Measles in Wales & GAVI in Africa, linked? - Mothering Forums
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
#1 of 29 Old 04-14-2013, 09:37 AM - Thread Starter
 
dinahx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: earth
Posts: 2,144
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I can't help but post this thought I had. Recently I was doing a Twitter search on #measles. Every other post was about GAVI's HUGE M&R campaign in Africa. And in between were posts about Measles popping up here and there all over (NJ, UK).

 

So we are always told 'disease is just a plane ride away'. Measles Vax is live and known to shed (has happened to several friends, their child contracted actual measles from MMR and this is known to be possible). 

 

Do y'all think it could be at ALL possible that the giant M&R campaign in Africa triggered the Measles (since it is live, since it does shed, since there is some air travel between Wales and GAVI regions) outbreak in Wales? Does anyone have any statistics about how many are affected Vax vs. NonVax yet? It is a LOT of cases to be ALL NonVax . . . 

dinahx is offline  
#2 of 29 Old 04-14-2013, 09:39 AM - Thread Starter
 
dinahx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: earth
Posts: 2,144
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Just seems too temporally related to be a coincidence. I mean, when I first heard about the M&R campaign, I thought, hmmmm, I wonder if that will cause a Measles outbreak, and then LO there was a Measles outbreak! But I am leaving open the possibility that it is different strains or that it is just endemic . . . I'd love to see if anyone has looked into the specific strains to answer this question.

dinahx is offline  
#3 of 29 Old 04-14-2013, 10:22 AM
 
Dakotacakes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 152
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
No I don't think they are related in any way. I can't find any research that has ever shown a secondary transission from the MMR.

I haven't seen the stats on vaxed versus nonvaxed yet. That would likely come after the outbreak is under control if at all. It is a lot to be all unvaxed. However, it appears that there are a lot of unvaccinated children in the area (i read close to 6000 are not protected by vax now even after the massive vaccination push) so it wouldn't be that strange if they were all unvaxed. I know yesterday Wakefield is saying this outbreak proves him right, which I am trying to understand his reasoning and it frankly alludes me. I also am unfamiliar with the vaccination program in Wales.

I don't think I understand why if they are temporally linked it can't be a coincidence? That is the defintion of coincidence things happening at the same time that are unrelated. If things that happen temporally close HAVE to be related then there is no such thing as a coincidence.
Dakotacakes is offline  
#4 of 29 Old 04-14-2013, 10:29 AM
 
pers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 497
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Nope. 

 

We know measle can shed because of testing that has found virus particles.  There are no documented cases of anyone catching measles as a result of shedding though.  If it does happen, it is extremely rare.  If you know someone who believes there child currently has a case of measles as a result of a vaccine shedding, you should urge them to urge their doctor to have the child tested so as to be the first documented case. 

 

More importantly, why would a MMR vaccination campaign on a different continent have a greater effect on measle in Wales than the use of the MMR right there in Wales?  While MMR rates dropped, the majority of kids still got it, and if measles was going to be brought back by shedding it would have happened from kids vaccinated in Wales rather than from vaccines in Africa.  

pers is offline  
#5 of 29 Old 04-14-2013, 10:31 AM - Thread Starter
 
dinahx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: earth
Posts: 2,144
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Well all Wakefield said was that if the UK hadn't locked down the importation of single valent Measles Vax, then parents who were afeared of MMR would have gotten that, thus keeping vax rates for Measles high . . . Which was his idea all along, not that people would skip MMR, but that they would get them singlevalently . . . I still know lots of parents that wish for singlevalent M, M & R, but the trend is actually the opposite of what many parents want, penta & hexa valent vaccines . . . The US stopped having single valent vaxes for MMR available a few years ago . . .

 

I fully admit: I favor parent choice. When my SIL just went in to get my nephew's shots, she was told that ONLY medicaid patients in NC can now get DTaP (which is trivalent), that all privately insured patients now HAVE to get Pentacel. I have seen research showing Pentacel is more reactive, slightly than the components given singly (which I can dig around for if you want) but the point is, my SIL was NOT given a choice, just based on her insurance . . . It is important to preserve parent choice IMO, just like we are offered dye free Tylenol OTC, a parent should be able to say 'I want Daptacel, not Infanrix' or @ least: I want DTaP not Pentacel. SIL sure could have gone to a different provider, and hunted and pecked for DTaP instead, but like most parents, she didn't. I believe the only way for the Vax supply to ever be improved is Parent Choice and Parent Action. That is the only way it HAS ever been improved and now that all the companies are on the Honor System (no liablity), parent choice is more vital than ever.

 

I don't agree with everything he said, altho there were also some recent admissions by the UK Government concerning his research that I sorta noticed out of the corner of my eye.

 

Anyway, this is certainly not about Parent Choice or Wakefield. I see you don't think they could be related . . . I didn't say they absoultely were . . . I just said that I had wondered if an outbreak would follow and then it did . . .

 

By secondary transmission, do you mean, person contracts Measles from Vax and then passes it on (as in OPV)? I haven't seen that happen personally, but I know without a doubt that you can get actual clinical measles from the MMR (albeit attenuated) . . .

dinahx is offline  
#6 of 29 Old 04-14-2013, 10:36 AM - Thread Starter
 
dinahx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: earth
Posts: 2,144
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

ETA: My SIL is a practicing BSN, so she was certainly qualified to choose the Vax her child would receieve amoungst the different available brands & preparations . . . However actually exercising that proved totally impossible. /OT re: Parent Choice

dinahx is offline  
#7 of 29 Old 04-14-2013, 10:38 AM - Thread Starter
 
dinahx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: earth
Posts: 2,144
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

My idea was that because the GAVI campaign was massive in scope, it created a critical mass of shedding . . . I see that y'all don't agree and that secondary transmission (like with OPV) is not documented, so maybe it is just a coincidence. <3

dinahx is offline  
#8 of 29 Old 04-14-2013, 10:57 AM
 
pers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 497
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dinahx View Post

By secondary transmission, do you mean, person contracts Measles from Vax and then passes it on (as in OPV)?

 

 

Yes, this is what shedding is.  When a child catches the vaccine-strain of the disease from a child who was recently vaccinated with a live-virus vaccine.  It is known to happen with oral polio, chicken pox, and the smallpox vaccine.  Theoretically it could happen with the measles vaccine, but there are no documented cases of it ever actually happening. 

 

This is what would need to happen for an MMR campaign in Africa to cause a measles outbreak someplace else due to being a "plane ride away."  Recently vaccinated kids would need to be taken on a plane to Wales and infect kids there with the vaccine strain of measles.  Or someone from Wales could travel to Africa, get infected with the vaccine strain from a recently vaccinated child there, and bring it back with them and spread it further. 

 

Again, the big problem with this idea (aside from no known cases of vaccine-strain measles spreading) is that the MMR is used in Wales and most of the rest of the world already.  Why would a vaccination campaign in a different part of the world lead to a shedding-induced outbreak of measles in Wales when vaccination right there in Wales hasn't managed to do that?  

pers is offline  
#9 of 29 Old 04-14-2013, 11:01 AM - Thread Starter
 
dinahx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: earth
Posts: 2,144
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Because they are not using the same vaccine. In Africa they are using M&R, whereas in Wales they are using the older and more 'known' MMR. I am not saying it is definitely happening. Another issue is that the M&R is being admin'ed in a different way: all at once, massively, not sporadically, as each child reaches their time due. I was asking a question.

 

AFAIK, there is the phenomenon where someone contracts a disease from a live vax & then there is shedding, and then there is the one step beyond, where the shedding actually infects someone. We do know that MMR can do 1 & 2. You are saying it has never been documented to do 3, and I believe you.

 

However, M&R is new. It maybe that it uses older strains and just eliminates Mumps? I posted here more for discussion, less for debate, as I am not making an absolute claims, I am exploring.

dinahx is offline  
#10 of 29 Old 04-14-2013, 11:19 AM
 
rachelsmama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia
Posts: 1,555
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by dinahx View Post

 

AFAIK, there is the phenomenon where someone contracts a disease from a live vax & then there is shedding, and then there is the one step beyond, where the shedding actually infects someone. We do know that MMR can do 1 & 2. You are saying it has never been documented to do 3, and I believe you.

 

However, M&R is new. It maybe that it uses older strains and just eliminates Mumps? I posted here more for discussion, less for debate, as I am not making an absolute claims, I am exploring.

 

To be clear, I think it's a lot more likely that the measles outbreak and the M&R campaign are NOT linked, but you raise a few very interesting questions, so I thought I'd throw my musings into the mix:

 

-Would lack of sanitation increase the chances that step 3 could happen?

-Does the GAVI campaign conduct mass vaccinations in some areas with poor sanitation? 

-Are there foreign volunteers involved in the GAVI campaign, or substantial numbers of immigrants to Wales from the areas covered by the GAVI campaign?

-Your question about the strains in M&R is interesting

kathymuggle likes this.
rachelsmama is offline  
#11 of 29 Old 04-14-2013, 11:48 AM - Thread Starter
 
dinahx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: earth
Posts: 2,144
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Well Foreign Volunteers are most definitely involved with GAVI but IDK the exact details of how many are actually on the ground or if they use locals 4 admin . . .
dinahx is offline  
#12 of 29 Old 04-18-2013, 06:45 PM
 
Katie8681's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Northern Cali
Posts: 676
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Quote:
Well all Wakefield said was that if the UK hadn't locked down the importation of single valent Measles Vax, then parents who were afeared of MMR would have gotten that, thus keeping vax rates for Measles high . . . Which was his idea all along, not that people would skip MMR, but that they would get them singlevalently

He and his cronies CREATED that panic and had dreamed up several ways to make money off of it!


At home amongst the redwoods treehugger.gif with my husband and my son, born 7/5/11 familybed1.gif  Instant CNM, just add caffix.gif !

Katie8681 is offline  
#13 of 29 Old 04-18-2013, 07:32 PM
 
kathymuggle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,838
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 81 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie8681 View Post

He and his cronies CREATED that panic and had dreamed up several ways to make money off of it!

Maybe he did.  I don't really know (or care, frankly, as his vaccine did not come to pass).

 

However I would be careful venturing down this yellow brick road as so much of the panic around some VADs (flu, rota and CP come to mind) is created by the vaccine industry so it can sell its wares.  

rachelsmama likes this.

There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

Book and herb loving mama to 1 preteen and 2 teens (when did that happen?).  We travel, go to school, homeschool, live rurally, eat our veggies, spend too much time...

kathymuggle is online now  
#14 of 29 Old 04-18-2013, 07:36 PM
 
Taximom5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,092
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie8681 View Post

He and his cronies CREATED that panic and had dreamed up several ways to make money off of it!

Not true. In fact, Dr. Walker-Smith's (Wakefield's "crony," as you so nastily put it) insurance paid for him to appeal--and he was exonerated. The judge said that the case against him ( which was the same case against Wakefield, they were tried together) was total crap.

Wakefield wasn't responsible for any panic.

The exponentially increasing severe reactions to vaccines and the number of normally developing children who developed autism after several vaccines ended up being NOTICED--by parents, by teachers, by neighbors, by family members.

Despite Merck's efforts to shut people up, word continues to get out: vaccines can and do cause brain damage--including autism.

Katie8681, are you aware that, just in the last few months, the US Department of Health and Human Services admitted and compensated two cases of MMR-induced autism?
rachelsmama, Marnica and BeckyBird like this.
Taximom5 is offline  
#15 of 29 Old 04-19-2013, 01:25 PM
 
Katie8681's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Northern Cali
Posts: 676
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Taximom5, I'm aware of the headlines, not privy to any non-sensational summary. I know that a vaccine court award does not necessarily imply causation, just that the event happened within a certain time period after the vaccine.

At home amongst the redwoods treehugger.gif with my husband and my son, born 7/5/11 familybed1.gif  Instant CNM, just add caffix.gif !

Katie8681 is offline  
#16 of 29 Old 04-19-2013, 01:42 PM
 
minerva23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: down by the riverside
Posts: 459
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)

It would not surprise me if the measles outbreaks in UK are related to the GAVI campaign.

 

10 years ago there was a measles outbreak in my area right after a massive measles vaccine campaign. Quite interesting, it was all well documented, and the persons that had to be hospitalized were all treated with antipyretics opposed to those who were not and did not have to be hospitalized.

 

What concerns me about the UK outbreak is the massive push of vaccines where people have to wait in bulk in confined areas. Wouldn't that facilitate the spreading of the virus? So far there seems to be a measles-related death which as of yet still has to be confirmed (last I read was that he had measles but  the cause of death still needed to be determined). How severe are the confirmed measles cases and how are they treated? What is the ratio vax/unvax.?
 

BeckyBird likes this.

“The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.”
―Socrates

minerva23 is online now  
#17 of 29 Old 04-19-2013, 05:37 PM - Thread Starter
 
dinahx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: earth
Posts: 2,144
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

That is NOT all that is required for a Vax Court award. If it was, well there would be a lot more awardees about!

Marnica likes this.
dinahx is offline  
#18 of 29 Old 04-19-2013, 06:42 PM
 
Katie8681's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Northern Cali
Posts: 676
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
From what I'm reading, it's not whole lot more.

At home amongst the redwoods treehugger.gif with my husband and my son, born 7/5/11 familybed1.gif  Instant CNM, just add caffix.gif !

Katie8681 is offline  
#19 of 29 Old 04-19-2013, 09:20 PM - Thread Starter
 
dinahx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: earth
Posts: 2,144
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Maybe you could link us to what you are reading instead of using innuendo? The idea that it is 'easy' to get money from the Vax Court is crazy talk as NO family who has been through it has ever described it as anything resembling easy. I literally dare you to find me one compensated family that says 'now that was a BREEZE!'. To even be considered, it has to be listed on the table to compesnated injuries and also occur within the time frame and also be considered linked by the medical professionals involved. . . . 

dinahx is offline  
#20 of 29 Old 04-20-2013, 06:19 AM
 
Taximom5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,092
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Katie, I tend to trust the viewpoint of the families who have been through it rather than the viewpoint of Skeptic Bloggers who have not been through it, and who are out to prove their SkepticPoint.

The families who have been through it--even those who have WON--universally report that it was an absolute nightmare, and that they were treated like hostile criminal defendants. ALL those who won report that, even with an air-tight case, their cases were attacked in every possible way at the Vaccine Court.

And then they were gag-ordered.
BeckyBird likes this.
Taximom5 is offline  
#21 of 29 Old 04-20-2013, 11:39 AM - Thread Starter
 
dinahx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: earth
Posts: 2,144
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I am going to be real. If there is a movement I cannot stand in the US it is the SO CALLED 'Skeptic' movement which is absolutely marked by a LACK of Skepticism of any major corporation or industry or the science they pay for . . . It is almost like the corporations came up with that name in sort of an Orwellian doublespeak PR campaign . . . It is really and profoundly Corporate Apologetics . . . 

 

The most honest 'skeptic' out there, IMO is Dr. Amy and that is setting the bar SO low . . . 

dinahx is offline  
#22 of 29 Old 04-20-2013, 03:47 PM
 
kathymuggle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,838
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 81 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dinahx View Post

I am going to be real. If there is a movement I cannot stand in the US it is the SO CALLED 'Skeptic' movement which is absolutely marked by a LACK of Skepticism of any major corporation or industry or the science they pay for . . . 

kiss.gif

 

They often come across as rude haters, too.

BeckyBird likes this.

There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

Book and herb loving mama to 1 preteen and 2 teens (when did that happen?).  We travel, go to school, homeschool, live rurally, eat our veggies, spend too much time...

kathymuggle is online now  
#23 of 29 Old 04-21-2013, 12:38 PM
 
Katie8681's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Northern Cali
Posts: 676
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

kiss.gif

They often come across as rude haters, too.

Just like the loudmouth kid who pointed out that the emperor had no clothes?

At home amongst the redwoods treehugger.gif with my husband and my son, born 7/5/11 familybed1.gif  Instant CNM, just add caffix.gif !

Katie8681 is offline  
#24 of 29 Old 04-21-2013, 01:52 PM
 
kathymuggle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,838
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 81 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie8681 View Post


Just like the loudmouth kid who pointed out that the emperor had no clothes?

Nope.

 

You can be right and be an asshole or wrong and be an asshole.  They are wrong assholes.  The wrong is certainly more significant than the asshole part, but the asshole part is still off-putting and annoying.   JMHO.

Marnica and BeckyBird like this.

There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

Book and herb loving mama to 1 preteen and 2 teens (when did that happen?).  We travel, go to school, homeschool, live rurally, eat our veggies, spend too much time...

kathymuggle is online now  
#25 of 29 Old 04-21-2013, 03:27 PM
 
Katie8681's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Northern Cali
Posts: 676
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
There are unpleasant and pleasant people on all sides of this debate, so I guess maybe people should try to pay attention to the truth, rather than go with the charmers.
prosciencemum likes this.

At home amongst the redwoods treehugger.gif with my husband and my son, born 7/5/11 familybed1.gif  Instant CNM, just add caffix.gif !

Katie8681 is offline  
#26 of 29 Old 04-21-2013, 04:50 PM - Thread Starter
 
dinahx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: earth
Posts: 2,144
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Y'all have both taken this way off topic and I am sure are both outside the UA. The Skeptical movement is not 'pointing out that the emperor has no clothes', they are not like Galileo, altho I am sure they would try to claim that for themselves. My post was intended to discuss the Skeptical MOVEMENT and whether or not it is actually 'skeptical' as traditionally defined, not individuals that label themselves Skeptics, unless they are larger than life public personas like Orac or Dr. A . . . 

dinahx is offline  
#27 of 29 Old 04-21-2013, 05:02 PM
 
kathymuggle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,838
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 81 Post(s)

nm - repetitive 


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

Book and herb loving mama to 1 preteen and 2 teens (when did that happen?).  We travel, go to school, homeschool, live rurally, eat our veggies, spend too much time...

kathymuggle is online now  
#28 of 29 Old 04-21-2013, 05:07 PM
 
kathymuggle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,838
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 81 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dinahx View Post

Y'all have both taken this way off topic and I am sure are both outside the UA. 

Sadly, no.  Anything goes in vaccine discussion and debate.

 

In any event - I agree wholeheartedly with you.  I do not think the modern skeptics are sceptical at all. I am a little annoyed they have co-opted the word.   The nasty tone they have is just icky icing on the cake:  it is hardly the only or main issue I have with "skeptics."   

Marnica and BeckyBird like this.

There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

Book and herb loving mama to 1 preteen and 2 teens (when did that happen?).  We travel, go to school, homeschool, live rurally, eat our veggies, spend too much time...

kathymuggle is online now  
#29 of 29 Old 04-21-2013, 07:42 PM
 
Turquesa's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 4,030
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Bah! The word has become self-congratulatory and devoid of meaning.

I'm interested in science, not manufactured culture wars disguised as science.
Marnica, BeckyBird and Taximom5 like this.

In God we trust; all others must show data. selectivevax.gifsurf.gifteapot2.GIFintactivist.gif
Turquesa is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off