New here, what do you guys think about this woman who regrets not vaccinating? - Page 4 - Mothering Forums
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#91 of 119 Old 05-01-2013, 03:12 PM
 
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It doesn't matter what he says on Facebook? Really? That's one of the more wtf statements I've seen on here. Why in the world do his public statements outside of his published books not matter?

He's probably more an example of how the labels pro and anti vax just don't work very well. My bigger issue is he's not very well informed and misrepresents the issues in his book. I don't think it's intentional, I just don't think he knows any better.

An MD who is not very well informed?!?! How can that be?!

If *this* MD is not well informed, how many others are also lacking information?

If *this* MD is not well informed, pediatricians who claim that a child is not having a vaccine reaction might *also* be misinformed.

If *this* MD is not well informed, then doctors who claim a patient can not *possibly* have x disease, because (s)he was vaccinated for x disease might *also* be misinformed.

The argument of "trust your doctor to be better informed than you could *possibly* be" just went out the window!!!!
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#92 of 119 Old 05-01-2013, 03:45 PM
 
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Yah, always best not to rely n a single individual too much, md or otherwise, and look instead at scientific consensus and recommendations by groups of experts like aap and acip.
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#93 of 119 Old 05-01-2013, 03:46 PM
 
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Double post.
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#94 of 119 Old 05-01-2013, 03:53 PM
 
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Yah, always best not to rely n a single individual too much, md or otherwise, and look instead at scientific consensus and recommendations by groups of experts like aap and acip.

Bolding mine.  Except on circ.  wink1.gif  


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#95 of 119 Old 05-01-2013, 04:00 PM
 
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The aap does not recommend routine infant circumcision.
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#96 of 119 Old 05-01-2013, 04:14 PM
 
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the American Academy of Pediatrics found the health benefits of newborn male circumcision outweigh the risks, but the benefits are not great enough to recommend universal newborn circumcision.

They still believe the benefits outweigh the risks though.


               "Those who are able to see beyond the shadows and lies of their culture will never be understood, let alone believed, by the masses."

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#97 of 119 Old 05-01-2013, 04:20 PM
 
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They still believe the benefits outweigh the risks though.

And that's enough for me to distrust them. Thanks, Becky. You beat me to it!
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#98 of 119 Old 05-01-2013, 04:24 PM
 
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Yah, always best not to rely n a single individual too much, md or otherwise, and look instead at scientific consensus and recommendations by groups of experts like aap and acip.

Groups can be in error, too. Again, tobacco companies had their "scientific experts", too.
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#99 of 119 Old 05-01-2013, 04:28 PM
 
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Of course groups can be in error. I just think its less likely. Tobacco companies had their experts but they did NOT have the scientific consensus on their side.
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#100 of 119 Old 05-01-2013, 05:04 PM
 
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First, the AAP recommends 3rd party reimbursement for Circumcision AND they say the benfits outweigh the risks. It is relevant here because the more extreme Circ proponents refer to it as a 'surgical vaccine'.

 

Also, Tobacco Experts DID have scientific consensus on their side for a long time. My mother was allowed to smoke while working as a nurse in a hospital in the late 1970s and early 1980s. So were all of her hospital employers flagrantly flouting the scientific consensus? For a long time, the idea was @ the highest levels that you 'couldn't prove' that smoking caused lung cancer.

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#101 of 119 Old 05-01-2013, 05:06 PM
 
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The AAP and the ACIP both have SERIOUS and I mean SERIOUS Conflicts of Interest. As well as their own hides & paradigm to protect. The consensus is actually clear about whether Conflicts of Interest affect human behavior. The science there is so clear: they absolutely and always DO influence human behavior.

 

If I were a mother in Dr. Samelweiss' time, I would have much rather had him as my physican than the vast majority who rejected germ theory. Because if I were Dr. S's patient I wouldn't have died from Purpureal Sepsis (Childbed Fever). In history, a few lone wolves have ALWAYS led the way, with the pack and certainly beurecrats (sp) being dragged behind. 

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#102 of 119 Old 05-01-2013, 05:12 PM
 
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also AAP also had the pesky female circ problem in 2010 but they revised themselves


 

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#103 of 119 Old 05-01-2013, 08:08 PM
 
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also AAP also had the pesky female circ problem in 2010 but they revised themselves

???
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#104 of 119 Old 05-01-2013, 10:01 PM
 
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Of course groups can be in error. I just think its less likely. Tobacco companies had their experts but they did NOT have the scientific consensus on their side.

What evidence do you have to support this statement?
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#105 of 119 Old 05-02-2013, 03:45 AM
 
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???

you didn't know?

 

 

they were for it before the were against it ~ it's just a little "nick"!

 

 

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/07/health/policy/07cuts.html?_r=0

 

In a controversial change to a longstanding policy concerning the practice of female circumcision in some African and Asian cultures, the American Academy of Pediatrics is suggesting that American doctors be given permission to perform a ceremonial pinprick or “nick” on girls from these cultures if it would keep their families from sending them overseas for the full circumcision.

 

 

http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/05/27/AAP.retracts.female.genital.cutting/index.html

 

 

The American Academy of Pediatrics has rescinded a controversial policy statement raising the idea that doctors in some communities should be able to substitute demands for female genital cutting with a harmless clitoral "pricking" procedure.

"We retracted the policy because it is important that the world health community understands the AAP is totally opposed to all forms of female genital cutting, both here in the U.S. and anywhere else in the world," said AAP President Judith S. Palfrey.


 

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#106 of 119 Old 05-02-2013, 06:08 AM
 
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Wow, the words "harmless" and "clitoral pricking" should not be in the same sentence!  Harmless?

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               "Those who are able to see beyond the shadows and lies of their culture will never be understood, let alone believed, by the masses."

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#107 of 119 Old 05-02-2013, 07:33 AM
 
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The AAP revealed themselves then (and in their recent reversal on Circ where they endorse 3rd party payment) to be basically nothing more than a Trade Group that represents the financial interests of its members.

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#108 of 119 Old 05-02-2013, 08:25 AM
 
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Have you actually fact checked his various claims, or did you just role with it?  There are a lot of misleading statements, if not outright falsehoods.  Not at all surprised we got different things out of it, though :)

 

I do think he tries to take a more moderate view and ultimately supports parental choice.  I certainly wouldn't call him vehemently anti vax, either.  I think he's ultimately pro business, and he was one of the first to realize there was money to be made on this issue.

Please enlighten us. Which statements are misleading and which are falsehoods. Please be specific.


If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#109 of 119 Old 05-02-2013, 10:29 AM
 
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The way he presents the risks of the various diseases and uses VAERS is completely misleading, for one.  The research he presents on aluminum.  That's just off the top of my head.  We've been through all this before.  

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#110 of 119 Old 05-02-2013, 10:32 AM
 
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Not to mention the completely baseless claim that his alternative schedule is any safer. It's baked by zero research or even credible scientific theory.

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#111 of 119 Old 05-02-2013, 10:39 AM
 
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The way he presents the risks of the various diseases and uses VAERS is completely misleading, for one.  The research he presents on aluminum.  That's just off the top of my head.  We've been through all this before.  

Ok doesn't really answer my question but I get that's just off the top of your head and not specific at all and I also get you don't want to discuss it.... I hadn't been though this before...perhaps you could link to a previous thread about how misinformed Dr. Bob is??


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#112 of 119 Old 05-02-2013, 11:19 AM
 
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First, to insinuate Dr Bob Sears is becoming a millionaire off ONE reasonably priced BOOK is patently false. Also his alternative schedule is based on Aluminum & it should be up to each parent to decide where they stand on the Safety of Aluminum Adjuvants. He is the only one who even gives us anything resembling a choice.

I love it when people say 'we shouldn't use VAERS data'. Um it is the largest data set available & is still under inclusive. Also the infamous Incredible Hulk incident proved that the database is actually tightly monitored & that fallacious reports are swiftly investigated.
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#113 of 119 Old 05-02-2013, 11:21 AM
 
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And let's all remember that Dr. Sears has a Column on MDC & is a valuable contributor here. If you are so convinced his claims are baseless, I would advise against frequenting a Message Board which endorses his voice & work!
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#114 of 119 Old 05-02-2013, 11:23 AM
 
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 I also get you don't want to discuss it.... I hadn't been though this before...perhaps you could link to a previous thread about how misinformed Dr. Bob is??

Fwiw,  I either missed it or do not remember it…..

 

The only thing I remeber Rachel saying when quizzed on why she did not like him was referring to some skeptic site.

 

ETA:  I am not trying to put you on the spot, Rachel.  You do say you dislike Dr. Sears a far bit, and if you want to say it, it would be nice to back it up with why on a thread one day.  It does not have to be today.  My 2 cents. 


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#115 of 119 Old 05-02-2013, 11:31 AM
 
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Not to mention the completely baseless claim that his alternative schedule is any safer. It's baked by zero research or even credible scientific theory.

While neither agreeing nor disagreeing… I will say not all vaccine issues are related to science. 

 

His alternative schedule offers parents a template for another option.  I don't get why anyone would be against parental choice.  The risk of one size fits all schedules and no choice is that parents might go non-vax (which is fine with me).  


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#116 of 119 Old 05-02-2013, 03:23 PM
 
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While neither agreeing nor disagreeing… I will say not all vaccine issues are related to science. 


Well that says it all.

I'll try to come up with a more comprehensive post later. There is a great post on I think sciencebasedmedicine.org that fact checks the book. That's probably what I linked before.

Dinah he's making money off a lot more than just the book. It's not about using or not using VAERS, it's about how you use it. Well fraudulent reports might get weeded out, by nature there's NO effort made to distinguish between events due to random chance and actual causation.
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#117 of 119 Old 05-02-2013, 08:37 PM
 
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Right and that is EXACTLY how it should be: in a SCIENCE BASED STUDY, all adverse effects are reported & published in the research, and the frequency is what determines causation. There is never a tighter standard applied to Causation than in Vax Spin. I absolutely demand that vaccines be held to the same standard as other pharmaceuticals. It is not scientific to brush side effects off as 'coincidences' but Medical Professionals in the US do this to parents all day every day. Very little even makes it into VAERS.

 

Science Based Medicine (AKA Orac) is not a valid source here. Unless you want to consider Mercola a valid source. Because David Gorski is not one iota more 'middle of the road' or 'moderate' than Mercola. So just Let me Know, because the next time Gorski is referenced as anything resembling valid, it will be the Kirby, Fischer, Mercola, Crosby, Evidence of Harm hour here on MDC!

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#118 of 119 Old 05-02-2013, 08:41 PM
 
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And do tell, what other money is he making? He runs a medical practice, one that does not bill insurance, which imposes an inherent limitation on his patient load. When I was in SoCal last, he was accepting new patients, which means he was NOT booked to capacity. He has one book. He doesn't do a lot of public speaking, and this MDC gig can't be very lucrative @ all.

 

To say that Paul Offit (who speaks TONS and makes plenty of other work) does not have a COI but Dr. Sears does, is frankly just laughable.

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#119 of 119 Old 05-03-2013, 10:10 AM
 
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 Well fraudulent reports might get weeded out, by nature there's NO effort made to distinguish between events due to random chance and actual causation.

GREAT POINT!  

There is absolutely NO effort by the vaccine manufacturers to distinguish between events due to random chance (like, not getting flu symptoms because one's immune system was actually functioning properly) and actual causation (like, they SAY that the flu shot kept you from getting the flu when you wouldn't have gotten it anyway).

 

But somehow, none of the pharma-directed fraudulent reports of vaccine safety/efficacy got weeded out. How mysterious....

 

You can read more about the pharma-directed fraudulent reports of vaccine safety/efficacy at www.fourteenstudies.org

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