Parents' levels of immunity vs. their DCs' - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 28 Old 03-04-2013, 06:50 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I was reading a thread in the INV forum and just had this thought that I wanted to share.

I've been slightly uncomfortable with the fact that my DCs are not vaccinated, especially lately as family members have been making comments and discussions about immunizations have occurred and my kids are the only ones unvaccinated - which really makes me question myself, because I haven't done the research yet to back myself up.

In any case, I just had this moment of, wth. Why am I expected to vaccinate my kids? Are ANY of these adults that I'm having conversations with IRL aware of their levels of immunity for each of these VADs or know of which vaccines they've had? I wonder how many people who are vaccinating their DCs know of their own status. And for those who don't know - IRL, I would bet that would be almost everyone that I know, what IS the reason that they are vaccinating their DCs?

I'd assume they do it with hopes of avoiding the disease, some may do it to with the idea in mind that they're helping to keep these diseases from spreading.. so of it is SO important for their kids to be vaccinated, why aren't adults making sure they're up to date as well?

What about you? If you're vaccinating your DCs, do you know your own vax status? Are you getting all the shots to catch up?

I have no idea what immunity I have to these VADs, though I was vaccinated on schedule as a child. Why the heck am I even worried about my kids not being vaccinated when I have no idea of my own levels of immunity.
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#2 of 28 Old 03-04-2013, 07:04 PM
 
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I am up to date on vaccines.  My daughter is as well and will continue to be, with the possible exception of Gardasil.
 


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#3 of 28 Old 03-04-2013, 07:29 PM
 
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I am up to date, but I haven't run titers or anything. In terms of spreading disease, there are several studies that show vaccinating children makes a difference in infection rates of all ages, regardless of the vaccine status of adults. So is not for nothing that there's so much focus on vaccinating kids.
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#4 of 28 Old 03-05-2013, 03:17 AM
 
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I had to check all of this when I got a visa to move to the US and again when I got a Greencard. American's really like to check this stuff it seems (PS. my husband did the inverse of this when we moved to the UK, and I don't recall any medical information being part of that). 


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#5 of 28 Old 03-05-2013, 04:24 AM
 
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We (DH & I) are not up-to-date, nor is our DS (completely free) and only one person we know that is up-to-date - a child and this child is the most sickly child we have ever known. All family, all friends, co-workers, etc are not.

 

I have posted this prior- cost is a huge factor (with adults) - most are not covered by their insurance, have auto-immune issues, cancer, prior reactions, etc, or are elderly and Medicare only will pay for 3 vacs - the children we know are also (with only one exception) also not fully vaced, having had reactions, or never had any. 

 

The more I speak about it (IRL) the more I learn of ones that are not vacing. I am finding that more and more know of children that have had reactions and adults that have spoken about medical conditions and their choices not to vac themselves or their children- no longer odd anymore. Some even work in daycare and are teachers, even a few in the medical fields. It no longer is a closet issue, more and more people are talking about it.

 

I know only one that got a flu vaccine this year (that one child is the only one- parents didn't-he's always sick so it's hard to tell if he had flu or not) and I know no one that got the flu either.

 

In my area they only run free flu clinics and not for others. We actually make the flu vaccine in my area and I know people who have worked at the facility and they don't even vac.


 

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#6 of 28 Old 03-05-2013, 04:24 AM
 
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I imagine (hope) that most of the people who would villainize parents and children who are not vaccinated on the grounds that it makes society less protected would be up to date on vaccines for the entire family.

 

I'm not one of those people so I know you aren't talking to me but I've looked into my own status recently. I know the pertussis issue is hotly debated but it's one that I decided to get it for myself before I got it for my child. I suppose when/if I get her MMR I will look again into my titers. 


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#7 of 28 Old 03-05-2013, 06:17 AM
 
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I don't think it's right to villainize people on either side of the issue, but I have to say the old chestnut of "all the vaccinated kids I know are so sickly" is really tiresome. I don't think it's any more accurate or worthwhile an opinion than blaming all disease outbreaks on unvaccinated children.

The vast majority of kids are vaccinated on schedule or reasonably close to it (or at the very least caught up by school age).
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#8 of 28 Old 03-05-2013, 06:43 AM
 
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Did the OP allude to that?

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#9 of 28 Old 03-05-2013, 06:44 AM
 
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Oh, I see...a PP

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#10 of 28 Old 03-05-2013, 07:12 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

I am up to date, but I haven't run titers or anything. In terms of spreading disease, there are several studies that show vaccinating children makes a difference in infection rates of all ages, regardless of the vaccine status of adults. So is not for nothing that there's so much focus on vaccinating kids.

 

Considering that immunity doesn't seem to last as long as it used to for some of the popular immunisations (like mumps, rubella and pertussis), I wonder if the impact of focusing on vaccinating children is shrinking.

 

And on topic, I know my ummunity status for some stuff, don't care about my status for some other things, and really need to talk to my doctor about updating one thing.

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#11 of 28 Old 03-05-2013, 08:02 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

I don't think it's right to villainize people on either side of the issue, but I have to say the old chestnut of "all the vaccinated kids I know are so sickly" is really tiresome. I don't think it's any more accurate or worthwhile an opinion than blaming all disease outbreaks on unvaccinated children.

The vast majority of kids are vaccinated on schedule or reasonably close to it (or at the very least caught up by school age).

Yeah, and 54% of them are chronically sick.

 

 


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#12 of 28 Old 03-05-2013, 08:14 AM
 
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Mirzam can you help me understand what numbers on the plot you shared add up to 54%? 

 

I assume kids can fall into multiple categories on that plot? Are the numbers percents? What's the original source (I'd like to read more about where the data is from). 

 

This is totally off topic, but I find it shocking that up to 43.2% of children (10-17) are overweight/obese. I assume no-one here would blame that on vaccines?

 

 I really think poor diet (too much processed food at HFCS) is so much more likely to blame for the poor health of children than vaccines. I think I've said it before, but I bet the processed food companies are laughing their socks off over the flack vaccines get for chronic health problems which are so much more likely down to their own low moral standards and wish for high profits (putting profits before health - see recent New York Times magazine article about that).  


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#13 of 28 Old 03-05-2013, 08:22 AM
 
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PSM here is a quote directly from the study

 

 

 

Quote:
An estimated 43% of US children (32 million) currently have at least 1 of 20 chronic health conditions assessed, increasing to 54.1% when overweight, obesity, or being at risk for developmental delays are included; 19.2% (14.2 million) have conditions resulting in a special health care need, a 1.6 point increase since 2003.

 


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#14 of 28 Old 03-05-2013, 09:03 AM
 
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Oh I see - the quote was a link to the study where the figure is from. Sorry I missed that. :) 


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#15 of 28 Old 03-05-2013, 09:43 AM
 
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I bet the processed food companies are laughing their socks off over the flack vaccines get for chronic health problems which are so much more likely down to their own low moral standards and wish for high profits (putting profits before health - see recent New York Times magazine article about that).  

I agree with you here, but I would like to add the government agencies, pharmaceutical companies, Monsanto, etc. to the list. (Since there is a problem with revolving door politics, I consider government and large corporations one in the same.) I have no faith in the moral standards of any of these organizations, which is one reason why I don't trust their recommendations on vaccines, nutrition, disease management, etc.

 

I know you don't believe in the "Big Pharma" theory, but it seems you might believe in the "Big Food" theory? Where food corporations knowingly use unhealthy ingredients in their food, putting profits before health? Food corporations with low moral standards, yes?

 

If you do, then I would like to ask you to research Monsanto, GMO dangers, and Monsanto in US Government. There are good reasons why I have no faith in the entire system, since everything is connected (food, pharma, and the government regulatory agencies.) I recently posted a quick video showing Monsanto's control over the media, and how the media is not legally required to tell the truth. So, add media to my ever-expanding list!

 

Just want to add: I'm not trying to be snarky or argumentative at all, not this time lol! I really do want more people to learn about this, because I don't know how else anything is going to change otherwise.

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#16 of 28 Old 03-05-2013, 10:01 AM
 
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I don't think it's right to villainize people on either side of the issue, but I have to say the old chestnut of "all the vaccinated kids I know are so sickly" is really tiresome. I don't think it's any more accurate or worthwhile an opinion than blaming all disease outbreaks on unvaccinated children.

The vast majority of kids are vaccinated on schedule or reasonably close to it (or at the very least caught up by school age).

I would agree if this is a common thing to toss about that I would find it tiresome too. Folks taking one person they know and extrapolating some sort of meaning from that is also a little difficult to discuss.  In the chart that Mirzam quoted above, I think a lot of those issues are not what anyone would describe as "sickly".  

 

I wonder if folks who don't vaccinate have had a much different experience in the NFL community as I have had. I actually feel as though I see a higher number of things like allergies, sensitivities and other more unusual health problems within the NFL world. I've never thought that NFL was the cause but more that's where a lot of people like me turn when they experience health problems. No point really other than to remark that I'm surprised that those who don't vaccinate/in the NFL community feel like those people are especially healthy because that hasn't been my experience. 

 

Again, not a causation  thing. I definitely think that kids who are sensitive or who have sensitive parents and would benefit greatly from avoiding or delaying some vaccinations. I also think NFL is good for all people and is perhaps especially important for those with healthy problems, which is why I think I see so many of those people in the NFL communities where I have lived.

 

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#17 of 28 Old 03-05-2013, 10:01 AM
 
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I agree with you on a lot of that. We have a lot of reliable objective information about various things like mom santos behavior and gmos. Meanwhile, vaccines are subject to more scrutiny than all of that, and yet there's far less evidence of harm (IMO). Cause for suspicion is not the same thing as guilty.
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#18 of 28 Old 03-05-2013, 10:06 AM
 
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Just want to add: I'm not trying to be snarky or argumentative at all, not this time lol! I really do want more people to learn about this, because I don't know how else anything is going to change otherwise.

Cross posted BB but I tried to follow the gmo bill in CA this past election. greensad.gif

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#19 of 28 Old 03-05-2013, 10:18 AM
 
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Folks taking one person they know and extrapolating some sort of meaning from that is also a little difficult to discuss.

 

I know this is being directed at me and OT really because I did not lump all children into a category - when I used the word "sickly" I mean it as a child who was on antibiotics more than 2 dozen times just within two years of life, misses every holiday/birthday because "they have a cold", constantly on antibiotics for ear, nose and throat issues, and this child I am referring to is not over weight, has no allergies, asthma, no delays and the family thinks this is just normal for a growing child-I view missing 30 plus days a year from school with these "condition" as sickly. It's the only one I know who is fully vaced for everything that you can get in the US- I put it down as personal reference as to people within my immediate circle who I have contact with and know the vac history of.


 

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#20 of 28 Old 03-05-2013, 10:40 AM
 
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Ok, Serenebat. I just don't tend to think like that. I know one 2 pack a day smoker who lived till he was 92. shrug.gif  I still aint gonna start smokin' 


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#21 of 28 Old 03-05-2013, 03:10 PM
 
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Most people I know don't know whether they are immune or not. I only know my status for rubella and chickenpox. I will run a tetanus titer when 10 years are up after my last DT. DH's MMR titers were run for the military but that's it. Technically us older people who received OPV are supposed to be still immune, but is that really so? Any longterm studies showing immunity after decades?

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#22 of 28 Old 03-06-2013, 07:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I am up to date, but I haven't run titers or anything. In terms of spreading disease, there are several studies that show vaccinating children makes a difference in infection rates of all ages, regardless of the vaccine status of adults. So is not for nothing that there's so much focus on vaccinating kids.

So does being up to date equal having 100% immunity? 75%? If you (general you) haven't had your titers checked how do you know that being up to date is working?

What were some reasons for rates being lower? Is it things like children are less likely to practice proper hygiene, many kids in close quarters (schools and such)? Would you mind linking me to some of those studies?

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I had to check all of this when I got a visa to move to the US and again when I got a Greencard. American's really like to check this stuff it seems (PS. my husband did the inverse of this when we moved to the UK, and I don't recall any medical information being part of that). 

PSM, would you have had them checked had you not been required to? Prior to having your children vaccinated?

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We (DH & I) are not up-to-date, nor is our DS (completely free) and only one person we know that is up-to-date - a child and this child is the most sickly child we have ever known. All family, all friends, co-workers, etc are not.

I have posted this prior- cost is a huge factor (with adults) - most are not covered by their insurance, have auto-immune issues, cancer, prior reactions, etc, or are elderly and Medicare only will pay for 3 vacs - the children we know are also (with only one exception) also not fully vaced, having had reactions, or never had any. 

The more I speak about it (IRL) the more I learn of ones that are not vacing. I am finding that more and more know of children that have had reactions and adults that have spoken about medical conditions and their choices not to vac themselves or their children- no longer odd anymore. Some even work in daycare and are teachers, even a few in the medical fields. It no longer is a closet issue, more and more people are talking about it.

I know only one that got a flu vaccine this year (that one child is the only one- parents didn't-he's always sick so it's hard to tell if he had flu or not) and I know no one that got the flu either.

In my area they only run free flu clinics and not for others. We actually make the flu vaccine in my area and I know people who have worked at the facility and they don't even vac.

So do you have to PAY for vaccines in the USA? Does anyone know if you have to pay to have your titers checked in Ontario, Canada?

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I imagine (hope) that most of the people who would villainize parents and children who are not vaccinated on the grounds that it makes society less protected would be up to date on vaccines for the entire family.

I'm not one of those people so I know you aren't talking to me but I've looked into my own status recently. I know the pertussis issue is hotly debated but it's one that I decided to get it for myself before I got it for my child. I suppose when/if I get her MMR I will look again into my titers. 

May I ask why you are so concerned about pertussis? From your post it seems it's the only one you've allowed. Is that right? How come?

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Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama View Post

I would agree if this is a common thing to toss about that I would find it tiresome too. Folks taking one person they know and extrapolating some sort of meaning from that is also a little difficult to discuss.  In the chart that Mirzam quoted above, I think a lot of those issues are not what anyone would describe as "sickly".  

I wonder if folks who don't vaccinate have had a much different experience in the NFL community as I have had. I actually feel as though I see a higher number of things like allergies, sensitivities and other more unusual health problems within the NFL world. I've never thought that NFL was the cause but more that's where a lot of people like me turn when they experience health problems. No point really other than to remark that I'm surprised that those who don't vaccinate/in the NFL community feel like those people are especially healthy because that hasn't been my experience. 


Again, not a causation  thing. I definitely think that kids who are sensitive or who have sensitive parents and would benefit greatly from avoiding or delaying some vaccinations. I also think NFL is good for all people and is perhaps especially important for those with healthy problems, which is why I think I see so many of those people in the NFL communities where I have lived.


 
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This is probably very obvious and I'll hit my head when I get an answer but NFL stands for what?...
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Most people I know don't know whether they are immune or not. I only know my status for rubella and chickenpox. I will run a tetanus titer when 10 years are up after my last DT. DH's MMR titers were run for the military but that's it. Technically us older people who received OPV are supposed to be still immune, but is that really so? Any longterm studies showing immunity after decades?

And are your/is your children/child vaccinated?
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#23 of 28 Old 03-06-2013, 07:14 PM
 
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Wen I say up to date I mean with my vaccines. I've had all the boosters it's recommended I have.

I'll see if I can find some of that literature for you.
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#24 of 28 Old 03-06-2013, 07:19 PM
 
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Here's a run down of a bunch of studies of herd effect.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3171704/

I'm not an epidemiologist so I can only speculate on why children are more prone to spread disease. I imagine its related to poorer hygeine (touch eyes/noses/faces more often, aren't as good at washing hands, etc) and less developed immune systems that maybe make them more susceptible.
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#25 of 28 Old 03-06-2013, 07:27 PM
 
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May I ask why you are so concerned about pertussis? From your post it seems it's the only one you've allowed. Is that right? How come?

I opted for the pertussis/tetanus vaccine because I know I'd be nagged about tetanus if I were injured (and I'm not one to fret over wound care) and because I am concerned with pertussis being on the rise. I know that I may still get pertussis even if vaccinated but I think that the vaccine will offer some deal of protection. Pertussis seems like a really crappy illness to have. I mean, tetanus does too...   At some point, I suppose I may get a MMR shot because I don't think I'm immune. (well one MW told me I wasn't). But I'm also finished having children. Another reason I got the adult Dtap is because I am getting that for my child and I wanted to know what it was like. That thought didn't occur to me for my first child and I'm glad I chose to do that this time around...because the Dtap is actually quite painful and I felt really poor for a couple of days after. I feel more prepared to help my child, having gone through it myself recently. 

 

Oh, and I don't get a flu shot because I rarely get the flu and I figure don't fix what 'aint broke. winky.gif


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#26 of 28 Old 03-07-2013, 10:08 AM
 
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So do you have to PAY for vaccines in the USA?

YES! unless you qualify for govt assistance for medical - it is currently not required that my insurance pay in my state - for us all out of pocket! plus the office visit

 

ETA- I was able to get 2 titer check during my last pregnancy because my OB wrote that I had been exposed otherwise they would have only payed for 1


 

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#27 of 28 Old 03-07-2013, 10:58 AM
 
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I have BlueCross BlueShield insurance and adult immunizations are completely covered.  I also think they can be done at many health departments for free.


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#28 of 28 Old 03-07-2013, 11:50 AM
 
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I have BlueCross BlueShield insurance and adult immunizations are completely covered.  I also think they can be done at many health departments for free.

In the US right now, private insurance companies are not YET required to cover vac- some due and some also have very high deductible as well - currently (and even this isn't today!) flu shot (not mist) was the only free available to me and only when a clinic was run- not all the time on demand-each state is different. I also have a family deductible of $1500.00 (plus our premium cost), so it's not like we really even have insurance!

 

Until the requirement goes into effect with mandating coverage via Affordable Care Act, I pay 100%.


 

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