Physician to British Press: Stop Blaming Wakefield - Mothering Forums
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#1 of 29 Old 04-18-2013, 04:14 PM - Thread Starter
 
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http://www.vaccinationnews.com/2013-4-15-stop-blaming-wakefield-YazbakFE

Interesting information. I honestly hadn't questioned the Wakefield-causes-measles argument.

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#2 of 29 Old 04-18-2013, 05:57 PM
 
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One man causing a measles outbreak (and from aforeign shore, no less) …he must feel like a demi god.

 

This whole thing is offensive.  Parents are seen as such pawns in this world that they cannot be held responsible for decisions they made (i.e to not vaccinate) - we instead have to blame one person: Wakefield! 

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#3 of 29 Old 04-19-2013, 07:39 AM
 
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Just to add to this:

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/19/swansea-measles-local-anti-mmr-stories

 

 

"Shame is a perilous commodity in public health. A little social stigma keeps everyone in line, but lay it on too thick, and you'll repel people from the measures that are supposed to help them. You can hear the health services in south Wales carefully tracing this boundary..The message to the population there is twofold: continue to refuse the MMR, and you put your children in danger and make them a risk to others; but because you're a good parent, you can bring your kids along to a clinic and make everything OK with a short, sharp scratch."   eyesroll.gif

 

The whole think is coming off as a little puppet-mastery...

 

Later on in the article the journalist says people are feeling ashamed of their choice not to give MMR- a decision she has come to because no one wants to speak publicly about being non-vax.  Her logic is astounding - maybe nobody wants to talk about it the midst of an outbreak because it would not go well, and they have no desire to maker their personal health choices political?  

 

 The whole blame Wakefield,  blame the media thing is stupid.  Even if you think Wakefield or the media can be blamed for a parents choice, (way to not accept personal responsibility) the MMR/autism link has been "debunked" for years -parents could have gotten the shot at any time, if they felt so inclined.  

 

I think the media and Wakefield are being made scapegoats because the powers that be do not want to "blame" parents.  They are afraid, as the article says, that it will backfire.  

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#4 of 29 Old 04-19-2013, 08:07 AM
 
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Just to add to this:

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/19/swansea-measles-local-anti-mmr-stories

 

 

 -parents could have gotten the shot at any time, if they felt so inclined.  

 

I think the media and Wakefield are being made scapegoats because the powers that be do not want to "blame" parents.  They are afraid, as the article says, that it will backfire.  

 and to add - if you read the replies on many of the news stories, over and over parents in Wales are saying how they DO want the shots split up, they do not trust and are not coming out in the droves to vaccinate and the up numbers are not where the govt had thought they would be- clearly parents directly effected still are not trusting the govt health calls

 

we can say all we want sitting here in the US but reading the parents thoughts in Wales gives a much different prospective-IMO

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-west-wales-22198749

But the local health board in the main affected area of Swansea and Neath Port Talbot said the school campaign had got off to a "disappointing" start.


 

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#5 of 29 Old 04-19-2013, 08:21 AM
 
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http://www.itv.com/news/story/2013-04-06/weekend-measles-vaccination/

 

The first video in this link, 21 hours old, had a journalist standing in front of a school saying  that at that particular school, only 30% of parents of children eligible for the MMR signed the consent form for vaccination.

 

It will be interesting to see the total numbers in a few weeks - how many non-vaxxed kids (not babies whose parents were bringing them early, not people with one shot who were now getting around/choosing to getting the second) decided to vax their kids.

 

It won't really bother me either way - I think holding firm to your decision is fine, and reconsidering your decision (based on an actual outbreak) is also fine.  


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#6 of 29 Old 04-19-2013, 08:38 AM
 
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I would be interested to see numbers (doubt we will) that show the reason for the hospitalizations, who is being hospitalized (age and vac statics as well) and who is mostly breaking out with this recent out break (ages- be it vaced or as Kathy said, with one or two boosters) 

 

I would like to see into (again can't find) how the rest of the UK is currently doing on their MMR uptake - are they rushing in droves to get the second booster (and how much will it effect doing so early?) and England seems to have a overall rate of less vaccinated for MMR vs Wales already - is this changing? How many are going to France for the single shot too?


 

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I would also wonder how many got titers tested, and realized they didn't need the shot. (But Merck and the Pharma-funded press would still call them "eligible to receive the MMR.")
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#8 of 29 Old 04-19-2013, 09:46 AM
 
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I would also wonder how many got titers tested, and realized they didn't need the shot. (But Merck and the Pharma-funded press would still call them "eligible to receive the MMR.")

I don't think the quick put together clinics are offering it.


 

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#9 of 29 Old 04-19-2013, 02:02 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Just to add to this:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/19/swansea-measles-local-anti-mmr-stories


"Shame is a perilous commodity in public health. A little social stigma keeps everyone in line, but lay it on too thick, and you'll repel people from the measures that are supposed to help them. You can hear the health services in south Wales carefully tracing this boundary..The message to the population there is twofold: continue to refuse the MMR, and you put your children in danger and make them a risk to others; but because you're a good parent, you can bring your kids along to a clinic and make everything OK with a short, sharp scratch."   eyesroll.gif

The whole think is coming off as a little puppet-mastery...

Later on in the article the journalist says people are feeling ashamed of their choice not to give MMR- a decision she has come to because no one wants to speak publicly about being non-vax.  Her logic is astounding - maybe nobody wants to talk about it the midst of an outbreak because it would not go well, and they have no desire to maker their personal health choices political?  

 The whole blame Wakefield,  blame the media thing is stupid.  Even if you think Wakefield or the media can be blamed for a parents choice, (way to not accept personal responsibility) the MMR/autism link has been "debunked" for years -parents could have gotten the shot at any time, if they felt so inclined.  

I think the media and Wakefield are being made scapegoats because the powers that be do not want to "blame" parents.  They are afraid, as the article says, that it will backfire.  

I've said that Wakefield wasn't a factor in my vax decisions, but indirectly, he was. The way that They handled the Wakefield case--dismissing the concerns even before researching them, talking down to parents, nasty and patronizing exam room lectures from pediatricians, equating the need for MMR vaccine compliance with the "need" for all-vaccines compliance, the hysteria, the hate bloggers, etc, etc, etc--got me to step back and re-evaluate the entire vaccine schedule. Combine all of that with the surge in control-freakish exemption policies, and you have a recipe for parental skepticism.

I ultimately chose MMR for my kids. But there is no faster way to get me to question things than to try to convince me not to question them.
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#10 of 29 Old 04-21-2013, 05:09 PM
 
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following the "maybe" first death - it should be interesting to see if the medical community (outside of Wakefield) starts to get some blame

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2312426/Man-died-South-Wales-measles-epidemic-seen-hours-doctor-day-died.html

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-22242032


 

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Wow, Serenbat, I clicked on your link and looked at the photos.  Those pictures are from BEFORE he had measles?  He looked terribly unhealthy--like he had cancer or AIDS or something.  He was absolutely gaunt.

 

And then the doctors just gave him paracetamol?  And we know paracetamol and vaccines are a bad combination--I wonder if paracetamol and measles are a bad combination?

 

I'm also wondering what underlying medical condition(s) he had.

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Wow, Serenbat, I clicked on your link and looked at the photos.  Those pictures are from BEFORE he had measles?  He looked terribly unhealthy--like he had cancer or AIDS or something.  He was absolutely gaunt.

 

And then the doctors just gave him paracetamol?  And we know paracetamol and vaccines are a bad combination--I wonder if paracetamol and measles are a bad combination?

 

I'm also wondering what underlying medical condition(s) he had.

Measles and paracetamol (acetaminophen) is definitely not a good combination.


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This NHS advice disagrees with you: http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Measles/Pages/Treatment.aspx

Can you support your statement with any evidence?

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#14 of 29 Old 04-22-2013, 04:01 AM
 
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Again, it looks like a predisposed subgroup may be involved:

http://aut.sagepub.com/content/12/3/293.abstract

http://www.altmedrev.com/publications/14/4/364.pdf

http://www.ane.pl/pdf/7026.pdf

Clearly, more study is needed. It could be that the kids predisposed to autism might be more likely to have vaccine reactions, including fevers--that would be treated with paracetamol/Tylenol. However, Ibuprofen use in conjunction with the MMR did not appear to raise the risk of autism, and that may be significant.
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This NHS advice disagrees with you: 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

 

And then the doctors just gave him paracetamol?  And we know paracetamol and vaccines are a bad combination--I wonder if paracetamol and measles are a bad combination?

 

I'm also wondering what underlying medical condition(s) he had. seems to suggest he did from the links I provided-not the healthiest Mrs Colfer said her son, who weighed just 8st at 6ft 1ins tall, suffered from asthma and was taking vitamins.

 

Strange isn't it? In the US when a hospitable discharges a patient or fail to admit one  (as in this case, young) and he drop within hours, we view it as medical neglect /malpractice for failing to adequately treat him (as in keeping him in the facility).......and it's doesn't (IMO) bode well for the medical system in Wales either - I can't imagine that the people that are not having their children vaccinated feel too good about how this young man was treated-more reason to mistrust 

 

seems the mother is not too happy with how her son was treated - http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/health/heartbroken-family-pay-tribute-suspected-2820631

 

 

“But he didn’t have any rash  on his arms so the three GPs  who had a look at him all gave  him a prescription of  paracetamol.

 

ETA- it's going to be (if it's released) the reason this 25 year old was not vaccinated - clearly not a "Wakefield" hyped age group - was it a heath issue or some other reason in his case or was he??

“He should have been admitted that night.”


 

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This NHS advice disagrees with you: http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Measles/Pages/Treatment.aspx

Can you support your statement with any evidence?

 

Yes, I can, in a study conducted in Ghana, children were divided into two groups; one group received antipyretics* -- typical at many hospitals. Mortality was five times greater the the group that recieved the antipyretics than in the group that did not receive the treatment. The researchers concluded that "children with the most violent, highly febrile form of the disease actually had the best prognosis."

 

Witsenburg, B.C. "Measles mortality and therapy," pp 26 -27. From an abstract of a 1967-1968 measles epidemic study conducted in Ghana.

 

 

* Paracetamol is an antipyretic after all.

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Serenbat, according to your link, the 25-year-old who died with measles, Gareth Colfer-Williams, HAD BEEN IMMUNIZED AGAINST MEASLES, as was his daughter, who apparently did NOT have measles.

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Serenbat, according to your link, the 25-year-old who died with measles, Gareth Colfer-Williams, HAD BEEN IMMUNIZED AGAINST MEASLES, as was his daughter, who apparently did NOT have measles.

yes, I had seen and they (his family) don't know who gave him his, but I have not seen any "authorities" come out with that info- I'm "assuming" they will say he needed his booster and that was the cause- he wasn't fully immunized in way the govt/health dept requirements 

I assume his daughter only had one dose given her age

 

I have read several reports of people giving the second dose to children not at the appropriate time(age) and the govt there seems to have no issue with this-odd?? Safe?

 

underlining health issues and IMO very poor medical treatment are huge factors here - can't seem to find much other than waiting to do an official ruling as to cause - curious if they (govt) will say anything as to the treatment or lack their of a factor or if the rule organ failure due to measles??? 

 

has anyone found any info on the others hospitalized?


 

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http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/393509/MMR-jab-remains-controversial-despite-recent-measles-death

 

if find this to be interesting - the message of single is still out there and I don't think the issue will go away anytime soon

 

 

 

The *author of Vaccines, a Parent’s Guide, due out this month, he said while the link *between MMR and autism suggested by Dr Wakefield was not proven, many parents thought it was harmful. Single measles vaccines were available on the NHS until 1998.

He added: “I see parents week in and week out who are delighted to have the opportunity to have a calm *rational conversation about vaccinating their child without being bullied and *patronised which is all too *often their experience on the NHS.”

Jackie Fletcher, whose son *Robert, 21, was awarded £91,500 for brain damage caused by MMR in 2011, now runs JABS, a *vaccine damage support group.

She said: “Ministers and public health bosses should reinstate the single measles vaccine immediately. They have a duty of care to provide a choice.”


 

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It appears Gareth Colfer-Williams (the guy that recently died) had asthma.

 

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4896950/Swansea-measles-death-dad-sent-home-by-doctors.html

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He had asthma, he was vaccinated for measles--but when?  Did he recently receive an MMR?  Or another vaccine that might have made his immune system malfunction? Was he on drugs?

 

There are so many holes here, it's ridiculous.

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#22 of 29 Old 04-23-2013, 06:14 PM
 
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Also, if he was on steroids to control the asthma, his immune system would have been suppressed.

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#23 of 29 Old 04-24-2013, 03:58 AM
 
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Also, if he was on steroids to control the asthma, his immune system would have been suppressed.

he had issues  - He had underlying health problems but his mother, Angela Colfer, is angry that he was not diagnosed with measles until after his death despite him being seen by doctors hours before he died.

 

according to - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-22274206

 

and now they are giving some single shots too

 

........................................................................................

 

interesting - (I was told by an "older" Dr. this was due to lack of training/exposure in younger Dr.s/MD, etc)

 

It added that it can be difficult to diagnose measles because many of the symptoms are similar to other viral illnesses particularly in the early stages.

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interesting - (I was told by an "older" Dr. this was due to lack of training/exposure in younger Dr.s/MD, etc)

 

It added that it can be difficult to diagnose measles because many of the symptoms are similar to other viral illnesses particularly in the early stages.

 

The other issue is measles tends to be way over diagnosed.

 

 

Measles Over Diagnosed – Up to 7400%

A.  Laboratory confirmed cases of measles, mumps, and rubella, England and Wales: October to December 2004

Notified: 474, Tested: 589†, Confirmed cases: 8

RATE OF OVERDIAGNOSIS:- 589/8 = proportionately 7400% or 74 times overdiagnosed

SOURCE: CDR Weekly, Volume 15 Number 12 Published: 24 March 2005

[Note from Source: "†Some oral fluid specimens were submitted early from suspected cases and may not have been subsequently notified, thus the proportion tested is artificially high for this quarter."]

B.  Total confirmed cases of measles and oral fluid IgM antibody tests in cases notified to ONS*: weeks 40-52/2005

Notified: 408, Tested: 343, Confirmed cases: 22

RATE OF OVERDIAGNOSIS:- 343/22 = proportionately 1560 % or 15.6 times overdiagnosed

SOURCE: CDR Weekly, Volume 16 Number 12 Published on: 23 March 2006

 

http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/graphs/


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#25 of 29 Old 04-24-2013, 11:57 AM
 
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This NHS advice disagrees with you: http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Measles/Pages/Treatment.aspx

Can you support your statement with any evidence?

Tylenol depletes glutathione. I assume it was given to this man because he had a fever, although that wasn't mentioned. Why else would it be given? It's really common knowledge that treating a fever, especially one that is due to an infectious disease, can cause more harm than good and can be quite dangerous. 


If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#26 of 29 Old 04-24-2013, 12:53 PM
 
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Paracetamol (Tylenol) is in common use in the UK for treating headaches, mild pain relief (including aches and pains related to feeling generally unwell) as well as a fever suppressant. It's an over the counter medicine here so is not prescribed, but can be recommended.

I don't know what glutathione is.

Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

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#27 of 29 Old 04-24-2013, 01:08 PM
 
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http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glutathione

Look under "function".

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#28 of 29 Old 04-24-2013, 01:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post


I don't know what glutathione is.

Glutathione is essential for heavy metal excretion--like the thimerosal and/or aluminum in vaccines.

Prosciencemum, glutathione has been discussed here before, on a thread where you were quite active:

http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1368324/the-supposed-flu-during-pregnancy-autism-link

Post #20: "Without sufficient vitamin D, you don't produce glutathione. Glutathione is used by the body to eliminate heavy metals, but without glutathione, those heavy metals stay in the body--and cross the blood/brain barrier. They also cause autoimmune disorders--which are very common in autistic children, and there are even studies indicating that autistic children tend to have a strong family history of autoimmune disorder. So someone with vitamin D deficiency would be at risk for reacting badly to the heavy metals in vaccines."
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#29 of 29 Old 04-25-2013, 10:37 AM
 
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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

Paracetamol (Tylenol) is in common use in the UK for treating headaches, mild pain relief (including aches and pains related to feeling generally unwell) as well as a fever suppressant. It's an over the counter medicine here so is not prescribed, but can be recommended.

I don't know what glutathione is.

I'm well aware of what Tylenol is - isn't everybody? I assume the Tylenol was given for fever as fever and measles usually go hand in hand, although I"m sure this isn't always the case. I'm also making an assumption because it's fairly commonplace for medical people to throw Tylenol at people  - even when there is no good reason to do it. (ie feeling generally unwell)

 

I'm also well aware of it's dangers - just because something is in common use, doesn't make it without its problems/risks/dangers. I will never use Tylenol either for myself or my children - not with effective and much safer alternatives available.

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If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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