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#31 of 58 Old 04-01-2013, 09:29 AM
 
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There assumed safe after going through years of prelicensure trials and studies involving thousands of people, and then supported by several kinds of safety monitoring after reaching the market.
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#32 of 58 Old 04-01-2013, 11:25 AM
 
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There They are assumed safe after going through years of pharma-directed, pharma-funded, pharma-interpreted prelicensure trials and studies involving thousands of people who are carefully prescreened to weed out anyone who might react adversely, while those who do react adversely are dropped midway through the trial so that their reactions go unreported, and then supported by several kinds of safety monitoring, none of which attempt to actually recognize and report serious adverse reactions--they focus on things like redness and swelling-- after reaching the market.  In addition, many of the people recruited for these trials are from very poor and poorly educated communities around the world, whose residents don't know how to read, let alone realize what might constitute a delayed reaction to a vaccine.

Fixed that for you!  smile.gif

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#33 of 58 Old 04-01-2013, 11:49 AM
 
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How do they prescreen people to pick out those who won't have adverse reactions? How come they don't do that in the general population if it's so easy? 

 

You've missed out the post licensing monitoring of adverse affects through active monitoring of some people and also VAERS as an early warning system.

 

A lot of people (which includes me) think that a pharma-cover up on the scale you're suggesting is just not possible given the hundreds of thousands of doctors, medical professionals and scientists who would have to either be duped or implicated in the harming of children for it to happen....  


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#34 of 58 Old 04-01-2013, 11:59 AM
 
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How do they prescreen people to pick out those who won't have adverse reactions? How come they don't do that in the general population if it's so easy

 

You've missed out the post licensing monitoring of adverse affects through active monitoring of some people and also VAERS as an early warning system.

 

A lot of people (which includes me) think that a pharma-cover up on the scale you're suggesting is just not possible given the hundreds of thousands of doctors, medical professionals and scientists who would have to either be duped or implicated in the harming of children for it to happen....  

I think she is referring to the very well known fact that only healthy children/adults are included in clinical trials. Anyone who has any inkling of a health problem is excluded. I don't think it's unreasonable to have an issue with this considering vaccines are pushed on EVERYONE with all kinds of health problems. I would also feel pretty good making the assumption that a baby or even an adult with health problems may be more likely to have an adverse reaction to a vaccine - although I know there is no scientific proof of this because it's not being studied. 

 

yup

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#35 of 58 Old 04-01-2013, 12:10 PM
 
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I think she is referring to the very well known fact that only healthy children/adults are included in clinical trials. Anyone who has any inkling of a health problem is excluded. I don't think it's unreasonable to have an issue with this considering vaccines are pushed on EVERYONE with all kinds of health problems. I would also feel pretty good making the assumption that a baby or even an adult with health problems may be more likely to have an adverse reaction to a vaccine - although I know there is no scientific proof of this because it's not being studied. 

 

yup

Even more than that, Marnica.  Those with family history of vaccine reaction, autism, asthma, thyroid disease, seizure disorder, autoimmune disease, lupus, MS, celiac disease, etc.--basically, those who are more likely to have vaccine reactions, and who are more likely to be at risk for developing autism--, are excluded from trials.

 

Does anyone know whether they exclude people with mitochondrial disorders as well?

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#36 of 58 Old 04-01-2013, 12:33 PM
 
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A lot of people (which includes me) think that a pharma-cover up on the scale you're suggesting is just not possible given the hundreds of thousands of doctors, medical professionals and scientists who would have to either be duped or implicated in the harming of children for it to happen....  

i think big tobacco made the same kind of claims for many years-smoking did not cause lung cancer.  How many drs believed smoking was healthy and beneficial and promoted it back in the day? Many more than we can imagine... How long did big tobacco deny any correlation between smoking and lung cancer?   Many decades of denial.

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#37 of 58 Old 04-01-2013, 12:56 PM
 
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Oh good. Lets trot out tobacco again.

There was far more evidence showing tobacco was harmful, even back in the heyday, than there are for vaccines.
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#38 of 58 Old 04-01-2013, 01:15 PM
 
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Oh good. Lets trot out tobacco again.

There was far more evidence showing tobacco was harmful, even back in the heyday, than there are for vaccines.

well, back in the day (again) 

 

we (some of us do remember) we did not have all the information we do now and things were different, way different - let's talk vaccines, back in the day (pre 1986) children were injured (and not what we call autism now either) and you know, few knew about it - back in the day we did not have internet, and national news was consumed with a few other pressing stories, local papers also did not have that much in (those were the sources way back for getting news) and you know what - we tend to forget about these things................we forget that vaccine injuries happened and how they were dealt with, law suites did happen (everyone got sued because you didn't always know who made what vaccine) so you (if you were really fortunate to have some money or a lawyer willing to help that is!!) did try and bring this to the attention of others, settlements were made by vaccine manufactures

 

point being, some things do take time, tobacco took time and vaccines (IMO) will as well

 

here are some oldies - (this is just ONE example) but it's still revenant - IMO today 

http://articles.philly.com/1988-09-14/news/26233278_1_vaccine-manufacturers-brain-damage-drug-companies

dos anyone? http://dingo.sbs.arizona.edu/~sandiway/ling388p/WSJ9_040.txt

http://www.leagle.com/xmlResult.aspx?page=26&xmldoc=1989271116NJ155_1262.xml&docbase=CSLWAR2-1986-2006&SizeDisp=7

 

 

some times we look at years as ancient history when really they aren't that ancient and history does tend to repeat itself


 

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#39 of 58 Old 04-01-2013, 01:58 PM
 
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I agree that information is much easier to get now than it was in the 1980s and that vccine injuries do happen. I'm not sure what other point you're trying to make.
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#40 of 58 Old 04-01-2013, 01:59 PM
 
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 I'm not sure what other point you're trying to make.

oh, that fine! I know others do get it winky.gif


 

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#41 of 58 Old 04-01-2013, 08:06 PM
 
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Oh good. Lets trot out tobacco again.

There was far more evidence showing tobacco was harmful, even back in the heyday, than there are for vaccines.

Back in the heyday, eh?

 

REALLY, Rrrrrachel. Don't you ever admit when you are wrong?  

 

This was only 5 months ago:  http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505123_162-57555099/judge-orders-tobacco-companies-to-say-they-lied/

 

Judge Orders Tobbaco Companies to Say They Lied

"Each corrective ad is to be prefaced by a statement that a federal court has concluded that the defendant tobacco companies "deliberately deceived the American public about the health effects of smoking."

 

Gee.  Do we know any other companies that have deliberately deceived the American public about health effects??

 

"The corrective statements are part of a case the government brought in 1999 under the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations. Kessler ruled in that case in 2006 that the nation's largest cigarette makers concealed the dangers of smoking for decades…"

 

Only 19 years ago, the CEOs of the 7 largest tobacco manufacturers swore before US Congress that nicotine is not addictive:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQUNk5meJHs

 

Anybody reminded of the recent Congressional Hearings on autism??  Watch Colleen Boyle try to get out of answering the questions. (I guess that's better than outright lying--or is it?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDpkHEeCf3o

 

How about the 3:00 mark from the 2002 Congressional Hearings?  Watch Dr. Karen Midthun try to get out of answering the questions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=id-gGYQihaM

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#42 of 58 Old 04-01-2013, 08:27 PM
 
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Taxi what does this have to do with anything?
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#43 of 58 Old 04-01-2013, 10:00 PM
 
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Thank you for the info, Taximom. Dan Burton was great--he pressed Dr. Midthun to finally admit "We don't know one way or the other".


               "Those who are able to see beyond the shadows and lies of their culture will never be understood, let alone believed, by the masses."

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#44 of 58 Old 04-02-2013, 01:08 AM
 
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So the tobacco companies were lying 7 years ago - but almost all scientists did not agree with their point of view at that time (in fact for many years previous to that).

I think we can all agree large companies can act immorally (almost always seem to once they pass a certain size), but there are checks and balances and that they can act immorally doesn't mean they always get away with it. The tobacco companies didn't.....

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#45 of 58 Old 04-02-2013, 05:20 AM
 
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great links, Taxi and Serenbat, Thanks!

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#46 of 58 Old 04-02-2013, 05:35 AM
 
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I think we can all agree large companies can act immorally (almost always seem to once they pass a certain size), but there are checks and balances and that they can act immorally doesn't mean they always get away with it. The tobacco companies didn't.....

If people are sufficiently worried about ethics around Big. Pharm, they are not going to care (in a personal way) that it might get sorted out eventually.  They have to make decisions now.  

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#47 of 58 Old 04-02-2013, 07:52 AM
 
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but there are checks and balances and that they can act immorally doesn't mean they always get away with it. The tobacco companies didn't.....

This is what we are trying to do when we voice our concerns about vaccines. I don't think there are enough checks and balances, or those responsible might be working for both sides (think revolving door). The pharmaceutical companies have influence in our government, that's a sad fact. There are also a growing number of professionals who are questioning vaccine safety. There are many questions that are not going away, and will eventually need to be answered.

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#48 of 58 Old 04-02-2013, 08:35 AM
 
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So the tobacco companies were lying 7 years ago - but almost all scientists did not agree with their point of view at that time (in fact for many years previous to that).

I think we can all agree large companies can act immorally (almost always seem to once they pass a certain size), but there are checks and balances and that they can act immorally doesn't mean they always get away with it. The tobacco companies didn't.....


It took time and effort to make the changes to the tobacco companies. And there are similarities between that fight and the current vaccine fight. But maybe you need to be old enough to remember the tobacco fight to see the similarities.
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#49 of 58 Old 04-02-2013, 01:09 PM
 
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It took time and effort to make the changes to the tobacco companies. And there are similarities between that fight and the current vaccine fight. But maybe you need to be old enough to remember the tobacco fight to see the similarities.

That, and you need to care enough about vaccine injury victims to see beyond the propaganda.

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#50 of 58 Old 04-02-2013, 01:21 PM
 
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It took time and effort to make the changes to the tobacco companies. And there are similarities between that fight and the current vaccine fight. But maybe you need to be old enough to remember the tobacco fight to see the similarities.

What are the similarities?
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#51 of 58 Old 04-03-2013, 12:33 AM
 
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What do you think?

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#52 of 58 Old 04-03-2013, 09:01 AM
 
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I'm not sure that's why I asked.  shrug.gif

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#53 of 58 Old 04-03-2013, 09:07 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm not sure that's why I asked.  shrug.gif

 

Why do you expect people to do your work for you?  You obviously have time on your hands. shrug.gif


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#54 of 58 Old 04-03-2013, 09:13 AM
 
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I don't think it's unreasonable to ask people for more information when they make a claim. I can do my own research (and I do) but that won't tell me anything about what another poster thinks. There's value in both.
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#55 of 58 Old 04-03-2013, 09:15 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I don't think it's unreasonable to ask people for more information when they make a claim. I can do my own research (and I do) but that won't tell me anything about what another poster thinks. There's value in both.

It is when the information has already been provided.


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#56 of 58 Old 04-03-2013, 09:36 AM
 
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I don't think I'm reading the same threads as the rest of y'all lately . . .
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#57 of 58 Old 04-03-2013, 02:36 PM
 
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It is when the information has already been provided.

Where exactly was the information provided - I am unable to find a link that supports Pek64's claims in any of her posts.
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#58 of 58 Old 04-04-2013, 04:21 AM
 
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