Anthrax Trials to Begin in Children - Mothering Forums
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#1 of 46 Old 03-19-2013, 03:05 PM - Thread Starter
 
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http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/19/us-anthrax-vaccine-children-idUSBRE92I03220130319

 

 

 

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A presidential ethics panel has opened the door to testing an anthrax vaccine on children as young as infants, bringing an angry response from critics who say the children would be guinea pigs in a study that would never help them and might harm them.

 

 

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"We have to get this precisely right," panel Chair Amy Gutmann, president of the University of Pennsylvania, said at a news conference. "Many significant steps would have to be taken" before a pediatric anthrax vaccine trial could be considered, she said. But she added that it is important "to develop the knowledge needed to save children's lives" in the event of an anthrax attack.

^^ interpreted as, 'some kids will have to be sacrificed'

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#2 of 46 Old 03-19-2013, 03:15 PM
 
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This seems like a slightly misleading headline. Sounds like no trials are actually planned.
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#3 of 46 Old 03-19-2013, 03:43 PM
 
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Even if no trials are currently planned, it makes me uncomfortable that the possibility is being discussed.
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#4 of 46 Old 03-19-2013, 03:53 PM
 
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I don't know. How I felt about a trial would depend a lot on the details, but with the scenario listed in the article I can see why they're discussing it.
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#5 of 46 Old 03-19-2013, 04:11 PM
 
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These articles creep me out as much as those that every once in a while bring up the fact that FEMA is manufacturing millions of plastic coffins for some reason. 

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#6 of 46 Old 03-19-2013, 04:45 PM
 
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They weren't coffins they were grave liners.
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#7 of 46 Old 03-19-2013, 05:26 PM
 
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Those who are involved in the decision-making process, if they have kids ... are - their - kids going to be in the initial group(s) that test this vax?


Pro rights (vaxes).
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#8 of 46 Old 03-19-2013, 06:08 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

They weren't coffins they were grave liners.

 

I've heard, but I still don't know if I quite buy the explanation lol... they claim that because people buy them in advance they want to pay today's price so they store them for decades.... really? They've never heard of investments? Anhoo... I dunno what the %&$# they're for but still creeped out by them...

 

I'll stop derailing the thread now 2whistle.gif

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#9 of 46 Old 03-19-2013, 08:15 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MamaMunchkin View Post

Those who are involved in the decision-making process, if they have kids ... are - their - kids going to be in the initial group(s) that test this vax?

Good question.

 

Honestly, I'm wondering if Rrrrrachel and prosciencemum will volunteer their children for the trials.

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#10 of 46 Old 03-20-2013, 05:24 AM
 
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We're not even close to having actual trials. This was basically a thought experiment where they said the trials could be done in an ethical way.

I'm not even sure I support actual trials, as I already said. However given the scenario of being in the middle of a terrorist attack involving anthrax and having to decide whether to treat children without any knowledge of safe dosing or what to expect, or not to treat them and leave them exposed, I can see why they're discussing it.
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#11 of 46 Old 03-20-2013, 05:31 AM
 
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And given that once the 'go ahead' is given to start such trials, there'd be little parents can do to stop said trials, I can see why *we* are discussing it.
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#12 of 46 Old 03-20-2013, 05:41 AM
 
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But the go ahead hasn't been given. And I seriously doubt they're going to round kids up and force then to participate, so why you can't stop the study you can keep your kid from participating, which basically makes the study none of your business.

It's certainly an interesting topic for discussion.
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#13 of 46 Old 03-20-2013, 05:57 AM
 
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Glad we agree it's an interesting topic for discussion.

I'm surprised that, given the herd immunity threads, that you feel that what happens to a child who is not mine is none of my business. That would make the herd immunity arguments pointless, because what happens to those who cannot be vaccinated none of my business, too. But that is off topic.


Feel free, folks, to post a link to this thread on every herd immunity thread, so future readers can read this, too.
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#14 of 46 Old 03-20-2013, 06:25 AM
 
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I've never ever claimed that herd immunity is the reason someone should vaccinate on the individual level.
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#15 of 46 Old 03-20-2013, 08:54 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

I've never ever claimed that herd immunity is the reason someone should vaccinate on the individual level.

It's very easy to see your claims on herd immunity - you have pages of them, just do a google and they all pop up "mothering herd immunity Rrrrrachel"


 

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#16 of 46 Old 03-20-2013, 09:04 AM
 
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Great. So quote me saying I think it's the reason an individual should vaccinate.
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#17 of 46 Old 03-20-2013, 05:43 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

I've never ever claimed that herd immunity is the reason someone should vaccinate on the individual level.

except in the case of your child-right?

 

you have said - As I've said many times, the primary reason I vaccinated my child was to protect MY CHILD, the documented and observable benefits of things like herd immunity to society were secondary.

 

Is you child part of the herd? or not?

 

 

IF not is that because herd immunity isn't real?


 

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#18 of 46 Old 03-20-2013, 06:01 PM
 
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Yes herd immunity is real. I consider it the icing on the cake, but it's not why I vaccinate my child and is not the reason I think anyone else should, either. I think if your main reason for vaccinating your kid is herd immunity that's a little odd.
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#19 of 46 Old 03-21-2013, 03:15 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

Yes herd immunity is real. I consider it the icing on the cake, but it's not why I vaccinate my child and is not the reason I think anyone else should, either. I think if your main reason for vaccinating your kid is herd immunity that's a little odd.

You can't have one without being part of the other-IMO, so it's the same thing IMO and that of others.

This is not the platform for a critique on your posts on this (there are numerous ones!), others can see for themselves and draw their own conclusions too-IMO


 

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#20 of 46 Old 03-21-2013, 04:49 AM
 
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Well that's your opinion, not mine.
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#21 of 46 Old 03-21-2013, 05:46 AM
 
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Anthrax can be treated by administering antibiotics or in severe cases there is an inhaleable monoclonial antibody treatment.

 

What they are discussing, these clinical experiments trials on children is ridiculous.

 

Do you understand the current BioThrax vaccine is contains 1200 mcg of Al in EACH injection (The highest mcgs in any vaccine currently licensed in the US). Currently the recommendation is a 3 shot-injection schedule at 0, 3, 6 months with two boosters at 12 and 18 mos following initiation of series....with ANNUAL BOOSTERS following that.

 

Ahhhhh, now we see why the push for trials....

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#22 of 46 Old 03-21-2013, 06:00 AM
 
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I think the only reason theyre considering it is because of the possibility of a major attack, in which case the supply of things like antibiotics and antibodies may be limited.

I'm not sure if your last line is supposed it be sarcastic or not, but yeah, that kind of is why they are discussing the ethics of trials, to sort out dosage, etc.

I still think all of this outrage is kind of premature. There aren't even any studies proposed and there are still major hurdles before there could be.
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#23 of 46 Old 03-21-2013, 07:06 AM
 
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In a country like the US the supply of antibiotics seems just fine. And if it was a concern, why not stockpile appropriate antibiotics? Much cheaper than stockpiling Tamiflu. Just saying....

 

The trials make absolutely no sense, were halted now anyways, and all you really need to do is follow the money. The company that makes the vaccine only has this product and nothing else. And guess who they donate money to! That is not sarcastic in the least, it's just so painfully obvious, there isn't even an effort to pretend otherwise.

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#24 of 46 Old 03-21-2013, 10:22 AM
 
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...premature...hmm, maybe - i guess we could wait until a clinical trial is initiated and children are needless endangered.

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I believe forming an opinion early on and being vocal about is absolutely benefical - especially when it effects children

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#25 of 46 Old 03-21-2013, 04:30 PM
 
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I don't think they are really worried about running out of antibiotics.  The problem is that even with prompt treatment, anthrax, the worst sort, still has a pretty high mortality rate.  Nearly half the people in the Anthrax attacks in the US a little over a decade ago died. 

 

It makes sense to me that the people responsible for ensuring we are prepared for these possible attacks want to do everything they can to ensure that is the case. 

 

However, I really don't think it's ever going to happen.  Trials of malaria vaccines in children in areas with a lot of malaria can be justified by the high expectation that the vaccine will benefit the child.  While anthrax attacks may be a real threat, the risk to any particular child is so low right now that it is extremely unlikely for that particular child will be exposed that it is nearly certain that the anthrax vaccine being tested will be of no benefit to that particular child.  

 

Am I the only one experiencing deja vu from this?  

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#26 of 46 Old 03-21-2013, 06:45 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I don't think they are really worried about running out of antibiotics.  The problem is that even with prompt treatment, anthrax, the worst sort, still has a pretty high mortality rate.  Nearly half the people in the Anthrax attacks in the US a little over a decade ago died. 

 

It makes sense to me that the people responsible for ensuring we are prepared for these possible attacks want to do everything they can to ensure that is the case. 

 

However, I really don't think it's ever going to happen.  Trials of malaria vaccines in children in areas with a lot of malaria can be justified by the high expectation that the vaccine will benefit the child.  While anthrax attacks may be a real threat, the risk to any particular child is so low right now that it is extremely unlikely for that particular child will be exposed that it is nearly certain that the anthrax vaccine being tested will be of no benefit to that particular child.  

 

Am I the only one experiencing deja vu from this?  

i know of one case in my state where the old lady died after aquiring inhalation anthrax, and it was not diagnosed in time to receive proper meds. How many others did that happen to, and did not receive meds in time and died due to that instead of the anthrax itself?  I don't know... i just know of this lady in my state, not too  far from where i live. 

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#27 of 46 Old 03-21-2013, 11:19 PM
 
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Quote:
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I don't think they are really worried about running out of antibiotics.  The problem is that even with prompt treatment, anthrax, the worst sort, still has a pretty high mortality rate.  Nearly half the people in the Anthrax attacks in the US a little over a decade ago died. 


It makes sense to me that the people responsible for ensuring we are prepared for these possible attacks want to do everything they can to ensure that is the case. 


However, I really don't think it's ever going to happen.  Trials of malaria vaccines in children in areas with a lot of malaria can be justified by the high expectation that the vaccine will benefit the child.  While anthrax attacks may be a real threat, the risk to any particular child is so low right now that it is extremely unlikely for that particular child will be exposed that it is nearly certain that the anthrax vaccine being tested will be of no benefit to that particular child.  


Am I the only one experiencing deja vu from this?  


Five out of 22 is not even close to half. You're exaggerating.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_anthrax_attacks
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#28 of 46 Old 03-22-2013, 05:35 AM
 
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In most cases, early treatment with antibiotics can cure cutaneous anthrax. Even if untreated, 80 percent of people who become infected with cutaneous anthrax do not die. Gastrointestinal anthrax is more serious because between one-fourth and more than half of cases lead to death. Inhalation anthrax is much more severe. In 2001, about half of the cases of inhalation anthrax ended in death.

http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/anthrax/needtoknow.asp
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#29 of 46 Old 03-22-2013, 06:41 AM
 
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Both my link and yours, Rrrrachel, state that 22 people were infected. Since the cdc didn't provide any other numbers, like the number who inhaled the anthrax, perhaps you can find a source which provides more information, and can prove the "about half" reference.
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#30 of 46 Old 03-22-2013, 07:30 AM
 
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If you read the wiki article you posted, pek, it states:

 

Quote:

At least 22 people developed anthrax infections, with 11 of these the especially life-threatening inhalational variety. Five died of inhalational anthrax

 

5 of 11 is close to half.


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