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#31 of 51 Old 04-12-2013, 10:16 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

 

 

I think it's a strawman to claim that the entire "pro-vax" side ignores evidence of poor effectiveness and unacceptable side effects. . 

Just saying this is not enough.  I have seen pro-vaxxers defend flu shots, Hep. B for newborns, Gardasil, Chicken Pox vaccines.  If pro-vaxxers are ever critical of current vaccines, I have not seen it.  

 

I am actually very interested in which vaccines you think are less worthwhile….if I started a thread on "ranking vaccines" would you be game?


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#32 of 51 Old 04-12-2013, 10:21 AM
 
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I started a thread once about why the establishment is wary if criticising vaccinations. I got jumped on for that too.

Current vaccinations depends on where you live too. In the UK healthy kids are not recommended to get either the flu shot or chicken pox, and hep b is not given as standard at birth. We do vaccinate for meningitus strains which are not on the CDC list though.

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#33 of 51 Old 04-12-2013, 10:22 AM
 
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Repeat post

Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

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#34 of 51 Old 04-12-2013, 10:31 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I would still like to know if you would be willing to rank vaccine worthiness.  smile.gif

 

I vote we use the USA schedule, so we are all on the same page.  You can certainly say something like "hep B is 4th lousiest if given at birth, but bothers me less if given at other times"


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#35 of 51 Old 04-12-2013, 11:34 AM
 
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I think the problem is wed have different metrics. I'm not convinced any study has ever shown significant harm from vaccines, and I remain convinced the majority of kids will have vaccines with no significant side effect. So even if they can be avoided without significant harm (e.g. like chicken pox) I think they also don't do any harm to get them.

I don't see it as black and white as a single ranked list of how worthwhile each vaccine is to get. I think there are too many individual factors, which is also why I stand by the right if people to make their own informed choices.

Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

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#36 of 51 Old 04-12-2013, 12:36 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

 

 

I think it's a strawman to claim that the entire "pro-vax" side ignores evidence of poor effectiveness and unacceptable side effects. I do not agree that I do that for example, and I think the above demontrates that the US CDC and the UK NHS do not either.

 

I find it a little odd to say the pro-vax side is capable of being critical of vaccines, and then turn around and refuse to list which vaccines you think are worthy of criticism.  

 

FWIW - I do not think being critical of  a vaccine = do not use that vax (although it can)

Likewise, I do not think thinking vaccine a is worthier than others = vaccinate (although it can)

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There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#37 of 51 Old 04-12-2013, 02:50 PM
 
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I think it's worth remembering that people's views are often more varied than they seem here. Pointing out inaccuracies in a claim is not the same as touting a vaccine, let alone all vaccines, as flawless.

I know I've been critical to varying extents of some vaccines in poss before.

Regardless, lets not get sucked into some pro vs anti spitting match.
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#38 of 51 Old 04-12-2013, 04:16 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I think it's worth remembering that people's views are often more varied than they seem here. Pointing out inaccuracies in a claim is not the same as touting a vaccine, let alone all vaccines, as flawless.

I know I've been critical to varying extents of some vaccines in poss before.

Regardless, lets not get sucked into some pro vs anti spitting match.

I am not really interested in getting into a spitting match.  

 

I do think people's views may be more varied than in expressed here.  I also think it is very possible that the vaccines I question the most are the same vaccines a pro-vaxxers questions the most; and the vaccines I see the most merit in are the vaccine pro-vaxxers see the most merit in.  Or not.  There is only one way to find out.   Bring it.  I will play (I will even start the thread).  


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#39 of 51 Old 04-12-2013, 04:22 PM
 
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The phrases "I'm not interested in a spitting match" and "bring it" seem a little inconsistent.
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#40 of 51 Old 04-12-2013, 04:23 PM
 
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Thanks to BCG I have three huge ugly scars on my arms and constantly enlarged lymph nodes (common sideeffect of vaccine). In addition to BCG, we had to undergo annual Mantu tests and annual chest X-rays for many, many years.

 

 

Not all vaccines are effective, some are downright ineffective and are harmful. That is the fact that is freely acknowledged by the people in my country. And I totally do not get the vicious debates on this forum where pro-vaxxers refused to acknolwedge that. I think it is time we wake up and face reality.

I too suffered from chronic enlarged lymph nodes from the BCG vaccination recieved in the UK. It most certainly is a known adverse effect of the vaccine.


Rainbow.giftstillheart.gifsmile.gif

 

"If you find from your own experience that something is a fact and it contradicts what some authority has written down, then you must abandon the authority and base your reasoning on your own findings"~ Leonardo da Vinci

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#41 of 51 Old 04-12-2013, 04:25 PM - Thread Starter
 
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The phrases "I'm not interested in a spitting match" and "bring it" seem a little inconsistent.

lol and touche.

 

Still - would you be willing to rank vaccines?  


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#42 of 51 Old 04-12-2013, 04:30 PM
 
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No.
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#43 of 51 Old 04-12-2013, 06:37 PM
 
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Actually, I was looking at my records last night and I saw that I had FOUR BCG vaccines. Sure enough there are four scars on my arms. One is rather small, which is why I did not notice it..

To the "prof. scientist" author, I did not mean USA, I meant different country where BCG is still widely used. However, my doctor here in the States repeatedly told me that I should get my daughter vaccinated at one of the Travel Clinic for TB. Because I travel back forth multiple times during the year. She obviously had no clue about the vaccine's efficacy and the fact that here they do not vaccinate kids for it! Not to mention that the vaccine is not protecting from the most common form of TB in my region.

 

It is a common fact, that in countries with good sanitation and nutrition (Sweden, UK), lung form of TB is not as prevalent as in other countries and regions, where people live in overcrowded conditions and do not get adequate nutrition.

 

Another disease that is endemic in my region is polio, for which we were vaccinated and re-vaccinated multiple times ands the outbreaks were still happenning. I guess, some of us never developed immunity to polio either.

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#44 of 51 Old 04-12-2013, 07:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

I think the problem is wed have different metrics. I'm not convinced any study has ever shown significant harm from vaccines, and I remain convinced the majority of kids will have vaccines with no significant side effect. So even if they can be avoided without significant harm (e.g. like chicken pox) I think they also don't do any harm to get them.

I don't see it as black and white as a single ranked list of how worthwhile each vaccine is to get. I think there are too many individual factors, which is also why I stand by the right if people to make their own informed choices.

 

Millions of children today develop chronic diseases and cancer when they become young adults. How can you be absolutely convinced that vaccines have NOTHING to do with that? I do not think I can.  There are just way too many variables, which are impossible to research. I am totally convinced, that BCG has negative long-term effects on people's health but no long term studies (25-30 year studies of the same group of vaccinated) were conducted in my region. Does that mean that this vaccine does not have any long-term negative effects? Probably not.

Few studies funded by WHO  and conducted by scientists produced different and conflicting results. Whom should I believe than? Therefore I do not have a blind belief in all scientific reasearch. My friend is an MD and a medical researcher and he once told me that he was "disgusted" with one particular research regarding certain drug that the pharma reps were telling him about. He looked into it and found that the results of the clinical studies were "massaged" in order to make the drug to be more seen more effective that it realy was. Is this an occasion to celebate another scientific break-through? Probably not.

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#45 of 51 Old 04-12-2013, 07:13 PM
 
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My position is that all drugs (including vaxes) have side effects. There are some vaccines that I think are important to have (where positives outweigh negative side effects), but there are also some (like BCG and Polio) that are practically useless, in my region at least,  and perhaps are even harmful.

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#46 of 51 Old 04-12-2013, 07:27 PM
 
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Hey what do you know! That's pretty close to my opinion, too. I would imagine psm wouldn't consider it too far off from hers, either.
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#47 of 51 Old 04-13-2013, 10:59 PM
 
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Yeah I defintely agree all medicines (including vaccines) have potential side effects, and decisions have to be based on risk benefit analysis. I also think that analysis will depend on the individuals concerned, their other health issues (if any) and the environment they live in. It will also differ if public health is your aim, or individual health (they do often align, but not always). It's complicated, and cannot be represented by a single ranked list.

I was also asked why I'm so convinced vaccines are not contributing to chronic health. I have two reasons (1) I see that studies looking into this do not find links and (2) I think worrying about toxins in vaccines is like worrying about a drop of water getting you wet when you're swimming in the ocean (analogy stolen from Internet meme).

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#48 of 51 Old 04-14-2013, 08:08 AM - Thread Starter
 
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. It's complicated, and cannot be represented by a single ranked list.

 

I believe you are capable of making caveats and speaking in general. The mere accepting of the vaccine schedule means you can think in general.  If you were one of those people who cannot accept things "in general", you would never defend the vaccine schedule, as it is in general.  

 

I simply think you and rachel do not want to say anything negative about vaccines (either because you do not believe anything negative about vaccines, or it is contrary to your role of "defenders of vaccines") This is your prerogative - but it does make it hard for me to believe you when you say you can be critical of vaccines.  

 

ETA:  I am going to let the topic go.  You have answered, and I can accept a no.  Given the fact both you and rachel jumped to "no" pretty darn quickly tells me there is not much point in pursuing a thread to see if how we rank things would differ. Too bad - it might have made for a refreshing change to search for commonalities instead of always focusing on differences.   Ciao (and OT - but I hope the measles issue in Swansea does not get to close to where you live, as I know it would cause you concern)

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#49 of 51 Old 04-14-2013, 09:18 AM
 
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Kathy - I geniunely cannot understand why you care so much about getting a ranked list from Rrrrrachel and me. It feels like you are trying to make some big point with it.

I do not blindly defend the schedule. In fact there isn't a "the schedule" in my viewpoint since there are different schedules in different countries. And I have always viewed it as a recommendation based on getting the best public health for the country in question. So I fully accept it may not be the best individual choice. Can we agree on those things if you want some commonality?

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#50 of 51 Old 04-14-2013, 09:20 AM
 
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I am not overly concerned that my kids will get measles (though Swansea is a bit close) because the MMR has great efficacy for measles. Although I might speed up my youngest's booster (due in a couple of months) if it continues for more than a couple more weeks.

But thanks for the thought. smile.gif

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#51 of 51 Old 04-14-2013, 09:26 AM
 
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Kathy I've said negative things about vaccines in the past so I'm not sure why you feel tht way. I just don't see any point at all in making some kind of ranked list.
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