral drops are the norm. My sister wrote me a RX for Konakion  but I never filled it (Konakion is the brand name of the drops in Germany, made by Roche), instead I ordered my own drops here in the US (I was too worried they'd take away my drops because they are not FDA approved at the airport). I ordered from birthwithlove.com. They have no preservatives or anything artificial. Taste and odorless. I put a drop on my nipple after birth. The German concept is another drop at 6 days and 6 weeks. In the past few years a new protocol emerged in the Netherlands, which is one drop at birth and then one drop weekly until 6 weeks.

DS was jaundiced, but he was born at 36+6 and my cord stopped pulsing within 60 minutes of birth and then 60 seconds later the placenta was just there, I *feel* he would have greatly benefited from a longer pulsating cord. He wasn't too badly jaundiced, we could go home and just breastfeed in the sun. DD had the oral drops too, but her cord pulsated for a good 6-8 minutes. She wasn't jaundiced at all.

 

When deciding about vitamin K, also look into the antibiotic ointment routinely administered at birth in the US. We declined it each time. It's about STDs. Again, this is not routine back home so I started asking questions (it is offered to all parents with an explanation what it does).

yup this is what I did with DD. 


prosciencemum's Avatar prosciencemum 01:57 PM 02-28-2013
I like this discussion of the whys and how's of vitamin k for newborns.

In the UK you can request either the injection or oral vitamin k.

Personally, while the effects of vitamin k deficiency are rare, they're so serious I wouldn't mess around with it.
Rrrrrachel's Avatar Rrrrrachel 07:31 PM 02-28-2013
My daughter got it because the birth center where she was born had really strong opinions about it due to losing a baby previously. Next time I think I'll talk to the, about oral vit k and see what they say about it.

We don't have any problems, though.
prosciencemum's Avatar prosciencemum 03:00 AM 03-01-2013

Second post down on this thread: http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1370747/a-story-of-tetanus-in-an-unvaccinated-child has a link I posted to a horrible story about the effects of vitamin K deficiency in a child in Australia. This is rare, but there is no way to predict who it will affect. 


nia82 07:48 AM 03-01-2013

I did not read that link as I have trouble opening that format. Did they do no vitamin K or oral drops?

 

I read a AAP position paper years back that states the only reason the injection is favored is because they think parents won't come back to the office for the following doses of oral drops or think they are plainly too stupid (sorry for the word, but that's what it basically said in more flowery words) to administer a drop 3 times. I can assure you babies aren't dying left and right in Europe from brain bleeds because of the oral drops. But I personally wouldn't trust anything the AAP says anyways after their atrocious statement about RIC (which is in utter contrast with the oath they swore imho).


prosciencemum's Avatar prosciencemum 03:30 AM 03-04-2013

Huh, that's strange - it's a pdf which I thought most computers could handle. 

 

Here's the direct link: http://www.courts.qld.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/169659/cif-baby-20121203.pdf

 

There's no mention of Oral Vitamin K, just that the injection was declined. Do any Australian mothers posting here know if Oral Vitamin K is available in Australia? 

 

The baby died at 33 days old, and the verdict by the coroner on the death was that it was caused by Vitamin K deficiency bleeding. 

 

Please note this is very rare (especially recently given that most babies get vitamin K supplements at birth). I found a number to put to that at the below link

 

 

Quote:
Incidence of VKDB reported varies from 1.5% to 0.001%

 

http://newborns.stanford.edu/VitaminK.html


nia82 07:57 AM 03-04-2013

No my PC refused to open that specific pdf. Something about viruses... (Still cursing hubbie for insisting on this horrible Windows 8 - it's been doing stuff like that grrr)

 

Since they don't mention it, it is quite certain the child didn't get oral vitamin K. It would have been stated I'm sure as it would have medical significance.


IdentityCrisisMama's Avatar IdentityCrisisMama 05:29 AM 03-05-2013

What I remember deciding was that I would wait and see what the birth was like and then if it was traumatic I would have opted for injected Vit K (not oral).  I also upped my Vit K during pregnancy. 

 

Interestingly, around the time that I was researching all of this my oldest was in a phase of getting frequent nose bleeds. She now takes a hand full of alfalfa at the first sign of a nose bleed and it's been working wonders!  


ma2two's Avatar ma2two 09:49 PM 03-05-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post

Great info from Hilary Butler on Vit K

 

 

 

http://beyondconformity.co.nz/_blog/Hilary's_Desk/post/Breastmilk_stem_cells/

 

Of course this lead to the discussion of premature clamping of the cord......

 

I always knew there must be a good reason why ALL babies were born with less vitamin K in the blood. So even if I hadn't heard of the jaundice and leukemia connection, I would have been very reluctant to allow it. And now that I've read an explanation of the (possible) reason, I'm even more glad I didn't allow it for my babies (shot or oral).


alaskanmomma's Avatar alaskanmomma 11:07 PM 03-05-2013
I am more comfortable with oral vs. injection, my midwife is going to look into getting the oral vit k for us smile.gif
Marnica's Avatar Marnica 09:27 AM 03-07-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by alaskanmomma View Post

I am more comfortable with oral vs. injection, my midwife is going to look into getting the oral vit k for us smile.gif

you can also get it yourself if you need to :)


Jennifer Harris's Avatar Jennifer Harris 03:12 PM 03-07-2013

I would opt out of the vitamin k shot. It is 100 times more than normal vitamin k levels. Their manufacture insert states jaundice and death are possible side effects. if you are worried you can give an oral vitamin k which is natural. www.birthfromlove.com 


nia82 09:12 PM 03-07-2013

That's what I used with both kids. Birthwithlove.com


ma2two's Avatar ma2two 09:18 PM 03-07-2013

The oral vitamin K is better because it has a much lower amount than the shot. But it is still causes the newborn to have more vitamin K in the blood than nature intended.


prosciencemum's Avatar prosciencemum 12:37 PM 03-08-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by ma2two View Post

The oral vitamin K is better because it has a much lower amount than the shot. But it is still causes the newborn to have more vitamin K in the blood than nature intended.

I'm curious. In your view does nature intend the children who die as newborns due to vitamin k deficiency bleeding to die? Does that mean you think we shouldn't try (as a society) to prevent that, even if it is very rare?
Marnica's Avatar Marnica 01:14 PM 03-08-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post


I'm curious. In your view does nature intend the children who die as newborns due to vitamin k deficiency bleeding to die? Does that mean you think we shouldn't try (as a society) to prevent that, even if it is very rare?

Once again- the one size fits all approach to this very rare problem is not the answer. 

 

There is a natural safer alternative in oral vit k and I think infants with certain risk factors should be the ones targeted for Vitamin K - not every single infant. 


Rrrrrachel's Avatar Rrrrrachel 01:18 PM 03-08-2013
What are the risk factors?
Marnica's Avatar Marnica 01:48 PM 03-08-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

What are the risk factors?

When discussing with my midwives I was told that the following were risk factors:

being a preemie, low birth weight, a forceps or vacuum extraction delivery, mom's use of antibiotics, anticoagulants, anticonvulsants, and some other medications during pregnancy, undetected liver disease, extremely fast, or extremely prolonged labor, particularly during the pushing phase, and delivery by c section. 


IdentityCrisisMama's Avatar IdentityCrisisMama 02:51 PM 03-08-2013

I remember being concerned with having my child consume vit K orally because I was worried in terms of her digestive system and etc. Still, that was 12 years ago that I was looking into this and the just a brief check again with my last birth. 


ma2two's Avatar ma2two 10:03 PM 03-08-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

Does that mean you think we shouldn't try (as a society) to prevent that, even if it is very rare?

 

I chose to not interfere with the way my babies' bodies were meant to work, for fear of the extremely small risk of hemorrhagic disease. If the risk was significantly increased by individual risk factors, I would have reconsidered. I do not think vitamin K should be given to every newborn. And if you read this article, which was posted earlier in the thread, http://beyondconformity.co.nz/_blog/Hilary's_Desk/post/Breastmilk_stem_cells/ perhaps universal delayed cord clamping would significantly decrease the incidence of hemorrhagic disease. My babies had the benefit of delayed cord clamping.


Rrrrrachel's Avatar Rrrrrachel 06:11 AM 03-09-2013
I thought this was a really common sense look at vit k.

http://www.nct.org.uk/parenting/vitamin-k#are%20some%20babies%20at%20higher%20risk
nia82 08:42 AM 03-09-2013

I find the Dutch protocol so common sense and low risk honestly... That's why we picked it. DS was one day before 37 weeks, 24+ hours of labor, 2.5h of pushing (he wasn't anterior) with bruised face (cause his hand was in front of it). Nobody gave us troubles for the oral stuff in CA. In fact, the nurses found it much better and the on call ped (older guy) was delighted parents were educated about stuff (they were overall awesome - asked us where to buy it, what they do back home in Germany, how eye ointment is totally optional there and not routinely given, they high fived us up and down for not circing and knowing intact care). I did take extra vitamin K (I forget which brand, but I researched it and talked to the midwives about it) to boost my colostrum levels. I think that's a prudent idea.

But offering as a blanket recommendation vitamin K shots with no oral alternatives is not good healthcare. I don't want to lowest common denominator (which is what most of US healthcare is based on: expect the dumbest possible patient that is utterly unreliable and irresponsible and lies like Pinocchio). Having all options available and properly explained is good healthcare and true informed consent. :)

 

(and don't get me started on eye ointments for all newborns.... Ludacris).


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