Paul G King PhD rebuttal to Dr Gregory Poland's "Answer" “Foregoing immunizations puts child and others at risk”, Chicago Tribune - Mothering Forums
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#1 of 40 Old 03-18-2013, 08:12 AM - Thread Starter
 
Mirzam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Outside the hive mind
Posts: 7,302
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)

X-post in vaccine research forum

 

This is brilliant! Dr King as always has produced an excellent well research article. A must read! He has also asked that if he has any factual errors in this piece he be contacted so he can correct it. So all your pro-vaxers, have at it, tell us and him what is wrong with his rebuttal.

 

 

 

 

Quote:

 

[s]hould anyone find any significant factual error in this review for which they have independent, scientifically sound, peer-reviewed published substantiating documents, please submit that information to this reviewer so that he can improve his under* standing of factual reality and, where appropriate, revise his views and this analysis. 

 

 

 

http://dr-king.com/docs/130306_DrftRevu_Of_ForegoingImmunization___final_b.pdf

 

oops sorry about the the funky formatting, it that on the x-post too


Rainbow.giftstillheart.gifsmile.gif

 

"If you find from your own experience that something is a fact and it contradicts what some authority has written down, then you must abandon the authority and base your reasoning on your own findings"~ Leonardo da Vinci

Mirzam is online now  
#2 of 40 Old 03-18-2013, 06:55 PM
 
emmy526's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,650
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)

http://dr-king.com/docs/130306_DrftRevu_Of_ForegoingImmunization___final_b.pdf

 

whoops...cross post

emmy526 is online now  
#3 of 40 Old 03-21-2013, 12:59 PM
 
Marnica's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,585
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)

I have been waiting for the usual suspects to chime in and have multiple issues with this rebuttal.  Shocked there hasn't been some posts about this.

 

Personally I thought it was quite thought provoking. orngbiggrin.gif


If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

Marnica is offline  
#4 of 40 Old 03-21-2013, 02:14 PM
 
prosciencemum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,706
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
It's a really long article/rant. I started to read it and gave up in disgust if I'm honest.

Think I might have trouble finding a source he accepts as a rebuttal anyway, since he says anyone who thinks vaccines are a good idea should be discounted - and that includes basically all scientists working in the area (well actually basically all scientists).

Anyway give us time. In still waiting for many answers on this forum I didn't get too.

Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

prosciencemum is offline  
#5 of 40 Old 03-21-2013, 02:38 PM - Thread Starter
 
Mirzam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Outside the hive mind
Posts: 7,302
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

It's a really long article/rant. I started to read it and gave up in disgust if I'm honest.

Think I might have trouble finding a source he accepts as a rebuttal anyway, since he says anyone who thinks vaccines are a good idea should be discounted - and that includes basically all scientists working in the area (well actually basically all scientists).

Anyway give us time. In still waiting for many answers on this forum I didn't get too.

First I would hardly call it a rant, especially in comparison of some of the pro-vaccine blogs you have posted here in the past which bordered on the offensive. But, yes it is long, because it is comprehensive and extremely well sited.

 

I don't think he is looking to find a source to accept it. Again, PSM, you have added nothing, all you have done is made a personal attack on the writer.

 

I look forward to your critique, and please be sure to send in any factual error, with substantiating evidence to Dr King, I am sure he would appreciate it.


Rainbow.giftstillheart.gifsmile.gif

 

"If you find from your own experience that something is a fact and it contradicts what some authority has written down, then you must abandon the authority and base your reasoning on your own findings"~ Leonardo da Vinci

Mirzam is online now  
#6 of 40 Old 03-21-2013, 03:03 PM
 
prosciencemum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,706
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
I'm entitled to my opinion on the article (which is not the same as a personal attack - I might think he's lovely, but the article still reads like a rant to me).

Thanks for the link to the thing he's rebutting though. Seems to me like a nice measured explanation of the reasons to choose to vaccinate.

http://my.chicagotribune.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-72580044/

Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

prosciencemum is offline  
#7 of 40 Old 03-21-2013, 03:07 PM - Thread Starter
 
Mirzam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Outside the hive mind
Posts: 7,302
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

I'm entitled to my opinion on the article (which is not the same as a personal attack - I might think he's lovely, but the article still reads like a rant to me).

Thanks for the link to the thing he's rebutting though. Seems to me like a nice measured explanation of the reasons to choose to vaccinate.

http://my.chicagotribune.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-72580044/

 

I am entitled to be disgusted by some of the rabid pro-vax blogs you post links to here frequently.

 

The article he is rebutting is pure unadulterated vax-ganda of the most banal variety. 

 

#InMyOpinion

Marnica likes this.

Rainbow.giftstillheart.gifsmile.gif

 

"If you find from your own experience that something is a fact and it contradicts what some authority has written down, then you must abandon the authority and base your reasoning on your own findings"~ Leonardo da Vinci

Mirzam is online now  
#8 of 40 Old 03-21-2013, 06:44 PM
 
Taximom5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,102
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

I'm entitled to my opinion on the article (which is not the same as a personal attack - I might think he's lovely, but the article still reads like a rant to me).

Thanks for the link to the thing he's rebutting though. Seems to me like a nice measured explanation of the reasons to choose to vaccinate.

http://my.chicagotribune.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-72580044/

 

Really? Seemed like a commercial exhorting us (with loads of propaganda, much of which were lies, and they left out a lot of inconvenient truths as well) to purchase a product to me. Oh, wait, that's what it really was.
Taximom5 is online now  
#9 of 40 Old 03-21-2013, 06:48 PM
 
emmy526's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,650
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

 

Really? Seemed like a commercial exhorting us (with loads of propaganda, much of which were lies, and they left out a lot of inconvenient truths as well) to purchase a product to me. Oh, wait, that's what it really was.

yes, quite the one sided  and biased piece of literature, for sure

emmy526 is online now  
#10 of 40 Old 03-22-2013, 12:10 AM
 
prosciencemum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,706
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by emmy526 View Post

yes, quite the one sided  and biased piece of literature, for sure

We do see a lot of one sided biased literature quoted here I agree.

Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

prosciencemum is offline  
#11 of 40 Old 03-22-2013, 12:17 AM
 
prosciencemum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,706
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Although "literature" might be a bit much to describe some of it.

And I agree we're all entitled to our opinions - it's even in the UA.

Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

prosciencemum is offline  
#12 of 40 Old 03-22-2013, 07:40 AM
 
Marnica's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,585
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

It's a really long article/rant. I started to read it and gave up in disgust if I'm honest.

Think I might have trouble finding a source he accepts as a rebuttal anyway, since he says anyone who thinks vaccines are a good idea should be discounted - and that includes basically all scientists working in the area (well actually basically all scientists).

Anyway give us time. In still waiting for many answers on this forum I didn't get too.

headscratch.gif seriously? hmmmmm I didn't find anything remotely rant like about it. You are right in that it is very long and while I read most of it, some of that was skimming so would you be so kind as you quote the part where he says that anyone who thinks vaccines are a good idea should be discounted? Thanks


If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

Marnica is offline  
#13 of 40 Old 03-22-2013, 09:50 AM
 
prosciencemum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,706
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marnica View Post

headscratch.gif seriously? hmmmmm I didn't find anything remotely rant like about it. You are right in that it is very long and while I read most of it, some of that was skimming so would you be so kind as you quote the part where he says that anyone who thinks vaccines are a good idea should be discounted? Thanks

 

Well, he spends almost a page critiquing the title, and the use of immunization as a synonym for vaccination, which I'm pretty sure is common useage. In fact this online dictionary defines immunize as such: 

 

 

 

 

Quote:

immunize

verb [T] (UK usually immunise) 
 
 
/ˈɪm.jʊ.naɪz/

Definition

 to protect a person or animal against a disease by putting a substance into their body, usually using a needle:Children are routinely immunized against polio.

 

And vaccinate: 

 

 

 

Quote:

 

 

 

vaccinate

verb [T] 
 
 
/ˈvæk.sɪ.neɪt/

Definition

C2 to give someone a vaccine, usually by injection, to prevent them from getting a disease:The children were vaccinated against the major childhood diseases.→ See also inoculateimmunize

 

So that's sort of where I get the idea it's a bit rant like. I think he could have let that go...

 

And the bit about sources is a footnote on the first page which says: 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote:
To qualify as an independent document, the study should be published by researchers who have no direct or indirect conflicts of interest from their ties to either those commercial entities who profit from the sale of vaccines or those entities, academic, commercial or governmental, who directly or indirectly, actively promote vaccines, the development of vaccines, and/or inoculation programs using vaccines. 

 

So I read that as he won't accept as a source anything from any researcher tied to any academic, commercial or government agency who thinks vaccines are a good idea (which is basically all of them). So you can't be a professional researcher and rebut him basically..... 

 

In fact he should ignore me, because I work for a university which thinks vaccines are a good idea and therefore indirectly promotes them..... 

 

Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

prosciencemum is offline  
#14 of 40 Old 03-22-2013, 10:18 AM
 
serenbat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,103
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)

So I read that as he won't accept as a source anything from any researcher tied to any academic, commercial or government agency who thinks vaccines are a good idea (which is basically all of them). So you can't be a professional researcher and rebut him basically..... 

 

In fact he should ignore me, because I work for a university which thinks vaccines are a good idea and therefore indirectly promotes them..... 

 

So you are a paid professional researcher with ties to the Pharma?  


 

 pro-transparency advocate

&

lurk.gif  PROUD member of the .3% club!

 

Want to join? Just ask me!

 

"You know, in my day we used to sit on our ass smoking Parliaments for nine months.

Today, you have one piece of Brie and everybody goes berserk."      ROTFLMAO.gif 

serenbat is offline  
#15 of 40 Old 03-22-2013, 10:28 AM - Thread Starter
 
Mirzam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Outside the hive mind
Posts: 7,302
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)

PSM, your clearly have no rebuttal for Dr King, as you are obviously coming up with excuses. Not surprised.


Rainbow.giftstillheart.gifsmile.gif

 

"If you find from your own experience that something is a fact and it contradicts what some authority has written down, then you must abandon the authority and base your reasoning on your own findings"~ Leonardo da Vinci

Mirzam is online now  
#16 of 40 Old 03-22-2013, 10:42 AM
 
prosciencemum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,706
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Marnica asked me to post that so I did.

Serenbat - no as I think was clear from what I posted. I work for a university. I've never hidden that I'm a professional scientist (in physical sciences). It's in my signature if I recall.

Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

prosciencemum is offline  
#17 of 40 Old 03-22-2013, 10:52 AM
 
serenbat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,103
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

Serenbat - no as I think was clear from what I posted. I work for a university. I've never hidden that I'm a professional scientist (in physical sciences). It's in my signature if I recall.

Doctor, it must be an easy job! It allows you lots of time to post for us.


 

 pro-transparency advocate

&

lurk.gif  PROUD member of the .3% club!

 

Want to join? Just ask me!

 

"You know, in my day we used to sit on our ass smoking Parliaments for nine months.

Today, you have one piece of Brie and everybody goes berserk."      ROTFLMAO.gif 

serenbat is offline  
#18 of 40 Old 03-22-2013, 12:10 PM
 
Marnica's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,585
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

 

Well, he spends almost a page critiquing the title, and the use of immunization as a synonym for vaccination, which I'm pretty sure is common useage. In fact this online dictionary defines immunize as such: 

 

 

 

 

 

And vaccinate: 

 

 

 

 

So that's sort of where I get the idea it's a bit rant like. I think he could have let that go...

 

And the bit about sources is a footnote on the first page which says: 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So I read that as he won't accept as a source anything from any researcher tied to any academic, commercial or government agency who thinks vaccines are a good idea (which is basically all of them). So you can't be a professional researcher and rebut him basically..... 

 

In fact he should ignore me, because I work for a university which thinks vaccines are a good idea and therefore indirectly promotes them..... 

 

 So he's saying research should be free from conflict of interest and you have interpreted that to mean that information from any living soul who thinks vaccination may be of use or a good idea should be discounted. So there really is no quote to post. That was just your personal interpretation. Fair enough.


If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

Marnica is offline  
#19 of 40 Old 03-22-2013, 12:46 PM
 
prosciencemum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,706
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by serenbat View Post

Doctor, it must be an easy job! It allows you lots of time to post for us.

 

This has come up before. I'm not sure what it adds to the conversation, but I'll bite this time I guess.... 

 

I think it's just a lot quicker for me to write these posts than some of you think. 

 

Part of my job means I have to get good at reading research, digesting facts and understanding interpretations. I'm also very good at maths (and statistics). And I'm used to thinking about how to write this all down for people to try to explain what I mean (scientists have to write a lot).


Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

prosciencemum is offline  
#20 of 40 Old 03-22-2013, 12:53 PM
 
prosciencemum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,706
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marnica View Post

 So he's saying research should be free from conflict of interest and you have interpreted that to mean that information from any living soul who thinks vaccination may be of use or a good idea should be discounted. So there really is no quote to post. That was just your personal interpretation. Fair enough.

 

Yeah you're right. I misread 

 

"the study should be published by researchers who have no direct or indirect conflicts of interest from their ties to [] entities, academic, commercial or governmental, who directly or indirectly, actively promote vaccines, the development of vaccines, and/or inoculation programs using vaccines. "

 

to mean: 

 

"the study should be published by researchers who [do not] directly or indirectly, actively promote vaccines, the development of vaccines, and/or inoculation programs using vaccines. "

 

My mistake

 

Still think it exclude any studies by any professional scientists though. If you want you can try to prove me wrong and find me an "academic or governmental entity" which employs scientists researching vaccines and their safety which does not at least indirectly promote vaccines in some way. 

 

That will be your homework - mine will be to read more of the article. I have some comments on the length at which immunity lasts (from vaccines cf infection) which I just need to search out the references for. But it's Friday night here and I'm going to eat Chinese takeaway and watch TV. Interpret that as a diversion technique if you like. :) 


Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

prosciencemum is offline  
#21 of 40 Old 03-22-2013, 01:05 PM
 
Marnica's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,585
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

 

Yeah you're right. I misread 

 

"the study should be published by researchers who have no direct or indirect conflicts of interest from their ties to [] entities, academic, commercial or governmental, who directly or indirectly, actively promote vaccines, the development of vaccines, and/or inoculation programs using vaccines. "

 

to mean: 

 

"the study should be published by researchers who [do not] directly or indirectly, actively promote vaccines, the development of vaccines, and/or inoculation programs using vaccines. "

 

My mistake

 

Still think it exclude any studies by any professional scientists though. If you want you can try to prove me wrong and find me an "academic or governmental entity" which employs scientists researching vaccines and their safety which does not at least indirectly promote vaccines in some way. 

 

That will be your homework - mine will be to read more of the article. I have some comments on the length at which immunity lasts (from vaccines cf infection) which I just need to search out the references for. But it's Friday night here and I'm going to eat Chinese takeaway and watch TV. Interpret that as a diversion technique if you like. :) 

Not at all. I enjoy chinese and tv too. I have no interest in proving you wrong PSM as that would be a huge waste of my energy. I have 2 happy, health kiddos that are waiting for me on this Friday night so I have way better things to do than try and prove you wrong. I was just trying to see if there was an actual quote from the article that made the statement that you said it did. There wasn't. That's all I wanted to know orngbiggrin.gif Enjoy your Chinese!


If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

Marnica is offline  
#22 of 40 Old 03-23-2013, 04:40 AM
 
prosciencemum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,706
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Hope you had a nice Friday.

In the absence of counter examples ill continue to assume all professional scientists working in vaccines will be ignored by the clause your person included. Good to know he's open to real fact checks. (That was sarcasm).

Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

prosciencemum is offline  
#23 of 40 Old 03-23-2013, 06:20 AM - Thread Starter
 
Mirzam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Outside the hive mind
Posts: 7,302
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

Hope you had a nice Friday.

In the absence of counter examples ill continue to assume all professional scientists working in vaccines will be ignored by the clause your person included. Good to know he's open to real fact checks. (That was sarcasm).

Still using excuses, I am sure Dr King would have clarified his conditions if you asked him, he even provided his phone number. 


Rainbow.giftstillheart.gifsmile.gif

 

"If you find from your own experience that something is a fact and it contradicts what some authority has written down, then you must abandon the authority and base your reasoning on your own findings"~ Leonardo da Vinci

Mirzam is online now  
#24 of 40 Old 03-24-2013, 02:12 AM
 
prosciencemum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,706
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
I read more of it this morning. It's a real interesting summary of the many misconceptions used in the antivax community. A lot of it sounds like science, but just isn't frankly. Still reads like a rant to me. I begin to wonder what personal issues Mr King has against Dr Poland.

Now you're going to jump on me for a lack of sources for that statement - well a lot of it I've already tried to debunk multiple times on this board. Try a search on something.

Also I don't expect many of the people posting will listen to anything I say (and will probably now try to derail the thread into personal attacks on me including insinuations I'm a pharma shill). I've heard it all before, and I will work through the debunking again on this thread for the benefit of linkers and google searchers who are still researching the issues.

Hey it might be "fun" to collect it all together. Must be some reason I keep trying to do this!

Will take a bit of time though, so stay tuned. smile.gif

Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

prosciencemum is offline  
#25 of 40 Old 03-24-2013, 04:28 AM
 
prosciencemum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,706
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)

OK, so I'll start with the "rebuttal" to the statement that: 

 

 

 

Quote (Dr.Poland from here: http://www.chicagotribune.com/health/sns-201209271830--tms--mayoclnctnmc-a20120927-20120927,0,4773252.story) :
 If these diseases seem uncommon, it simply means that vaccines are doing their job.

 

Mr. King responds (starting on pg 35 of his document) with just over a page of comments which imply that he thinks all vaccine preventable diseases were in decline from improved sanitation before vaccinations were introduced. This is a pretty common statement to find on anti-vaccination biased websites. 

 

I don't think anyone denies that improved sanitation contributed to the decline of many diseases. Also it's undeniable that the death rate following infection has declined due to improvements in how diseases could be treated (notably the discovery of antibiotics) which also happened around the same time as many common immunizations (or vaccines, since as I proved above the words are interchangeable in common use) were developed.

 

There's a great discussion of how this played out with measles death rates and incidence rates I've posted before on these threads. Sadly I failed to save the link offline. I need to stop now for lunch, but I'll come back with more on this (and hopefully find that link). :)

 

Also I have some lots more proof that sanitation cannot entirely explain the declines in all VPDs which I will share. 


Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

prosciencemum is offline  
#26 of 40 Old 03-24-2013, 04:50 AM
 
serenbat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,103
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post
 I need to stop now for lunch, but I'll come back with more on this (and hopefully find that link). :)

Also I have some lots more proof that sanitation cannot entirely explain the declines in all VPDs which I will share. 

oh, we are all waiting for you to copy and paste from Pro-vac sites (they have tons of things you can use) to explain sanitation didn't do it!! and if you stay out to lunch, I don't think anyone will miss you. Having pears or dried shitake mushrooms? 


 

 pro-transparency advocate

&

lurk.gif  PROUD member of the .3% club!

 

Want to join? Just ask me!

 

"You know, in my day we used to sit on our ass smoking Parliaments for nine months.

Today, you have one piece of Brie and everybody goes berserk."      ROTFLMAO.gif 

serenbat is offline  
#27 of 40 Old 03-24-2013, 06:10 AM
 
chickabiddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,472
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by serenbat View Postand if you stay out to lunch, I don't think anyone will miss you.

 

Such elevated discourse.  You should be proud of your eloquence.

prosciencemum likes this.

Carseat-checking (CPST) and WAH mama to a twelve-year-old girl.
chickabiddy is online now  
#28 of 40 Old 03-25-2013, 04:34 AM
 
serenbat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,103
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

Also I have some lots more proof that sanitation cannot entirely explain the declines in all VPDs which I will share. 

 

whistling.gif Still waiting to hear how sanitation didn't do it----by the way, don't look to the CDC or WHO - because they both think "sanitation" was (and guess what? STILL IS!!)  super important!


 

 pro-transparency advocate

&

lurk.gif  PROUD member of the .3% club!

 

Want to join? Just ask me!

 

"You know, in my day we used to sit on our ass smoking Parliaments for nine months.

Today, you have one piece of Brie and everybody goes berserk."      ROTFLMAO.gif 

serenbat is offline  
#29 of 40 Old 03-25-2013, 10:36 AM
 
prosciencemum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,706
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)

Sanitation is super important. So are vaccines.

 

I have a job - bit too busy today. I'll get back to it. Don't worry. 


Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

prosciencemum is offline  
#30 of 40 Old 03-25-2013, 11:02 AM
 
serenbat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,103
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

Also I have some lots more proof that sanitation cannot entirely explain the declines in all VPDs which I will share. 

and please post how all of us believe that sanitation did it entirely alone 


 

 pro-transparency advocate

&

lurk.gif  PROUD member of the .3% club!

 

Want to join? Just ask me!

 

"You know, in my day we used to sit on our ass smoking Parliaments for nine months.

Today, you have one piece of Brie and everybody goes berserk."      ROTFLMAO.gif 

serenbat is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off