Paul G King PhD rebuttal to Dr Gregory Poland's "Answer" “Foregoing immunizations puts child and others at risk”, Chicago Tribune - Page 2 - Mothering Forums
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#31 of 40 Old 03-26-2013, 10:56 AM
 
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Hope you had a nice Friday.

In the absence of counter examples ill continue to assume all professional scientists working in vaccines will be ignored by the clause your person included. Good to know he's open to real fact checks. (That was sarcasm).

well you know what they say about assuming..................


If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#32 of 40 Old 03-26-2013, 11:36 AM
 
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well you know what they say about assuming..................

I do!

 

.......and I am breathless waiting winky.gif maybe we will also hear about declines in NonVPD (that also happened)


 

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#33 of 40 Old 03-26-2013, 03:02 PM
 
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OK, back to the topic at hand, which is debunking just over a page of the original document (starting on pg 35) in which it is claimed vaccinations have not contributed to the decline of VPDs, but it's all down to sanitation and antibiotics 

 

 

 

Quote:

 

In every case, improved sanitation, clean drinking water, hygiene, nutrition, living conditions, and, to a lesser extent, the introduction of antimicrobial drugs in the 1940s and 1950s were the chief factors causing this reduction in notifiable disease reports 

 

 

 

(I have no idea what "everyone believes", but Mr. King wrote that). 

 

I found some nice (well references) visualisations which make this really easy for me. I'll just start with a couple of them, which most directly address the questions about what happens if there is no significant change in sanitation practices. 

 

 

*

 

 

*

 

 

*


Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

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#34 of 40 Old 03-26-2013, 04:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

OK, back to the topic at hand, which is debunking just over a page of the original document (starting on pg 35) in which it is claimed vaccinations have not contributed to the decline of VPDs, but it's all down to sanitation and antibiotics 

 

 

 

 

(I have no idea what "everyone believes", but Mr. King wrote that). 

 

I found some nice (well references) visualisations which make this really easy for me. I'll just start with a couple of them, which most directly address the questions about what happens if there is no significant change in sanitation practices. 

 

 

*

 

 

*

 

 

*

You claim not to be a vaccine shill - guess your just a PROsciencemum PROpagandist for your FB memes!!!!!!!!!!!!! just as I said, copy & paste right from their page!ROTFLMAO.gif


 

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#35 of 40 Old 03-26-2013, 05:28 PM
 
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Klassy, serenbat.
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#36 of 40 Old 03-27-2013, 05:00 AM
 
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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

OK, back to the topic at hand, which is debunking just over a page of the original document (starting on pg 35) in which it is claimed vaccinations have not contributed to the decline of VPDs, but it's all down to sanitation and antibiotics 

 

Well it's quite apparent you are far from professional/creditable and care far more about pushing a Facebook meme agenda - unlike addressing the topic in any real way you chose this and other threads to insult most of us with your cartoons.

 

 

 

 

It must be hard to face that VPD and nonVPD (because both are tied together) are based on sanitation, HYGINE, access to medical care (and this also means the use of antibiotics) and they still are! 

 

As the CDC says - http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm4829a1.htm

 

 

The 19th century shift in population from country to city that accompanied industrialization and immigration led to overcrowding in poor housing served by inadequate or nonexistent public water supplies and waste-disposal systems. These conditions resulted in repeated outbreaks of cholera, dysentery, TB, typhoid fever, influenza, yellow fever, and malaria.

By 1900, however, the incidence of many of these diseases had begun to decline because of public health improvements, implementation of which continued into the 20th century.

 

and we have to look at what is happening today as well...... there are many countries that still have not been able to vaccinate their way out of VPD or nonVPD and that big reason is sanitation! The CDC, WHO and many many large and smaller organizations and charities and various countries are pouring tons of dollars into this because they know this is the key to all of it

 

http://new.paho.org/hq/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=8337&Itemid=1926

http://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/global/programs/

http://www.irinnews.org/Report/84386/GLOBAL-Sanitation-vs-vaccination-in-cholera-control  (and guess what they don't have a horse in the anti-vaccine movement!)

http://www.publichealth.go.ke/sanitation-and-hygiene-promotion

 

there are many real ways to talk about this and other threads

 

 

It's hard to have any critical thinking or a rational discussion when you think that people want to be insulted by your memes! You know who really likes them? Your fellow non informed meme friends who think people who are questioning and delaying/not vaccinating are stupid. One only has to look at your source and see what you think of others here who don't tow your agenda. Spin this anyway you want, you took several memes off a FB page that views anyone who does not vac on schedule as dumb, stupid and a thread to society! That's not a rational person to have a conversation with-IMO

 

It must be hard to come to terms with this thread and the fact that in general those questioning vaccines is GROWING. Big Pharma is not just vaccines, it's medication in the minds of many, and with that, reactions are happening, recalls are happening and it's all tied together. In the mind of ordinary people, the questioning is growing. Growing mistrust is getting larger (you know it's true and each time there is a survey it shows it too) and I'm sure this must scare you and you fellow memes and make you think that you have to resort to low level cartoons. They look foolish and so do you Karen.


 

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#37 of 40 Old 03-27-2013, 06:11 AM
 
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Meme or not, those are some sharp graphs.

Improved sanitation obviously has a huge impact on health. However for many specific diseases it doesn't have a large impact. Sanitation doesn't so much for you when a disease is spread through the air, for example.

Certainly it's not all or nothing, though, and living conditions absolutely have an impact on how diseases spread.

I don't want to speak for psm, but personally I definitely don't think people who decline vaccines are stupid. If I did I wouldn't bother to engage at all.
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#38 of 40 Old 03-27-2013, 06:40 AM
 
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IMO when you align yourself with a group and promote their propaganda (5+ memes) directly taken from their site, that really shows where your true motives are and I don't view them as wanting/desiring true discussions.


 

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#39 of 40 Old 03-27-2013, 07:29 AM
 
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If you prefer the graphs from a different source here there are:

 

Rotavirus rates: 

https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2012/197/8/changes-hospitalisations-acute-gastroenteritis-australia-after-national-rotavirus

 

Here's the image from that source. The caption to the below is "Number of hospitalisations (by month of admission) coded as rotavirus gastroenteritus (all ages) and infant rotavirus vaccine coverage (Coverage was calculated using data from the Australian Childhood Immunisation Register by 3-month birth cohorts born between 1 July 2007 and 31 March 2009, and the coverage assessment date was 12 months after the last birth date of each cohort.) Australia July 2001 to June 2010). 

 

 

HiB rates in Canada (from the Public Healthy Agency of Canada): 

 

http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/im/vpd-mev/hib-eng.php

 

Image from there (with this note "*Case data obtained from the Canadian Notifiable Disease Surveillance System. Population data obtained from Statistics Canada July 1st annual estimates. Data for 2009 to 2011 are preliminary. Only Hib meningitis was reportable from 1979 to 1985. After this, all invasive disease caused by Hib became reportable.

‡PRP-D represent Hib conjugate vaccine containing purified polyribosylribitol phosphate capsular polysaccharide of Hib covalently bound to diphtheria protein."): 

 

 

 

And finally (for now) HiB rates in the USA from the CDC pink book:

 

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/hib.html 

 

 

 

 

Can we debate the content now rather than complain about the source? These do all to me show that in these diseases (HiB and rotavirus) it was vaccines which reduce the incidence dramatically. So Dr. King's statement that it's always sanitation, hygiene or anti-biotics I consider to have been proven wrong. 

 

Although I do agree those things help a lot too. Of course they do. Let's just take the benefit of improvements in those things along with vaccines.


Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

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#40 of 40 Old 03-27-2013, 06:17 PM
 
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Did anyone bother to look at all these pretty graphs? 

 

Found right inside Dr. King's work from his sourced linked at the bottom of his pages?

 

such as this little bit of info.......

 

http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/media/Obamsawin_Vaccination_Tables.pdf        You click on the graph (s) you can go directly to the source for many of them, some you can not - 

 

as in the ones from Canada, etc  http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/publicat/cig-gci/p04-meas-roug-eng.php

 

there are a lot and it does take time and to some, well worth it thumb.gif


 

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lurk.gif  PROUD member of the .3% club!

 

Want to join? Just ask me!

 

"You know, in my day we used to sit on our ass smoking Parliaments for nine months.

Today, you have one piece of Brie and everybody goes berserk."      ROTFLMAO.gif 

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