Medical doctor and parent of autistic child offers to take up Wakefield's debate challenge. Wakefield declines - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 42 Old 04-18-2013, 03:05 AM - Thread Starter
 
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One of the strangest things in my opinion about the recent measles problems in south wales is that Wakefield has popped up again and is still defending his claims about MMR safety which have been so thoroughly discredited and debunked. As part of this he issued a claim to debate publicly "any serious challenger on MMR safety". 

 

Well a medical doctor and parent of an autistic child has offered to do that, but Wakefield has ignored his offer and now wants to debate only Dr. David Salisbury, and only if it's put on live TV. To me this seems like it's just all about publicity. Maybe something to do with the pitch for a US reality TV show he's working on? 

 

You can read more at this article: 

http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2013/04/17/mike-fitzpatrick-calls-andrew-wakefields-bluff-wakefield-moves-goalposts/

 

I geniunely cannot understand why anyone would defend this man has having the safety of children at heart. He has been shown to be dishonest, and totally discredited. How can anyone still think he's a good guy "fighting agains a system" which is trying to harm children? 


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#2 of 42 Old 04-18-2013, 06:35 AM
 
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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

One of the strangest things in my opinion about the recent measles problems in south wales is that Wakefield has popped up again and is still defending his claims about MMR safety which have been so thoroughly discredited and debunked. As part of this he issued a claim to debate publicly "any serious challenger on MMR safety". 

 

Well a medical doctor and parent of an autistic child has offered to do that, but Wakefield has ignored his offer and now wants to debate only Dr. David Salisbury, and only if it's put on live TV. To me this seems like it's just all about publicity. Maybe something to do with the pitch for a US reality TV show he's working on? 

 

You can read more at this article: 

http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2013/04/17/mike-fitzpatrick-calls-andrew-wakefields-bluff-wakefield-moves-goalposts/

 

I geniunely cannot understand why anyone would defend this man has having the safety of children at heart. He has been shown to be dishonest, and totally discredited. How can anyone still think he's a good guy "fighting agains a system" which is trying to harm children? 

 

Perhaps, we should allow Dr Wakefield to speak for himself. 

 

 

The transcript.

 

The Statement of Isabella Thomas Mother of Two Lancet Study Children : "It is now time for the truth to be told"

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#3 of 42 Old 04-18-2013, 07:07 AM
 
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Now that studies are showing that Wakefield was right all along (anybody remember that the ENTIRE MEDICAL INDUSTRY insisted that autistic children did not have severe bowel disorders, that they just "acted out" because they were autistic? and that Wakefield and his group were the first doctors to assert that those kids DID have medical intestinal disorders that needed medical treatment?), now that his co-author was vindicated in court, now that the US Department of Health and Human Services has ADMITTED and COMPENSATED two cases of MMR-induced autism,now that more and more studies are coming out showing harm from vaccine ingredients,  the defenders of Big Pharm/Vaccines seem to have no other argument than to try to trash Wakefield.

 

Nice straw man, prosciencemum.

 

Well, actually, not.

 

Mirzam, excellent response to the pathetic straw man.  

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#4 of 42 Old 04-18-2013, 07:24 AM
 
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Also fascinating to see the sleight-of-hand in prosciencemum's link.

 

Wakefield made his offer to debate on the recently-released YouTube video.  This is April, 2013, in case anyone doesn't know the date.

 

Well, according to prosciencemum's link, Mike Fitzpatrick apparently offered to debate him....in 2007 and 2009.  Not in response to the April 2013 video, but back when he was still on trial with the GMC, and therefore unable to publicly debate his own case.

 

That article paints it as though Fitzpatrick was responding to Wakefield's recent offer to debate, "calling his bluff," and then says that Wakefield moved the goalpost by specifying that he'd specifically like to debate David Salisbury in front of an audience, televised.  The article implies that Wakefield is refusing to debate Fitzpatrick.

 

That's not true at all.  Watch Mirzam's YouTube link.  Wakefield offers to debate, and specifies that he'd specifically like to debate David Salisbury, IN A STATEMENT MADE IN APRIL 2013, IN RESPONSE TO ALLEGATIONS FROM THE PRESS THAT HE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE 2013 MEASLES OUTBREAKS IN WALES.  Unless Fitzpatrick is a time traveller, he couldn't respond to Wakefield's 2013 offer in 2007 and 2009.

 

I'm really glad leftbrainrightbrain showed their true colors and total lack of honesty here.  It really makes the issue so much clearer.  If anyone with any sense ever had any thoughts that maybe leftbrainrightbrain was on the level, they surely wouldn't now.  Way to go, lbrb.  Spinning it left, spinning it right...

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#5 of 42 Old 04-18-2013, 08:16 AM
 
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It is the media and pro-vaxxers who keep the whole Wakefiled thing alive.  It is pretty pathetic and desperate (IMHO).  It is also ineffective - few non-vaxxers or fence sitters care, and those who do often end up defending Wakefiled, perhpas because they sense some over-the-top persecution?

 

 

 


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#6 of 42 Old 04-18-2013, 09:07 AM
 
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It would be wise to read the transcript of his interview, or watch the video. Thanks for posting, Mirzam.  If you are going to accuse him of harming children, you should at least hear his side of the story.

It's only fair--I've read all about Offit the Great, so now it's your turn to learn the truth about Wakefield the Persecuted.

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#7 of 42 Old 04-18-2013, 11:54 AM
 
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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

One of the strangest things in my opinion about the recent measles problems in south wales is that Wakefield has popped up again and is still defending his claims about MMR safety which have been so thoroughly discredited and debunked. As part of this he issued a claim to debate publicly "any serious challenger on MMR safety". 

 

Well a medical doctor and parent of an autistic child has offered to do that, but Wakefield has ignored his offer and now wants to debate only Dr. David Salisbury, and only if it's put on live TV. To me this seems like it's just all about publicity. Maybe something to do with the pitch for a US reality TV show he's working on? 

 

You can read more at this article: 

http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2013/04/17/mike-fitzpatrick-calls-andrew-wakefields-bluff-wakefield-moves-goalposts/

 

I geniunely cannot understand why anyone would defend this man has having the safety of children at heart. He has been shown to be dishonest, and totally discredited. How can anyone still think he's a good guy "fighting agains a system" which is trying to harm children? 

God I'm so tired of this claim. YAWNNNNNNNN. I tell ya what I'd have Wakefield babysit my kids any day. orngbiggrin.gif. For anyone who has bothered to dig beneath the surface of the entire debacle - he is none of the above.  - he is clearly a scapegoat. Hey I think I've asked you this before but have you read his book? No don't answer that - I know you haven't and never will. It's a shame really because it addresses each and every false claim and provides detailed evidence that quite convincingly clears things up - at least it did for me. carry on


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#8 of 42 Old 04-18-2013, 02:10 PM
 
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I read the transcript and it screams for fact checking. All his claims and recollections are unsourced. I have no idea why a man with his history thinks we should take his word for anything. I made it through the transcript but I'm not about to go digging around the Internet doing his work for him. He seems like someone who just can't survive without media attention, even as his relevance shrinks.
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#9 of 42 Old 04-18-2013, 03:15 PM
 
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I read the transcript and it screams for fact checking. All his claims and recollections are unsourced. I have no idea why a man with his history thinks we should take his word for anything. I made it through the transcript but I'm not about to go digging around the Internet doing his work for him. He seems like someone who just can't survive without media attention, even as his relevance shrinks.

I believe that all of his claims and recollections are sourced in his book.

 

He would not have needed to write the book had he not been the target of Merck's witch hunt, which was launched in order to protect Merck's profits bydestroying the man who exposed the problems with the MMR program.

 

He made a point of explaining that he was not seeking media attention, but that the media had attacked him with several outright lies, yet gave him no opportunity to defend himself against those lies.  This is clearly true:  there is article after article claiming that it's his fault that there have been measles outbreaks, mumps outbreaks, etc, with no mention ANYWHERE of the fact that he recommended single-dose measles, mumps, and rubella vaccines 6 months before Merck decided to stop producing them.  He never said not to vaccinate.  

 

There is also no mention of the fact that, 10 years after Merck posted on their website that 95% of recipients had lifetime full immunity from the MMR, we are now told that everyone needs

boosters; yet, most adults today have not had a booster in decades.

 

Also not mentioned is the recent whistle-blower lawsuit against Merck, launched by Merck's own virologist, in which they allege that Merck lied about the efficacy of the mumps portion of the MMR, and that Merck engaged in extremely unethical practices to cover this up.

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#10 of 42 Old 04-18-2013, 03:34 PM
 
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The book is available on his website for $15. I don't think I have that to give to someone who gave disabled children colonoscopies with biopsy and spinal taps so he could push his measles vaccine.
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#11 of 42 Old 04-18-2013, 04:31 PM
 
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The book is available on his website for $15. I don't think I have that to give to someone who gave disabled children colonoscopies with biopsy and spinal taps so he could push his measles vaccine.

 

HIS measles vaccine? I had no idea that Dr Wakefield had a measles vaccine that he was pushing back in 1998. 


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"I geniunely cannot understand why anyone would defend this man has having the safety of children at heart. He has been shown to be dishonest, and totally discredited. How can anyone still think he's a good guy "fighting agains a system" which is trying to harm children? "

I cannot understand how anyone would defend pharmaceutical companies. Wakefield had everything to lose and he still stands by what he feels is right. When no one would listen to mothers insisting their children had been injured by vaccines, he listened. As a result he has lost everything.

Meanwhile, pharm companies still push vaccines as being "safe" with no informed consent on the horizon. Don't talk to me about Wakefield's dishonesty, when the ethical practices of the other side are downright criminal.

I will continue to defend Wakefield. And my right to choose what I want for my child.
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#13 of 42 Old 04-18-2013, 05:27 PM
 
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He filed for a patent on it in 1997. You can read a copy of the application online.

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HIS measles vaccine? I had no idea that Dr Wakefield had a measles vaccine that he was pushing back in 1998. 


http://briandeer.com/wakefield/vaccine-patent.htm

 

 

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even as the public alarm caused by Andrew Wakefield and the Royal Free medical school gathered pace, he had filed a patent claiming to have discovered his own, allegedly safer, measles vaccine. Following the programme, Wakefield published a statement denying this - a denial he repeated often. The secret 1997 document below was obtained exclusively by Deer and, with a 1998 published application, conclusively prove this shocking conflict of interest

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#15 of 42 Old 04-18-2013, 07:23 PM
 
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I am happy to see posters are concerned about conflict of interest.  I hope they are equally concerned about conflict of interest among those who have not been "discredited." 

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The book is available on his website for $15. I don't think I have that to give to someone who gave disabled children colonoscopies with biopsy and spinal taps so he could push his measles vaccine.

Wow, sounds like you've been totally taken in by Merck's lies.

1) Every parent of the 12 children (the "Lancet 12") that were part of the study has now gone on record stating that they are grateful that their children--who all had serious bowel disorders that had previously been blown off as "just autism" by other doctors--were FINALLY referred to gastroenterologists for colonoscopies (Drs Wakefield and Walker-Smith), which would have automatically been given to non-autistic children with the same symptoms.

Before Wakefield and Walker-Smith, parents of autistic children were ALWAYS told that their children did not have bowel disorder.

Now, of course, it's well-recognized that many autistic children do indeed have severe bowel disorders, including but not limited to celiac disease.

2). Dr. Wakefield did work on an injectable treatment for persistent measles infection (for people who ALREADY had measles infection that wouldn't go away); the Royal Free Hospital holds the patent, not Wakefield, and it was dropped from further testing because it didn't work. As an injectable, yes, it was classified as a vaccine. It was never intended to replace the single-dose measles injection, or, for that matter, the MMR, and it had already been dropped from study because early tests showed that it didn't work.

But, hey, from Merck's perspective, they were threatened by Wakefield' noticing the MMR-bowel disorder-autism link, and they wanted to destroy him.

You might want to do some research on Merck, and learn how they've reacted when their products have caused harm, or when their products have failed to be sufficiently effective. Also try to remember what their bottom line is.
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#17 of 42 Old 04-18-2013, 10:26 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Like I said as I started, I just find this astonishing.

I thought Wakefield was unimportant (many posts here try to claim this). So why should we spend any time or money on his viewpoint?

It's possible to dislike pharmaceutical companies (which I agree have some dubious practices like most large companies) but decide on balance of the evidence that most vaccines do (much) more good than bad.
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#18 of 42 Old 04-19-2013, 12:19 PM
 
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The book is available on his website for $15. I don't think I have that to give to someone who gave disabled children colonoscopies with biopsy and spinal taps so he could push his measles vaccine.

That is just a big fat crock. You don't want to find out if his claims are sourced in his book (which they are BTW as I have his book) because you have already made up your mind based on what? what you have been spoonfed by the media?  I can't stand Offit - but I have his book. I spent the money (got it used :) and I read it because if I'm going to have something to say about what he claims - I need to have his side of things and his perspective. What you have said he did above actually did not happen like that - but keep telling yourself it did while NOT following up on actual evidence. 

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#19 of 42 Old 04-19-2013, 12:27 PM
 
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Like I said as I started, I just find this astonishing.

I thought Wakefield was unimportant (many posts here try to claim this). So why should we spend any time or money on his viewpoint?

It's possible to dislike pharmaceutical companies (which I agree have some dubious practices like most large companies) but decide on balance of the evidence that most vaccines do (much) more good than bad.

No what many posts here claim is that Wakefield has not been a factor in their choice not to vaccinate. (this was true for me) This does not mean that what he stands for (concerns about MMR/vaccne safety) is not important. 

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#20 of 42 Old 04-19-2013, 12:36 PM
 
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Like I said as I started, I just find this astonishing.
 

I am not sure what is astonishing.  You started a post on Wakefield and people responded.  This seems a little pot meet kettle-ish.  

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The book is available on his website for $15. I don't think I have that to give to someone who gave disabled children colonoscopies with biopsy and spinal taps so he could push his measles vaccine.

You don't have a library? headscratch.gif

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#22 of 42 Old 04-19-2013, 06:46 PM
 
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*learn* lol!
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*learn* lol!

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*learn* lol!

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#25 of 42 Old 04-20-2013, 12:20 AM - Thread Starter
 
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duh.gif Sigh.

I totally agree (except I think in sighing about something different).

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#26 of 42 Old 04-20-2013, 06:07 AM
 
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Prosciencemum, you started this thread by expressing a very narrow-minded viewpoint that just happened to be based on misinformation.

I'm not blaming you for that, because that misinformation was published in the press as though it were hard fact.

You apparently believed that Wakefield had done unnecessary colonoscopies on children and dishonestly reported the time of onset of autism in his patients, as that was what had been reported in the press.

You concluded that he was dishonest and did not have the children's welfare at heart.

The parents of Wakefield's autistic patients had been BEGGING for appropriate treatment for their intestinal symptoms. This appropriate treatment included colonoscopies. The press reporting these colonoscopies as "unnecessary" was assuming that the kids did not in fact have severe intestinal problems.

But they did. That was the whole reason they were referred to Wakefield's group in the first place. Just read what the parents--ALL the parents, the parents of the children in question--have written in their statements supporting Wakefield.

The press, led by Pharma-funded Brian Deer, asserted that Wakefield lied about the onset of the children's autism, and produced illegally-obtained copies of hospital records that did not mention developmental problems (or in the case of one, mentioned them as being linked to cardiac defects not yet repaired by surgery).

The parents had other, conflicting records from other specialists, in many cases, pre-dating the hospital records, that DID mention concerns of developmental problems). The child with the heart defect underwent surgery, made a big catch-up in development--and was then given the MMR, and subsequently regressed. All documented BEFORE Wakefield ever saw them.

Are you aware how often doctors and nurses make errors in medical records? I've gone in with a ver sick child who had NO fever, and was asked by the nurse, the physician assistant, the physician, and then the specialist: "how long has your child had this fever? How high was the fever?" Somehow, it got into my child's record that there was a fever.

I've gotten copies of my children's medical records, and I stopped counting the number of errors. "not sleeping through the night." (Yes, he was, was sleeping with me.) "not getting enough breastmilk, nursing too often, formula recommended." (Because I let my newborn nurse every half hour on the first day) "Child developing normally" (except he'd gone from conversations to only a few words, couldn't point, flapped, spun, banged his head, and had echolalia, intestinal problems, and wasn't responding to verbal cues.).

There was at least one error--usually minor, but not always--for every visit.

I'm wondering if you are realizing that at least some of what you believe is incorrect?

And if some of what you believe is incorrect, don't you wonder if anything else might be?

Wouldn't it be worth your time to read Wakefield's side of things, and then sit down and add up ALL the facts, rather than just the ones that were presented by a media system known to be corrupt?

And while we're at it, shouldn't you remember that our society has a tendency to latch onto one viewpoint and champion it without fully knowing ALL the facts? How many centuries did it take before the Catholic Church acknowledged their error in declaring Galileo a heretic? How long did it take physicians to stop sneering at Semmelweis' observations about hand-washing and childbed fever?

How scientific is YOUR understanding of the facts? Doesn't science--pure science--allow for reanalysis when new data is presented?

You haven't HAD access to all the data if you're only basing your beliefs on leftbrainrightbrain and the mainstream media. Shouldn't you read what Wakefield--the accused--has to say? As Marnica's and Beckybird have said, most of us on this side of the fence have read Offit's book, and Mnookin's book, and others. Are we the only ones looking at both sides?

You don't have to buy the book. Ask your library for one. Ask a local anti-vaxxer if you can borrow their copy. They probably feel strongly enough that they'd buy you a copy.

Read it. You don't have to change your mind about anything.

Just read it.

And then we'll talk.
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#27 of 42 Old 04-21-2013, 06:37 AM
 
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He DID lie about when at least some of the children's autism symptoms started. The parents have come forward and said so. And he DID have, at best, mixed motivations. He was being paid to achieve a particular outcome.
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#28 of 42 Old 04-21-2013, 10:40 AM
 
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He DID lie about when at least some of the children's autism symptoms started. The parents have come forward and said so. And he DID have, at best, mixed motivations. He was being paid to achieve a particular outcome.

Show proof, please. Show proof that the parents have come forward and said that Wakefield lied.  Let's have names and dates, please.

 

I have seen statements from the parents of every child.  All but one COMPLETELY supported Wakefield (one was silent), and ALL of them eventually COMPLEtelY refuted Brian Deer's version of events (which became the de facto media version). The one father that had been silent did not want to get involved, because he felt that to do so might jeopardize his child's chance of being treated elsewhere.  (Go against Big Pharma and Big Med, get blacklisted from treatment.)  But eventually, he too came forward--and absolutely blasted Brian Deer, for lying to him, and for misrepresenting the facts.

 

In Wakefield's book, he explains all this in great detail--with plenty of documentation.

 

The parents themselves have gotten together to write two books:  Silenced Witnesses I and Silenced Witnesses II:  The Denial of Vaccine Damage by the Government, Corporations, and the Media.  They are available on Amazon.  Perhaps you should read the parents' own words before your rely on reports by a corrupt news agency.

 

And how distasteful--you just completely derailed the thread with a wild accusation, with no proof whatsoever, just to derail the thread.

 

Looks like you don't want prosciencemum to respond to my post directed at her. 

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#29 of 42 Old 04-21-2013, 11:07 AM
 
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He DID lie about when at least some of the children's autism symptoms started. The parents have come forward and said so. And he DID have, at best, mixed motivations. He was being paid to achieve a particular outcome.

I'd like to see the proof that "he was being paid to achieve a particular outcome".
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#30 of 42 Old 04-21-2013, 11:11 AM
 
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Have you actually read the Brian deer article? Either of you?
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