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#1 of 27 Old 03-18-2013, 08:49 PM - Thread Starter
 
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This is a superb article by Hilary Butler, lots of stats and quotes.

 

http://www.beyondconformity.org.nz/_blog/Hilary%27s_Desk/post/Parents_want_the_truth_about_the_flu_vaccine,__Professor_Phillips/


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#2 of 27 Old 03-19-2013, 01:52 PM
 
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After reading those facts about the lack of effectiveness of the flu jab, it's a wonder that anyone would even consider getting a flu jab. And she didn't even mention the fact that the pediatric flu jab was pulled off the European and Australian markets because they caused narcolepsy, a lifelong disorder that has quite a bit of overlap with seizure disorders.


And after considering the strong-arm tactics used to push other vaccines, it certainly calls into question the safety/efficacy of other vaccines as well.

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#3 of 27 Old 03-19-2013, 03:30 PM
 
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Wasn't that h1n1 not regular flu vaccine?
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#4 of 27 Old 03-19-2013, 05:00 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

Wasn't that h1n1 not regular flu vaccine?

"Regular flu vaccine" includes h1n1: http://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/keyfacts.htm

 

"The seasonal flu vaccine protects against three influenza viruses that research indicates will be most common during the upcoming season. Three kinds of influenza viruses commonly circulate among people today: influenza B viruses, influenza A (H1N1) viruses, and influenza A (H3N2) viruses. Each year, one flu virus of each kind is used to produce seasonal influenza vaccine.

 
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#5 of 27 Old 03-19-2013, 05:17 PM
 
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Right, but I thought the problems overseas were specifically with the stand alone h1n1 vaccine. (And they have nothing to do with the flu vaccine used here in the us.)
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#6 of 27 Old 03-19-2013, 05:44 PM
 
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http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/h1n1_narcolepsy_pandemrix.html

 

 

 

Quote:
Pandemrix is manufactured by GlaxoSmithKline in Europe and was specifically produced for pandemic 2009 H1N1 influenza. It was not used before 2009, and has not been used since the influenza pandemic season (2009-2010)

 

 

Quote:
Pandemrix was not licensed for use in the United States. In fact, no adjuvanted influenza vaccines are licensed in the United States, and no adjuvanted influenza vaccines were used in the United States during the influenza pandemic or in any other influenza season.
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#7 of 27 Old 03-19-2013, 08:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

Right, but I thought the problems overseas were specifically with the stand alone h1n1 vaccine. (And they have nothing to do with the flu vaccine used here in the us.)

Nothing to do with the flu vaccine used here in the US?  Are you certain?  Did you research every ingredient, every possible source of contamination, every lab that was used, to be sure that none of the vaccines share ANYTHING?

Have they determined exactly what ingredient in Pandemrix was responsible for the narcolepsy reactions?

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#8 of 27 Old 03-20-2013, 12:34 AM
 
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It was one brand of the pandemic h1n1 flu vaccine in Europe. I think I read they are suggesting a new adjuvant may be the problem. This has never been licensed for use in the us, and is no longer in use in Europe. We've had threads before on here talking about this finding.

One interesting point to me is that they pulled this brand of vaccine very quickly and are taking the safety concerns very seriously - even though it was just a small increase in the rate of narcolepsy (which does happen in the absence of vaccines too).

Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

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#9 of 27 Old 03-20-2013, 03:53 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

Nothing to do with the flu vaccine used here in the US?  Are you certain?  Did you research every ingredient, every possible source of contamination, every lab that was used, to be sure that none of the vaccines share ANYTHING?

Have they determined exactly what ingredient in Pandemrix was responsible for the narcolepsy reactions?

 

 

Quote:
The paper mentions the use of ASO3 the adjuvant found in Pandemrix but declines to say if that was one of the causes or not. The report says;

http://www.narcolepsy.org.uk/NewsEvents/NewlightinPandemrixandNarcolepsy.aspx#.UUmU4xyG11I

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#10 of 27 Old 03-20-2013, 03:54 AM
 
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Pandemrix was not licensed for use in the United States. In fact, no adjuvanted influenza vaccines are licensed in the United States, and no adjuvanted influenza vaccines were used in the United States during the influenza pandemic or in any other influenza season.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/h1n1_narcolepsy_pandemrix.html

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#11 of 27 Old 03-20-2013, 05:27 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

Nothing to do with the flu vaccine used here in the US?  Are you certain?  Did you research every ingredient, every possible source of contamination, every lab that was used, to be sure that none of the vaccines share ANYTHING?


Have they determined exactly what ingredient in Pandemrix was responsible for the narcolepsy reactions?

Pretty sure they've concluded it was the adjuvant.
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#12 of 27 Old 03-20-2013, 12:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post


Pretty sure they've concluded it was the adjuvant.

Could you please post a source?

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#13 of 27 Old 03-20-2013, 12:49 PM
 
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I already did.
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#14 of 27 Old 03-20-2013, 01:16 PM
 
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Here's a thread where we discussed this before: http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1375521/more-to-think-about-pandemrix-narcolepsy

 

(or just search "narcolepsy" or "pandremix" in MDC - they have a fantastic search engine).


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#15 of 27 Old 03-20-2013, 01:35 PM
 
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Isn't the flu shot different from year to year and varies from one country to the other?

 

In Canada in 2009 there was a separate vaccine for H1N1.

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#16 of 27 Old 03-20-2013, 02:15 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post


Pretty sure they've concluded it was the adjuvant.

Could you please provide a link plus a quote, so we know exactly who concluded that it was the adjuvant, exactly which adjuvant it was, and exactly how they determined this.

 

thank you.

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#17 of 27 Old 03-20-2013, 02:21 PM
 
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Taxi - I'm answering for Rrrrrachel. 

 

Here's a link: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/31/pandemrix-narcolepsy-swine-flu-shot-britain_n_2588859.html

 

Here's a quote: 

 

 

 

Quote:
The abstract shows that the research team, led by Liz ******, a consultant epidemiologist at the UK Health Protection Agency (HPA), found an almost 10-fold increased risk in cases of the sleep disorder in children seen in sleep centres who had been immunised with Pandemrix.

 

Here's another link (to Elizabeth ******'s published article): http://www.bmj.com/content/346/bmj.f794

 

And another quote: 

 

 

 

Quote:
The increased risk of narcolepsy after vaccination with ASO3 adjuvanted pandemic A/H1N1 2009 vaccine indicates a causal association, consistent with findings from Finland. Because of variable delay in diagnosis, however, the risk might be overestimated by more rapid referral of vaccinated children.

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#18 of 27 Old 03-20-2013, 02:21 PM
 
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Taxi I've already posted the only source I'm going to. Feel free to draw your own conclusions
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#19 of 27 Old 03-20-2013, 02:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Escaping View Post

Isn't the flu shot different from year to year and varies from one country to the other?

 

In Canada in 2009 there was a separate vaccine for H1N1.

 

Yes it does/can. Often the base is the same, just the virus is changed (ie. same adjuvants, preservatives etc., new inactivated virus). 2009 was a special case because of the concerns of the possibility of an H1N1 pandemic. In the UK we also had two separate vaccines that year (both of which I got as I was pregnant at the time and concerned about reports of the severity of flu in pregnant women). 

 

PS. My son is fine. No allergies. No autism (he's over 3 now). No chronic illnesses. Doesn't sleep at night by himself very well (prefer's Mummy's bed), but I don't think I can blame that on vaccines! ;)  


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#20 of 27 Old 03-20-2013, 03:16 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

Taxi I've already posted the only source I'm going to. Feel free to draw your own conclusions

I'm mystified as to why you refuse to answer a simple request.

 

You were the one who said that "they" (whoever "they" are ) had determined that it was the adjuvant in Pandemrix that caused the narcolepsy cases.

 

I would like to know WHO determined that it was specifically the adjuvant in Pandemrix (and not some other ingredient or combination of ingredients) that had caused the narcolepsy cased, and HOW they came to that conclusion.

 

I'm just asking you to provide both a link and a quote so that I can better understand this.

 

If you feel that you have already provided exactly the information I'm requesting, perhaps you could be so kind as to copy and paste it into a reply?

 

thanks so much!

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#21 of 27 Old 03-20-2013, 03:24 PM
 
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Taxi - you don't need to pick on Rrrrrachel - I provided it again. Did you read it?

Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

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#22 of 27 Old 03-20-2013, 04:20 PM
 
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Does anyone know if a study exists where they focus on only kids with autism?

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#23 of 27 Old 03-21-2013, 02:00 PM
 
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I thought it might be helpful to repost my question, and the responses from the pro-vax side, in order of posting.

 

My new responses on this particular post are highlighted in blue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

Nothing to do with the flu vaccine used here in the US?  Are you certain?  Did you research every ingredient, every possible source of contamination, every lab that was used, to be sure that none of the vaccines share ANYTHING?

Have they determined exactly what ingredient in Pandemrix was responsible for the narcolepsy reactions?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post


Pretty sure they've concluded it was the adjuvant.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

Could you please post a source?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

Taxi - I'm answering for Rrrrrachel. 

 

Here's a link: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/31/pandemrix-narcolepsy-swine-flu-shot-britain_n_2588859.html

 

Here's a quote:

 

 

 

 

Here's another link (to Elizabeth ******'s published article): http://www.bmj.com/content/346/bmj.f794

 

And another quote: 

 

 

 

 

 
 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

Nothing to do with the flu vaccine used here in the US?  Are you certain?  Did you research every ingredient, every possible source of contamination, every lab that was used, to be sure that none of the vaccines share ANYTHING?

Have they determined exactly what ingredient in Pandemrix was responsible for the narcolepsy reactions?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post


Pretty sure they've concluded it was the adjuvant.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

Could you please post a source?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

I already did.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

Could you please provide a link plus a quote, so we know exactly who concluded that it was the adjuvant, exactly which adjuvant it was, and exactly how they determined this.

 

thank you.

 

 

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

Taxi - I'm answering for Rrrrrachel. 

 

Here's a link: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/31/pandemrix-narcolepsy-swine-flu-shot-britain_n_2588859.html

 

 

 

This does not say anywhere that they determined that it was the adjuvant itself that was responsible for the narcolepsy cases. -T

 

 

Here's another link (to Elizabeth ******'s published article): http://www.bmj.com/content/346/bmj.f794

 

This study does not say anywhere that they determined that it was the adjuvant itself that was responsible for the narcolepsy cases. -T

 

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

Taxi I've already posted the only source I'm going to. Feel free to draw your own conclusions

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

I'm mystified as to why you refuse to answer a simple request.

 

You were the one who said that "they" (whoever "they" are ) had determined that it was the adjuvant in Pandemrix that caused the narcolepsy cases.

 

I would like to know WHO determined that it was specifically the adjuvant in Pandemrix (and not some other ingredient or combination of ingredients) that had caused the narcolepsy cased, and HOW they came to that conclusion.

 

I'm just asking you to provide both a link and a quote so that I can better understand this.

 

If you feel that you have already provided exactly the information I'm requesting, perhaps you could be so kind as to copy and paste it into a reply?

 

thanks so much!

 

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

Taxi - you don't need to pick on Rrrrrachel - I provided it again. Did you read it?
 
 
 
 
Yes, psm, I read it.  
 
First of all, I did not pick on Rrrrachel, and I resent your accusation.  I asked her for a direct answer to my question (which was based
 
on HER assertion)., and I did not  receive  one.  So I asked again.  Twice.  And very nicely, too.
 
 
For the sake of clarity, I'll repeat my question:
 
 
I would like to know WHO determined that it was specifically the adjuvant in Pandemrix (and not some other ingredient or
 
combination of ingredients) that had caused the narcolepsy cased, and HOW they came to that conclusion.  (bolded for ease of
 
understanding)
 
 
 
 
 
Neither of the links you provided pinpointed the adjuvant itself as the cause of the narcolepsy cases.  In fact, they did not pinpoint any
 
ingredients at all. The HuffPo article only mentions that the vaccine was Pandemrix (which we already knew.  It does not mention
 
which ingredient or ingredients may have been a cause.  The second link, the study, describes the vaccine as "ASO3 adjuvanted pandemic A/H1N1 2009 vaccine."
 
They don't even pretend to have proved that it was the adjuvant that caused the narcolepsy cases.  In fact, they don't mention whether they were even looking at individual ingredients or combinations of ingredients as potential causes.
 
So my question remains unanswered, and Rrrrrachel and prosciencemum are either providing links that don't answer my
question, or refusing to answer at all.  
 
Yep, business as usual around here.
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#24 of 27 Old 03-21-2013, 02:10 PM
 
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As far as I'm aware the main thing different about this flu vaccine and others which are not linked to increased rates of narcolepsy is the adjuvant.

So if its all the same except the adjuvant them the culprit has got to be the adjuvant.

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#25 of 27 Old 03-21-2013, 06:39 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

As far as I'm aware the main thing different about this flu vaccine and others which are not linked to increased rates of narcolepsy is the adjuvant.

So if its all the same except the adjuvant them the culprit has got to be the adjuvant.

How very unscientific of you.

 

The culprit may be the adjuvant.  Perhaps it is even very likely that it is the adjuvant.

 

Or it may be a contamination issue; perhaps one of the vaccine ingredients came from a contaminated batch.

 

Or it may be a multifactorial issue: an ingredient in the vaccine combined with another environmental exposure, perhaps something some of the children were eating, or a particular cleaning spray used at home, or in the pediatrician's office, or some other environmental exposure.

 

Or it could have been an ingredient in the vaccine combined with another environmental exposure combined with a genetic predisposition.

 

Or it could have been an ingredient in the vaccine combined with a defective batch of infant formula, or a defective batch of children's multivitamins, perhaps causing vitamin D deficiency that would be a recipe for disaster with this particular vaccine.

 

There are all kinds of possibilites.  That's why I asked the question (which neither you nor Rrrrrachel answered), "Who determined that it was specifically the adjuvant in Pandemrix that caused the narcolepsy cases, and how did they come to that conclusion."

 

But in any case, what we have here is a vaccine that caused some dangerous, life-changing disorders--and they have not yet stated what in the vaccine is the cause, despite Rrrrrachel's assertion, and your assumption.   

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#26 of 27 Old 03-21-2013, 06:43 PM
 
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I didn't assert anything, taxi.
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#27 of 27 Old 03-21-2013, 06:55 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

I didn't assert anything, taxi.

 Rrrrrachel you must have forgotten you posted this- 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post


Pretty sure they've concluded it was the adjuvant.
 

looks clear to me! ADJUVANT was asserted according to Rrrrrachel and also prosciencemum

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

So if its all the same except the adjuvant them the culprit has got to be the adjuvant.
 

 

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Want to join? Just ask me!

 

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