First Vaccine to Help Control Autism Symptoms - Mothering Forums

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Old 04-24-2013, 04:43 PM - Thread Starter
 
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http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/04/130424112309.htm

 

 

 

 

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The groundbreaking study by Brittany Pequegnat and Guelph chemistry professor Mario Monteiro appears this month in the journal Vaccine.

They developed a carbohydrate-based vaccine against the gut bug Clostridium bolteae.

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Old 04-24-2013, 09:57 PM
 
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Wait.

They have deve loped a vaccine for...the very intestinal problems they've spent decades insisting that autistic children don't have?

{head-desk}
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Old 04-25-2013, 06:29 AM
 
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Surely it is not the case that everyone with a gut infection has autism. As far as I understood it's not even true that everyone with autism has gut problems. 


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Old 04-25-2013, 08:00 AM
 
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Surely it is not the case that everyone with a gut infection has autism. As far as I understood it's not even true that everyone with autism has gut problems. 

Four years ago the "experts" at the Mayo Clinic and the APA decreed that there was no connection between bowel disease and autism. (Oops)

 

Now they are saying:

 

"More than 90 per cent of children with autism spectrum disorders suffer from chronic, severe gastrointestinal symptoms. Of those, about 75 per cent suffer from diarrhea, according to current literature. Little is known about the factors that predispose autistic children to C. bolteae,' said Monteiro. Although most infections are handled by some antibiotics, he said, a vaccine would improve current treatment.

 

Make you minds up guys.

 

 


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Old 04-25-2013, 08:24 AM
 
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Completely anecdotal:

 

I have 2 autistic nephews. 

 

one suffers from sporadic constipation.  He is also prone to vomiting when ill (more so than others) and has been admitted to hospital more than once for dehydration

 

One suffers from chronic gut issues.  He is 10 and on Metamucil.  He does not form proper bowel movement - rather his stools are smears - and he does many in one day.


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Old 04-25-2013, 11:59 AM
 
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Surely it is not the case that everyone with a gut infection has autism. As far as I understood it's not even true that everyone with autism has gut problems. 
Nobody has even hypothesized that everyone with a gut infection has autism. Not sure where you are getting that.

Also, nobody is saying that everyone with autism has gut problems.

There is a significant subgroup of people with autism who have severe gut issues. My understanding is that there is also a general correlation of severity of gut issues with severity of autism.

Yet, even now, it is common for pediatricians in the US to tell parents that there is absolutely no link between intestinal symptoms and autism. We are told over and over again tht gluten-free, casein-free diets are dangerous, and warned not to even try them.

The gist of the case against Wakefield, Walker-Smith, and Murch was that the 12 autistic children in the original paper were given unnecessary colonoscopies (even though the parents had been begging for investigative procedures and treatment for their very real intestinal problems that had hitherto gone ignored).

To try and put this in perspective along with the vaccine-autism issue, most of us are not saying that all autism is caused by vaccines, nor that vaccines will result in autism for all children. We are saying that there is a significant subgroup in whom vaccines are either causing or resulting in autism.

I suspect that it's the same subgroup that ends up with severe bowel disorders.

Hopefully that clarifies why many of us are upset to see that the pharmaceutical industry is offering a VACCINE to "address" a situation at we feel was at least partially caused in the first place by vaccines.
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Old 04-25-2013, 12:32 PM
 
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I am a little out of my knowledge-base on this one (I do not know much about gut issues and vaccines, so I will be subbing).

 

I find it odd though - if scientists think it is possible for a vaccine to help those with autism, why don't they think it is possible for vaccines to trigger autism in some people?   


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Old 04-26-2013, 12:23 AM
 
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So if I get this right, the hypothesis you have is that vaccines cause bowel disfunction in some children and that in some children this bowel disfunction causes them to have behavioural problems which look like autism. Does that sum up the idea?

Presumably if they're developing a vaccine to help with some bowel issues it's because there's a virus or bacteria involved in causing them. Where does that come into it in your hypothesis?

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Old 04-26-2013, 12:43 PM
 
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So if I get this right, the hypothesis you have is that vaccines cause bowel disfunction in some children and that in some children this bowel disfunction causes them to have behavioural problems which look like autism. Does that sum up the idea?
 

No, it really doesn't sum up the idea.  But hang in there with me for a bit, prosciencemum, okay?

 

Behavioral problems that look like autism ARE autism.  There is, so far, no way of separating autism from anything that "looks like autism," because autism is defined by behavioral symptoms.  If a kid flaps, spins, toe-walks, bangs his head, speaks only in echolalia, has no eye-contact, perseverates for hours on an inanimate object, etc., that's a pretty firm diagnosis of autism. 


If the same autistic kid also has severe bowel disorder, well, for starters, most doctors wouldn't recognize that he HAS any kind of bowel disorder.  Ive been there, ok?  Doctors say things like, "Oh, kids get (diarrhea) (constipation) (tummy aches) all the time, it's not a big deal."  They said that for my "neuro-typical" kids (who turned out to have celiac disease); they didn't even BEGIN to consider that my kid with autism could possibly have intestinal issues, because "autistic kids always behave that way (as though they have major belly pain)."  Do you know what they called that kind of behavior?  "Autistic posturing."  I'm not kidding.  And my kid was verbal enough to SAY his stomach hurt.  They said he was being over-dramatic (until they diagnosed him with celiac).

 

Well, you're a scientist, and you have kids, so you know that kids don't have intestinal issues all the time, right?  I mean, your kids don't have stomach aches that reduce them to tears 2-3 times a week, tdo they?  They don't have enormous, incredibly stinky, toilet-clogging poops on a regular basis, do they?  You don't need a dozen wipies every time they poop, do you?

 

That's what a lot of autism moms are dealing with, though.

 

And a lot of them (not all--nobody is saying that diet is the answer for all of them) are finding that when they remove gluten and casein from the diet, the intestinal symptoms all stop--and so do the echolalia, the perseveration, the lack of eye contact, the toe-walking, etc.

 

Does that mean that the kids don't have autism?  Well, the way autism is currently defined, no, it doesn't.  Maybe in the future, autism will be defined differently, but for now, we're stuck with the standard definition.  So please, let's not say, "oh, well, if you could cure it with a diet, it wasn't autism to begin with," because, so far, there's no other definition for those "behavioral" symptoms.  

 

I'm not even sure that "bowel disfunction" is the best way to describe what happens to these kids, but let's go with that terminology for now.

 

I think it's more accurate to say that the vaccine-caused bowel disfunction can result in neurological damage, which may be reversible, if the bowel disorder is addressed. Obviously, if there is ALSO some kind of neuro issue that vaccines are either causing, triggering, or exacerbating AT THE SAME TIME (for example, seizures), then vaccine-induced bowel disorders that can result in further neurological problems can be disastrous.

 

Does that make sense to you?

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Old 04-26-2013, 03:39 PM
 
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Not really.

A. I can't see why bowel problems would cause neurological problems.

B. There's no good evidence linking vaccines with bowel problems.

I do see that life must be horrible for parents of autistic children, and parents of children with bowel disfunction - whether or not they both happen together.

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Old 04-26-2013, 04:45 PM
 
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Not really.

A. I can't see why bowel problems would cause neurological problems.

B. There's no good evidence linking vaccines with bowel problems.

I do see that life must be horrible for parents of autistic children, and parents of children with bowel disfunction - whether or not they both happen together.



As a scientist, how do you explain the fact that the behavioral problems stop when casein and gluten are removed from the diet, at least some of the time? That seems to indicate a connection, for some, between intestinal issues and behavioral problems. Or do you have another explaination?
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Old 04-26-2013, 05:00 PM
 
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Not really.

A. I can't see why bowel problems would cause neurological problems.

B. There's no good evidence linking vaccines with bowel problems.

I do see that life must be horrible for parents of autistic children, and parents of children with bowel disfunction - whether or not they both happen together.

 

Check out GAPS (Gut and Psychology Syndrome) and the work of Dr Natasha Campbell-McBride which should give you so clue as to how bowel problems cause neurological issues. Frankly, I am surprised you have never heard of this. Many parents are able to reverse autism, ADHA, and other neurological, psychological issues with the diet devised by Dr Campbell-McBride.


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Old 04-26-2013, 08:29 PM
 
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Googled "behavior and gut" and this was the first of many links:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/05/110517110315.htm

 

This is from Pubmed, "The ability of gut microbiota to communicate with the brain and thus modulate behavior is emerging as an exciting concept in health and disease."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21303428

 

Search anything related to gut, bowel, intestinal flora, etc. and behavior, schizophrenia, neurological issues, etc. You will find credible sources.


 
 
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Old 04-26-2013, 10:41 PM
 
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Aargh--I wrote a whole long post,and it disappeared.

I'll try to rewrite it in the morning, but in the meantime, prosciencemum, can you check out http://www.karynseroussi.com/home.html and http://www.princeton.edu/~serge/ll/gfpak.htm

Please let me know what you think, okay?
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Old 04-29-2013, 09:35 AM
 
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So I did a bit more reading, and I stand corrected. There's a well documented correlation between autism and bowel disfunction. It seems very unclear which comes first though, which I suppose makes sense, and there are both autistic kids without bowel disfunction, and kids with bowel disfunction who are not autistic. 

 

The research paper that started this all off says in its abstract that treating bowel disfunction in autistic kids does alleviate some of the autism symptoms which is really interesting: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X13004532

 

There's a sci-news.com article about the new vaccine being developed to try to help with bowel disfunction here which I found a bit more readable: http://www.sci-news.com/medicine/article01038.html

 

So as I said I stand corrected on A, even if I don't really understand how the link could work it appears well documented. I'll still go back to B though - no link between the bowel disfunction and vaccines for other diseases.... 

 

 Why would you jump straight to vaccines, and not the wider diet/environment (too many anti-bacterial chemicals used in the house, HFC in the diet, chemical pesticide residue on vegetables etc). All of that other stuff happens every days and these kids are literally swimming in it, while the vaccine is just a tiny drop in the ocean. I just personally cannot see how it can be linked.

 

But if good evidence comes up to show otherwise I'll happily stand corrected on that too. Actually if it were vaccines causing this it'd be so much easier to fix than all the other environmental stuff. 


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Old 04-29-2013, 11:56 AM - Thread Starter
 
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So I did a bit more reading, and I stand corrected. There's a well documented correlation between autism and bowel disfunction. It seems very unclear which comes first though, which I suppose makes sense, and there are both autistic kids without bowel disfunction, and kids with bowel disfunction who are not autistic. 

 

The research paper that started this all off says in its abstract that treating bowel disfunction in autistic kids does alleviate some of the autism symptoms which is really interesting: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X13004532

 

There's a sci-news.com article about the new vaccine being developed to try to help with bowel disfunction here which I found a bit more readable: http://www.sci-news.com/medicine/article01038.html

 

So as I said I stand corrected on A, even if I don't really understand how the link could work it appears well documented. I'll still go back to B though - no link between the bowel disfunction and vaccines for other diseases.... 

 

 Why would you jump straight to vaccines, and not the wider diet/environment (too many anti-bacterial chemicals used in the house, HFC in the diet, chemical pesticide residue on vegetables etc). All of that other stuff happens every days and these kids are literally swimming in it, while the vaccine is just a tiny drop in the ocean. I just personally cannot see how it can be linked.

 

But if good evidence comes up to show otherwise I'll happily stand corrected on that too. Actually if it were vaccines causing this it'd be so much easier to fix than all the other environmental stuff. 

easy to fix when any link between the two is denied constantly?  i doubt somehow pharma would print a retraction, 'oops, sorry we were wrong, vaccines can cause intestinal problems'  i don't see that as an option for pharma anytime in my lifetime.  The only fix is not to get any vaccines until it is proved they don't cause gut problems. Pharma won't go for that. 

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Old 04-29-2013, 12:40 PM
 
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So I did a bit more reading, and I stand corrected. There's a well documented correlation between autism and bowel disfunction. It seems very unclear which comes first though, which I suppose makes sense, and there are both autistic kids without bowel disfunction, and kids with bowel disfunction who are not autistic. 

 

The research paper that started this all off says in its abstract that treating bowel disfunction in autistic kids does alleviate some of the autism symptoms which is really interesting: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X13004532

 

There's a sci-news.com article about the new vaccine being developed to try to help with bowel disfunction here which I found a bit more readable: http://www.sci-news.com/medicine/article01038.html

 

So as I said I stand corrected on A, even if I don't really understand how the link could work it appears well documented. I'll still go back to B though - no link between the bowel disfunction and vaccines for other diseases.... 

 

 Why would you jump straight to vaccines, and not the wider diet/environment (too many anti-bacterial chemicals used in the house, HFC in the diet, chemical pesticide residue on vegetables etc). All of that other stuff happens every days and these kids are literally swimming in it, while the vaccine is just a tiny drop in the ocean. I just personally cannot see how it can be linked.

 

But if good evidence comes up to show otherwise I'll happily stand corrected on that too. Actually if it were vaccines causing this it'd be so much easier to fix than all the other environmental stuff. 

Thank you for taking the time to do a bit more reading, and for keeping an open mind on the autism/bowel disfunction correlation.

 

Please put yourself in my shoes, and the shoes of every autism mom who has noticed this correlation for the last 25 years or so.

 

Can you understand what a NIGHTMARE it has been to convince our pediatricians that our autistic children actually had painful and severe bowel disfunction issues?

 

Do you understand that we were ALL told by our doctors that this could not be so because there was no "good evidence" (as in peer-reviewed studies) to support our anecdotal evidence?  Just imagine how much pain and suffering could have been avoided if we had not been blown off by our doctors.  It's also likely that in at least some cases of autism, children could have made great developmental progress if their doctors had not had a closed mind to the possibility of an autism/bowel disorder correlation.

 

Can you also see that you might be doing the same thing with the vaccine/autism correlation?  You are assuming that it could not be so because there is so much "good evidence" (as in pharma-controlled peer-reviewed studies) to the contrary.  Please remember that until quite recently, peer-reviewed (and highly flawed) studies concluded that there was no "good evidence" that special diets were helpful to autistic children, and that therefore, there was no autism/bowel disorder correlation.  

 

And now you can see that the parents were right all along.

 

Why can't you see that we might also be right about the vaccine/autism correlation as well, even if the majority of the (flawed) mainstream studies (with serious conflicts of interest) don't show evidence of harm?

 

Most of us are not saying that vaccines cause every case of autism, or that every child is harmed by vaccines. We're not "jumping straight to vaccines;"  WE ARE REPORTING WHAT WE HAVE OBSERVED.  And along the way, we have found some science that supports what we have observed.    It's not like mainstream science has never ever been wrong, you know--but you do seem to be making an assumption that it can't be, in this case.

 

And we are not dismissing the other possible factors you mention, either.  I'm sure that for at least some autistic children, they are factors as well.  But vaccines seem to be a stronger likelihood, based on the science I've seen, and the number of parents whose observations exactly match my own.

 

We autism parents are saying pretty much what we said about the autism/bowel disfunction correlation.  We are saying that we saw OUR child's reaction to vaccines, the same way that we have been saying that we saw OUR child's reaction to gluten, or casein, or peanuts, or antibiotics, etc.  WE have our "anecdata" (which often involves detailed and dated notes, charts, and video footage of before-and-after vaccine days), but the "scientific" community continues to blow us off for both vaccine/autism correlation and autism/bowel disorder correlation.

 

Wouldn't you agree that the most scientific thing to do here would be to study the autistic kids whose parents observed a correlation with vaccines?

 

Wouldn't it be more scientific to look for a genetic factor in autism in the kids who are having the same vaccine reactions and the same intestinal symptoms, rather than in the entire autistic population?

 

Just out of curiosity, how many before-and-after videos would it take to convince you that this is a possibility?  I'm talking about video footage of a neurotypical, conversational, responsive child the day before vaccination, compared with video footage of a screeching, toe-walking, spinning, flapping, head-banging,

non-responsive child with no eye contact, taken the day after vaccination.

 

At what point do "scientific, peer-reviewed studies" (that were purposely set up to NOT show a vaccine/autism correlation and then published in a pharma-funded journal) trump such anecdotal evidence?


What if it were your child in the video?

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Old 04-29-2013, 09:24 PM
 
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I am a little out of my knowledge-base on this one (I do not know much about gut issues and vaccines, so I will be subbing).

 

I find it odd though - if scientists think it is possible for a vaccine to help those with autism, why don't they think it is possible for vaccines to trigger autism in some people?   

 

That is because the vaccine isn't for autism at all. It is for a bacteria, Clostridium bolteae. Autistic people are often infected by this bacteria for some reason, but really anyone could be infected by it.

 

Vaccines don't cause Clostridium bolteae because they don't contain it. Just like vaccines don't give you, say, strep throat or something. That wouldn't make sense.

 

However, a vaccine against Clostridium bolteae could help someone's body fight it if it started invading their immune system.

 

Make sense?

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Old 04-30-2013, 05:12 AM
 
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 i don't see that as an option for pharma anytime in my lifetime.  

I'm not that pessimistic, I do have hope in my lifetime, the numbers will be so large it will need to be addressed winky.gif


 

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Old 04-30-2013, 08:01 AM
 
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easy to fix when any link between the two is denied constantly?  i doubt somehow pharma would print a retraction, 'oops, sorry we were wrong, vaccines can cause intestinal problems'  i don't see that as an option for pharma anytime in my lifetime.  The only fix is not to get any vaccines until it is proved they don't cause gut problems. Pharma won't go for that. 

 

I disagree. I see evidence (examples in history) that when good evidence of serious side effects is found vaccine recommendations are changed. The shift to IPV from OPV is an example of this. The recent problems over the H1N1 flu vax used in parts of Europe also illustrate it. If there were any good evidence of a link between vaccines and autism things would change. But over and over again no evidence is found. 

 

The thing with scientists is they change their opinions based on the current available evidence...


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Old 04-30-2013, 09:52 AM
 
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easy to fix when any link between the two is denied constantly? i doubt somehow pharma would print a retraction, 'oops, sorry we were wrong, vaccines can cause intestinal problems' i don't see that as an option for pharma anytime in my lifetime. The only fix is not to get any vaccines until it is proved they don't cause gut problems. Pharma won't go for that.

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I disagree. I see evidence (examples in history) that when good evidence of serious side effects is found vaccine recommendations are changed. The shift to IPV from OPV is an example of this. The recent problems over the H1N1 flu vax used in parts of Europe also illustrate it. If there were any good evidence of a link between vaccines and autism things would change. But over and over again no evidence is found. 

The thing with scientists is they change their opinions based on the current available evidence...

I disagree with both of you.

Emmy, I think the vaccine/gut problem is too complicated for them to figure out, the way they go about things these days. Unless the vaccines are directly introducing clostridium into the body, they're not gonna find a link with vaccines, because they're not looking at the vaccine as a trigger for an at-risk subset.

Prosciencemum, the thing with scientists is that they seem to only see what they want to see, especially if that's how they are trained.

Look at how you've phrased things yourself: "over and over again no evidence is found." That's not true. There IS evidence found, and you've ignored it in favor of the strongly marketed (and flawed) studies that either don't show evidence, or change their conclusions/marketing spiel to make it appear that they show no evidence.

I think we can all agree that ALL the studies, on both sides, have flaws.

But one side also has a history of massive cover-up of harm, as well as a ridiculous amount of control over what studies get funded, how they're run, how they're interpreted, how they're published, and how they're marketed. That side is also the most powerful political lobby in the US. Look how the Governer of Texas (whose political campaign was funded by Merck) tried to MANDATE Gardasil for 9-year-old girls.

It's well-known in the US scientific community that if you take on the pharmaceutical industry, you are committing career suicide.

And, really, the change from OPV to IPV is NOT evidence that serious side effects are always recognized and addressed. Its only evidence that THAT issue was addressed. There are plenty of examples to the contrary: Urabe MMR is the most obvious that I can think of off the top of my head, but I'm sure people will chime in with other examples. There is clearly an issue with female athletes and vaccines (particularly Gardasil, but also including flu shots) that has gone in admitted and unaddressed. And these are the same companies who said that Vioxx, Lipitor, etc were safe.

So let's be scientific in how WE look at the issue.

Yes, there is evidence that some serious health concerns were addressed for the polio vaccine. There is also evidence that other, equally serious health concerns were not even admitted, let alone addressed. There is evidence of cover-up, from both government and industry.

Yes, there are studies that conclude that there is no evidence of harm from vaccines. Those studies are seriously flawed, every single one.

There is are studies that conclude that there is evidence of harm. These studies are flawed as well, although from my perspective, not as outrageously as the pro-vaccine studies. Still, there are flaws.

The bottom line--the whole system is seriously flawed.

So what should we do?

Well, for starters, we should be looking at the children whose parents are screaming that they've observed an important link.

That hasn't been done.

The pro-vaccine studies have been purposely manipulated to NOT show a link; people likely to have a reaction are dropped from the study. Reactions that do occur often go unreported, particularly when reactions are only tracked fora few days, and subjects are told told to expect things like swelling and redness, NOT seizures, encephalopathy, neurological disorders, autoimmune reactions, etc.

There haven't been studies done with real (unvaxxed) controls. Don't parrot "but it would be unethical," because even if that were true (it's not, but that's an argument for another thread), you can't change the fact that it completely distorts the safety issue. If the vaccines are causing harm, just switching out one antigen for another and then comparing those two groups isn't going to show whether the other ingredients might be causing harm. And that renders the safety studies completely useless.

It needs to be admitted that there is still too much that remains unknown and/or incompletely understood about vaccine reactions.

You're a SCIENTIST, prosciencemum. You know what I'm saying is true.
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Old 05-01-2013, 03:11 PM
 
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I think some of you may enjoy this.  It is from thinkingmomsrevolution, from a mother who believes vaccines contributed to her sons autism, and what she thinks of the possible new vaccine.

 

http://thinkingmomsrevolution.com/a-vaccine-for-vaccine-damage/


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

Book and herb loving mama to 1 preteen and 2 teens (when did that happen?).  We travel, go to school, homeschool, live rurally, eat our veggies, spend too much time...

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