Vaccinating pregnant women "halves the risk of pertussis in infants' first four months" - A critique by Dr Suzanne Humphries - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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#61 of 83 Old 03-25-2013, 09:20 AM
 
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Did I use the term vaccine efficacy? I thought I was clear that I was describing the percentage of people the vaccine protected. I tried to avoid using vaccine efficacy because I know it canbe misleading (people typically think of it as the percentage of people who are protected, but taxi is right, it's really the percentage reduction attributed to the vaccine.)
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#62 of 83 Old 03-25-2013, 09:25 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

Did I use the term vaccine efficacy? I thought I was clear that I was describing the percentage of people the vaccine protected. I tried to avoid using vaccine efficacy because I know it canbe misleading (people typically think of it as the percentage of people who are protected, but taxi is right, it's really the percentage reduction attributed to the vaccine.)

The numbers you used were the efficacy numbers.

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#63 of 83 Old 03-25-2013, 09:28 AM
 
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Were they? I thought I described them as the percentage of people thevaccine effectively protects.
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#64 of 83 Old 03-25-2013, 09:29 AM
 
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Sorry, double post. I'll use it to post a study from 2011 showing that the pertussis vaccine had a ve of 86% for people who had all five doses.

https://idsa.confex.com/idsa/2011/webprogram/Paper31590.html
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#65 of 83 Old 03-25-2013, 10:23 AM
 
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#66 of 83 Old 03-25-2013, 11:21 AM
 
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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

Mirzam - do I interpret correctly from your comments about original antigenic sin that you do not believe the pertussis vaccine does anything to prevent pertussis? How do you then explain that vaccinated children are less likely to catch pertussis? Is that your inconvenient truth?

 

Vaccinated population less likely to ‘catch’ pertussis??!

 

I have two major issues with this.

 

One: To understanding how incorrect this is, we must understanding an important aspect of illness: clinical stages of disease.

 

Pertussis is an acute infection of the upper respiratory tract caused by Bordetella bacteria (B. pertussis and in some cases B. parapertussis) which last approximately 6 week and has three clinical stages.

 

The initial stage resembles a common cold with a mild cough, followed by the second (paroxysmal) stage that is characterized by the repetitive episodes of coughing fits and the typical “whoop” cough. The final stage lasts 1-2 weeks and marks a decrease in the frequency and severity of the cough.[2]

 

 

It has been recurrently documented (and touted as a benefit to getting vaccinated) that infected vaccinated individuals will suffer a milder, nonspecific form of the disease. Specifically, infections in the vaccinated population cause nonspecific symptoms.

 

Vaccinated adolescents and adults become reservoirs for silent infection and transmitters. [3][4][5][6][7][8]

 

Second: the vaccine increases parapertussis infection

 

There are 3 species of Bordetella bacteria that are human pathogens, however only the B. Pertussis and B. Parapertussis can cause whopping cough in humans.

 

The pertussis (aP) vaccination not only makes a person more susceptible to B. parapertussis infection but it enhances the performance of the pathogen. [9]

 

 

Research has illustrated a 40-fold increase in B. parapertussis lung colony-forming units after vaccination of aP injections.[9]

 

A little side note about evolution here (because evolution is neat to learn about)- because of the O-antigen that is found only on B. parapertussis, immunity derived from B. pertussis does not protect against infection by B. parapertussis. The parapertussis bacteria are free to colonize a host's lungs without being subject to attack by previous pertussis antibodies. This particular finding suggests that B. parapertussis evolved in a host population that had already developed immunity to B. pertussis, where being able to evade B. pertussis immunity was an advantage.[10]

 

If I was a gambling woman, I would bet that we will be subjected to a parapertussis vaccine within the next 8 years.

 

 

References for your use:

 

[1] Weiss, A., Patton, A., Millen, S., Chang, S.j., Ward, J., Bernstein, D. Acellular pertussis vaccines and complement killing of bordetella pertussis. American Society for Microbiology (Infection and Immunity). Vol 72(12): 7346-7351. Dec 2004.

 

[2] WHO meeting on case definition of pertussis: Geneva 10-11 January, 1991. Geneva: World Health Organization, 1991:4-5 (issue no. MIN/EPI/PERT/91.1)

 

[3]Jenkinson D. Duration of effectiveness of pertussis vaccine: evidence from 10-year community study. BMJ 1988;296:612-4.

 

[4] Christie CD, Marx ML, Marchant CD, Reising SF. The 1993 epidemic of pertussis in Cincinnati: resurgence of disease in a highly immunized population of children. N Engl J Med 1994;331:16-21.

 

[5] Rosenthal S, Strebel P, Cassiday P, Sanden G, Brusuelas K, Wharton M. Pertussis infection in young adults during the 1993 outbreak in Chicago. J Infect Dis 1995;171:1650-2.

 

[6] De Melker HE, Conyn Van Spaendonck MA, Rumke HC, van Wijngaarden JK, Mooi FR, Schellekens JF. Pertussis in the Netherlands: an outbreak despite high levels of immunization with whole-cell vaccine. Emerg Infect Dis 1997;3:175-8.

 

[7] Yaari E, Yafe-Zimerman Y, Scwartz SB, Slater PE, Shvartzman P, Andoren N, et al. Clinical manifestations of Bordetella pertussis infection in immunized children and young adults. Chest 1999;115:1254-8

 

[8] I. Srugo, D. Benilevi, R. Madeb, S. Shapiro, T. Shohat, E. Somekh, Y. Rimmar, V. Gershtein, R. Gershtein, E. Marva, and N. Lahat. Pertussis Infection in Fully Vaccinated Children in Day-Care Centers, Israel. Emerging Infectious Diseases. Vol 6(5): 526-529. Sept/Oct 2000 PDF: http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/6/5/pdfs/00-0512.pdf

 

 [9] Gráinne H. Long, Alexia T. Karanikas, Eric T. Harvill, Andrew F. Read and Peter J. Hudson. Acellular pertussis vaccination facilitates Bordetella parapertussis infection in a rodent model of bordetellosis. Proceedings of the Royal Society (Biological Sciences). Vol 277 (1690):2017-2025. Jul 2010

 

[10] Wolfe D, Goebel E, Bjornstad O, Restif O, Harvil E (2007). "The O Antigen Enables Bordetella parapertussis To Avoid Bordetella pertussis-Induced Immunity". Infection and Immunity 75 (10): 4972–9. doi:10.1128/IAI.00763-07. PMC 2044517. PMID 17698566. //www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2044517/.

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#67 of 83 Old 03-25-2013, 11:29 AM
 
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It does look like immunity is waning, meaning he protection doesn't last as long as we thought. That is NOT the same as saying vaccination "does nothing." There's something like an 8 fold greater risk of infection for unvaccinated vs vaccinated

 

This is exactly what should a red flag when we are experiencing such high numbers of transmission with such high vaccination rates.

 

The vaccinated population is walking around thinking they have a cold, going to the market and the bank and sending kids to school, when in fact THEY HAVE NONSECIFIC SYMPTOMS of pertussis infection.

 

This is exactly why we should NOT be vaccinating new moms. The vaccine does NOT protect against transmission, if anything it is proliferating it! (see earlier post with references)

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#68 of 83 Old 03-25-2013, 11:39 AM
 
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It does prevent transmission.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12706669

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22119924

But it fades, seems like starting around ten it really starts to drop off?
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#69 of 83 Old 03-25-2013, 11:51 AM
 
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It does prevent transmission.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12706669

well not according to the CDC 

 

http://www.cdc.gov/pertussis/about/causes-transmission.html

 

Pertussis vaccines are very effective in protecting you from disease but no vaccine is 100% effective. If pertussis is circulating in the community, there is a chance that a fully vaccinated person, of any age, can catch this very contagious disease.

 

Once you got, you can spread it!

 

also-

 

http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...act/104/6/1381


Quote:
"...all pertussis vaccines tend to modify duration and severity of disease rather than completely preventing illness."

ww.mothering.com/community/t/1238577/does-or-does-not-pertussis-vaccine-prevent-transmission


 

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#70 of 83 Old 03-25-2013, 11:55 AM
 
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That's not at all what the CDC says.
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#71 of 83 Old 03-25-2013, 11:58 AM
 
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well not according to the CDC 

http://www.cdc.gov/pertussis/about/causes-transmission.html

Pertussis vaccines are very effective in protecting you from disease but no vaccine is 100% effective. If pertussis is circulating in the community, there is a chance that a fully vaccinated person, of any age, can catch this very contagious disease.


Once you got, you can spread it!

also-

http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...act/104/6/1381




Quote:



"...all pertussis vaccines tend to modify duration and severity of disease rather than completely preventing illness."



ww.mothering.com/community/t/1238577/does-or-does-not-pertussis-vaccine-prevent-transmission

Where does that quote come from? The aap article or the mothering link?
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#72 of 83 Old 03-25-2013, 12:09 PM
 
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Thank you for the link Rrrrachel.

 

I have admit, from the banter back in forth in several other posts, I was apprehensive of what might be directed toward me for posting here.

 

The study you present, completed in 1993 outside of the US, consisted mainly (94%) of children vaccinated with the whole-cell vaccine.

 

I’m curious to see if there is research touting the benefits of reduced transmission via the aP vaccine.

 

Children in the United States receive five doses of diptheria, tetanus and (aP) pertussis (DTaP) vaccine before the age of 7, yet duration and effectiveness protection is unknown.[1]

 

This rate of exacerbations has not changed, even after the introduction of mass vaccination – a fact that indicates the vaccine does not prevent transmission of the causative agent (B. pertussis) within the population [2]

 

Something that is becoming more evident and important in understanding why the vaccine is much less effective then believed is that clinical efficacy trials of the (aP) pertussis vaccines did not yield any correlation between antibody levels and protection against pertussis.[3]

 

The mechanisms of vaccine-induced immunity remain elusive. [3]

 

Here is the where we need to do some thinking my friends - despite over 50 years of this population-wide vaccination, whooping cough incidence is on the rise.[4]

 

 

 

 

[1] [14] Nicola P. Klein, M.D., Ph.D., Joan Bartlett, M.P.H., M.P.P., Ali Rowhani-Rahbar, M.D., M.P.H., Ph.D., Bruce Fireman, M.A., and Roger Baxter, M.D.Waning Protection after Fifth Dose of Acellular Pertussis Vaccine in Children. The New England Journal of Medicine. Sept 13, 2012. 367:1012-1019.

 

[2] Ori Hochwald, Ellen Bamberger and Issaac Srugo. The Return of Pertussis: Who is Responsible? What Can Be Done? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16805225

[3] Hewlett, Erik. Pertussis: current concepts of pathogenesis and prevention. Pediatric Infectious Disease Journal. Vol 16(4): S78-S84. Apr 1997

 

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#73 of 83 Old 03-25-2013, 12:12 PM
 
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Where does that quote come from? The aap article or the mothering link?

how about you try reading all of the links I provided - I provided them for a reason eyesroll.gif


 

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#74 of 83 Old 03-25-2013, 12:27 PM
 
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Serenbat – I believe that link does not work properly (at least it did not in my case when I clicked on it)

 

Rrrrrachel, here try this http://journals.lww.com/pidj/Fulltext/2005/05001/Duration_of_Immunity_Against_Pertussis_After.11.aspx

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#75 of 83 Old 03-25-2013, 12:46 PM
 
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I didn't see it in the aap article, but I could only access the beginning, and the mothering link doesn't work.

Why can't you just have a conversation without being so nasty?
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#76 of 83 Old 03-25-2013, 12:59 PM
 
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I didn't see it in the aap article, but I could only access the beginning, and the mothering link doesn't work.

Why can't you just have a conversation without being so nasty?

because you are so rude!

 

why does anyone provide links? they are meant to all be looked at

 

 

all you had to do was say you could not open it up- I can copy and paste it and it opened right up - I don't know why in this format it did not 

 

http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1238577/does-or-does-not-pertussis-vaccine-prevent-transmission


 

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#77 of 83 Old 03-25-2013, 01:02 PM
 
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Asking you what link it came from isn't rude.
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#78 of 83 Old 03-25-2013, 01:25 PM
 
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how about you try reading all of the links I provided - I provided them for a reason eyesroll.gif

Well the quote you have in your post does not come from the page listed immediately above it.

Edited to clarify: I see that you took it from another's post on a different mothering thread. Why not just list the link originally provided instead of making people hunt and search for it - seems kinda childish to me.
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#79 of 83 Old 03-25-2013, 01:30 PM
 
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because you are so rude!

why does anyone provide links? they are meant to all be looked at


all you had to do was say you could not open it up- I can copy and paste it and it opened right up - I don't know why in this format it did not 

http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1238577/does-or-does-not-pertussis-vaccine-prevent-transmission


I searched the link listed both above and below the quote you copied and did not find it on either page.
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#80 of 83 Old 03-26-2013, 05:53 AM
 
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http://www.pediatricsdigest.mobi/content/104/6/1381.short

 

"The second is that all pertussis vaccines tend to modify
duration and severity of disease rather than completely preventing illness"

 

The science and fiction of pertussis vaccines. Pediatrics. 1999

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#81 of 83 Old 04-03-2013, 02:32 PM
 
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I searched the link listed both above and below the quote you copied and did not find it on either page.

Serenbat I see you haven't returned to this thread - just wondering if you had a chance to find the source of the quotes you provided. I searched your original links and found no trace of your quotes. I even made sure to try the links in both of your posts with no luck.
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#82 of 83 Old 04-05-2013, 09:50 AM
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Mirzam, your post was removed due to namecalling. Please check your inbox for a PM from me. 

To everyone else posting, please reduce the bickering or you will lose your posting privileges. It's really getting to be too much so it will be easier for us to suspend you than to keep dealing with the bickering and flagged posts. 


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#83 of 83 Old 04-11-2013, 06:08 AM
 
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The source comes from this Letter to the Editor in Pediatrics

 

http://www.pediatricsdigest.mobi/content/104/6/1381.short

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