New here, what do you guys think about this woman who regrets not vaccinating? - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 119 Old 04-25-2013, 12:27 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm currently researching my options but this woman's post is pretty convincing.  What do you guys think?

 

http://m.guardiannews.com/commentisfree/2013/apr/24/wish-my-daughter-vaccinated


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#2 of 119 Old 04-25-2013, 01:22 PM
 
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I did not find it too convincing.

 

Most of her arguments came down to personal anecdotes and herd immunity arguments (she even brings up diseases such as diptheria…which is unlikely to stage a comback even if we all stopped vaccinating).  

 

Personal reasons aside  (such as your child getting a VAD or sufferring from a vaccine reaction) , I will also say that *I* don't find it very convincing when someone completely switches side in short order (and her baby is no more than 2).    I just don't think it happens very often.  People often move a bit - non-vax to sel/del or pro-vax to sel/delayed/on hold while in research mode.  But a full switch?  Nah.   When it does happen, I often wonder how well researched the initial decision was.  


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#3 of 119 Old 04-25-2013, 01:52 PM
 
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The article jumps around a lot; it just doesn't flow well. 

 

I figured out that her daughter got pertussis. Did she get anything else? Is she ok now?

 

She had her mom take her daughter to get shots because she was squeamish; that part seems strange to me too.


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#4 of 119 Old 04-25-2013, 02:18 PM
 
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Just to add to my previous post…..

 

I find it odd she cannot explain why she was non-vax before.  It backs up my point that her non-vax convictions were probably not that firmly held.  


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#5 of 119 Old 04-25-2013, 02:18 PM
 
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I don't know what you mean by convincing? Do you mean reading this has convinced you to vaccinate? If so, I'm surprised you haven't been already given that pieces like this are a dime a dozen, and the reasons given here are routinely given by most mainstream media outlets during outbreaks of any VAD.

 

It's not like you wouldn't have heard this dozens and dozens of times before......

 

There are anecdotal stories all over the internet of parents who children have been harmed by their vaccinations. Do you find that equally convincing?


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#6 of 119 Old 04-25-2013, 02:56 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I am just starting the research so I haven't heard of many stories where a person was very anti vaccine and then turned completely pro vaccine.  So her story was interesting for me. 

 

As for vaccine reaction stories, it depends. It seems like most of the ones I hear are pretty mild reactions. Fever and increased fussiness for a few days is one of the more common reactions I see listed.  I would much prefer that over months of intense coughing and vomiting and needing inhalers etc. 

 

I also did not realize that diptheria was fatal in 1 of 5 cases even with modern medical treatment.  That is pretty scary!  Then again the cases of children having seizures after a vaccination are scary as well.  My mother had a cousin that died of meningitis about 25 years ago so that scares me as well. 

 

I'm just really confused at this point as to what I should do. My son is almost a year old and we have been vaccinating up to this point but never really looked into it.

 

One question I do have though is I have heard just through browsing these forums for a few days where members say something to the effect of " Ask your mother/grandmother what they think about measles. They will tell you that it is just a normal childhood disease and not a big deal."  But I wonder what those same grandparents would say if you asked them about Polio?  I'm sure if they would say what a horrible disease it was and that of course you should vaccinate against it. It just seems contradictory to me to only take their advice when it falls into a certain point of view. 

 

Anyway, thanks for listening to my rant. 


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#7 of 119 Old 04-25-2013, 03:41 PM
 
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As for vaccine reaction stories, it depends. It seems like most of the ones I hear are pretty mild reactions. Fever and increased fussiness for a few days is one of the more common reactions I see listed.  I would much prefer that over months of intense coughing and vomiting and needing inhalers etc. 

 

If you ask on non-vax for anecdotes on vaccines reactions, you will mostly likely get an earful of stories.   Most people do not worry about fussiness or mild fever - it is serious short term reactions such as seizures, anaphylaxis, etc that are worrisome.  Even more worrisome is the concern  that vaccine can contribute to a host of disorders.  Many people report they have seen children develop neurological issues that were eventually labeled autism after a vaccine.  This is listed as a possibility on vaccine inserts, and numerous court cases have awarded parents money for vaccine injuries.

 

I also did not realize that diphtheria was fatal in 1 of 5 cases even with modern medical treatment.  That is pretty scary!  Then again the cases of children having seizures after a vaccination are scary as well.  My mother had a cousin that died of meningitis about 25 years ago so that scares me as well. 

 

Diphtheria is scary. I wouldn't want it.  It is also a disease of overcrowding and poor sanitation.  It is very unlikely to return in wealthy countries- even if everyone stopped vaxxing. There are virtually no cases of diphtheria in wealthy countries. Meningitis is scary - and IIRC takes the lives of about 1/100 000.  I understand that vax a bit more.  Vaccine decisions do not have  to be all or nothing. 

 

I'm just really confused at this point as to what I should do. My son is almost a year old and we have been vaccinating up to this point but never really looked into it.

 

You could delay until you figure it out.  You can easily vax later, you can never undo a vaccine.

 

One question I do have though is I have heard just through browsing these forums for a few days where members say something to the effect of " Ask your mother/grandmother what they think about measles. They will tell you that it is just a normal childhood disease and not a big deal."  But I wonder what those same grandparents would say if you asked them about Polio?  I'm sure if they would say what a horrible disease it was and that of course you should vaccinate against it. It just seems contradictory to me to only take their advice when it falls into a certain point of view.

 

I love my mom - but I would not really listen to her on disease analysis from 50 years ago.  Memories are weird things, and media has a lot to play in how we process information. I would also add this goes two ways - if you think elders opinions should be weighed in todays vaccine decisions - then why are you vaxxing for measles if they did not think it was scary?

 

Anyway, thanks for listening to my rant. 


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#8 of 119 Old 04-25-2013, 03:55 PM
 
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1) She is luck

 

2) She is foolish to have  thought that organic produce and breastfeeding would protect her kids. Look at Middle Ages. Everyone ate organic and nurse.

 

3) I am glad she changed her mind

 

 

4) I am glad that her child did not suffer as much as this one

 

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10860122

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#9 of 119 Old 04-25-2013, 03:59 PM
 
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This is a good scientific blog. You can search it for all sort of info on vaccines.

 

 

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/

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#10 of 119 Old 04-25-2013, 04:22 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Alenushka View Post

This is a good scientific blog. You can search it for all sort of info on vaccines.

 

 

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/

That is a skeptic blog.  They hate non-vaxxing, which hardly makes them unbaised - which is what a newbie might want.

 

Myself, I would start with:

 

CDC Pink book - be sure to read the appendix

Dr. Sears Vaccine book - he is pro-vax, but he does not overly whitewash things, and he is pro alternative schedules.

NVIC -  it is non-vax, it is usually well cited, and will balance the CDC out a bit.


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#11 of 119 Old 04-25-2013, 04:36 PM
 
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How many of us had friends die when we were growing up? I had 1 classmate who died, and that was because of a stupid stunt involving hanging onto a car that was in motion. I had a cousin who died as a result of complications caused by leukemia. That's the sum total of individuals I knew who died in childhood.

I am skeptical.
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#12 of 119 Old 04-25-2013, 04:44 PM
 
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4) I am glad that her child did not suffer as much as this one

 

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10860122

That is an awful story -but it is also extremely unlikely. Let's look at some numbers.  According to the CDC there are about 30 cases per year of tetanus in the USA  (1/2 of which are in people over 50) and about 3-4 deaths.  Out of 330 000 000 people. About 40% of adults are not up to date on tetanus booster, btw, so this figure is with a huge number of adults roaming around unvaxxed.   Don't most vaccines carry a 1/1 million chance of anaphylaxis reaction?  It could very well be possible your chances of having an anaphylactic reaction to the vax is higher than your chances of getting tetanus. Almost no one gets tetanus. 


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#13 of 119 Old 04-25-2013, 05:10 PM
 
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2) She is foolish to have  thought that organic produce and breastfeeding would protect her kids. Look at Middle Ages. Everyone ate organic and nurse.

In the Middle Ages, they did not have the infrastructure we have now. People lived in squalor. Yeah, they had organic food when they could get it or grow it but also lived in awful conditions and did not know as much about hygiene as is known now. They also did not have the kind of medical care we have now. So we can't really compare the state of health in the Middle Ages to modern times.

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#14 of 119 Old 04-25-2013, 05:19 PM
 
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How many of us had friends die when we were growing up? I had 1 classmate who died, and that was because of a stupid stunt involving hanging onto a car that was in motion. I had a cousin who died as a result of complications caused by leukemia. That's the sum total of individuals I knew who died in childhood.

I am skeptical.


I had one friend get hit by a care (he was also mid-stunt at the time), and there were a couple of suicides in my high-school (one involving a car).  So yeah, I consider cars and depression to be bigger threats to my children than diphtheria or polio.  It's theoretically possible for them to catch those, but the risk is pretty darn small. 

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#15 of 119 Old 04-25-2013, 08:46 PM
 
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Dr sears is not "pro vax"
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#16 of 119 Old 04-25-2013, 09:00 PM
 
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Okay, can we get this out there? ORAC is not an objective or science based source. He is an eccentric guy, that has Pharma ties and rants a lot on his blog. He is a clown, he is to Vax Science like Dr. Amy is to Homebirth. Just like she refuses to cop to the more glaring abuses of Obstetrics, he refuses to be honest about Vax side effects.

 

If y'all stop referencing him, I will refrain from posting Barbara Loe & AoA. If you keep posting him as some type of objective 'science' I will consider it 'game on' to post the least objective anti sources I can find, and that is a promise!

 

I hold myself to a high standard of sober, accurate debate on here and stay away from flagrantly biased sources. I expect y'all to do the same.

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#17 of 119 Old 04-25-2013, 09:05 PM
 
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Dr. Sears make about 1000x more effort to present both sides and actually inform parents than ORAC on his very best day. Where is David Gorski's book where he discusses side effects as well as ingredients and benefits? No, he just spends all day calling people stupid and talking about 'woo'.

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#18 of 119 Old 04-25-2013, 09:49 PM
 
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I think its silly to regret not vaccinating because vaccines are so toxic and harmful that its really common for people to regret vaccinating and they wish they never vaccinated.

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#19 of 119 Old 04-25-2013, 09:54 PM
 
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It is also ridiculous to talk about 'vaccinating' as if it were a once and done type decision. That is based on a very out dated theory that used to be in vogue in the 50s and 60s that you were 'building an immune system' in childhood. NOW we know that no vax lasts more than 5 years, so vaccination is actually a continual decision that will have to be made over and over again during the lifespan and continued by the child after s/he is old enough for informed consent themselves . . . 

 

Even today, many mothers act like the vax decision is only made during the 0-2 years and then they are done. Nope! It has to be made over and over and over again, for each vax that is available now and all the ones that will hit the market in the next few years (Pharma identifies it as a *major* growth area, so it is incredibly naive to think that the vaxes we have now are all we will ever have, the amount of vaxes available and recommended will likely (IMO) multiply by @ least 1.5 in the next decade, if not double).

 

It is like the (relatively few) men who say 'they regret not being circumcised as an infant'. Well buddy: Urologists are standing by AND they will offer you Vicodin/Oxycontin & general anesthesia, both of which you would have been denied as an infant! In this case, if a mama truly regrets 'not vaccinating', there are doctors all over the country that would LOVE to catch your child/teen up today!

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#20 of 119 Old 04-25-2013, 11:47 PM
 
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Dr sears is not "pro vax"

Have you read his book? All he does is say all the side effects and benefits of the vaxes and then explains the nature of all the diseases. I believe he says every vax is worth it except, if I remember correctly, the chicken pox vax. He also gives an optional delayed schedule. This is really what all doctors should be doing. It's called "informed consent".

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#21 of 119 Old 04-26-2013, 06:47 AM
 
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Yes I've read his book.

What are oracs pharmacy ties? What has he claimed or said that isn't science based? I realize he's brusque and not exactly warm and fuzzy, but he generally cites his claims extremely well with primary sources.
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#22 of 119 Old 04-26-2013, 06:48 AM
 
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And it's absolutely false that no vaccine lasts more than five years. That's total nonsense.
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#23 of 119 Old 04-26-2013, 07:17 AM
 
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1) She is luck

 

2) She is foolish to have  thought that organic produce and breastfeeding would protect her kids. Look at Middle Ages. Everyone ate organic and nurse.

 

3) I am glad she changed her mind

 

 

4) I am glad that her child did not suffer as much as this one

 

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10860122

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#24 of 119 Old 04-26-2013, 08:22 AM
 
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Which Vaccine lasts more than 5 years w/I requiring a booster. Do tell. Tetanus lasts the longest (or is currently thought to) but it is paired with a Vax (aP) that may need a booster every 2-3 years.

Please regarding ORAC's claims: when you can find an actual 'claim' in the long unbroken paragraphs of name calling & ranting.

So that is fine then: if he is going to be considered an Objective source, then *watch out* because Dr. Mercola & Barbara Loe & Dan Olmstead & David Kirby are about to be cited by me on here all day long! Mercola also uses Citations, amply.
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#25 of 119 Old 04-26-2013, 08:24 AM
 
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And puhleeeze about ORAC being 'not warm & fuzzy' like I need to be coddled! Hahaha! Name calling isn't 'not warm & fuzzy', it is not intellectual, it is ad hominem (so fallacious) & it is third grade (so immature).
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#26 of 119 Old 04-26-2013, 09:10 AM
 
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But since the ProVax Mothering Brigade has decided that we are going to link to talking heads instead of Peer Reviewed Research from PubMed, here's a pretty comprehensive summary of Gorski's COI: http://www.ageofautism.com/2010/06/david-gorskis-financial-pharma-ties-what-he-didnt-tell-you.html

And do try to assail my source, it is not one iota more questionable that Respectful Insolence, in fact, I find it to be less questionable!
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#27 of 119 Old 04-26-2013, 10:27 AM
 
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But since the ProVax Mothering Brigade has decided that we are going to link to talking heads instead of Peer Reviewed Research from PubMed, here's a pretty comprehensive summary of Gorski's COI: http://www.ageofautism.com/2010/06/david-gorskis-financial-pharma-ties-what-he-didnt-tell-you.html

Burned!!!

Excellent article, worth a read!


 
 
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#28 of 119 Old 04-26-2013, 11:47 AM
 
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"In other words, David Gorski’s entire research focus, including a patent still listed in his name for which he admits receiving drug company money, ties into finding new uses for a drug made by Sanofi-Aventis, while the university housing his lab is in partnership with the company. HERE "

 

Interesting how Gorski tries to talk his way out of it:

"
In any case, even if I had known [of Riluzole as a possible treatment for ASD], it still wouldn’t have been a COI. I’m not a neurologist, and I don’t treat ASD or OCD. I’m never going to be doing research with Riluzole in children with ASD, OCD, or both.”"

 

Well, that's rather like a tobacco company funding a university research program, who then hires a researcher to look at treatments for, say, breast cancer.  The researcher insists that he has no conflicts of interest, saying that he had no idea that the drug he's been testing is being considered as a possible treatment for lung cancer, and it's not a conflict of interest because he's not an oncologist, and he's never going to be doing research with lung cancer or COPD, and that all available research by the tobacco companies indicate that cigarettes do not cause cancer, and nicotine is not addictive.

 

Of course, we all know that the hypothetical researcher will immediately have all his funding pulled if he criticizes the tobacco company who funds the university's research program...
 

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#29 of 119 Old 04-26-2013, 12:35 PM
 
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And here's David Gorski's Funding Disclosure from his blog: 

 

 

Quote:
FINANCIAL AND CONFLICT OF INTEREST DISCLOSURES: Dr. Gorski has been funded over the last decade by institutional funds, the Department of Defense, the National Cancer Institute, the ASCO Foundation, and the Breast Cancer Research Foundation. He has recently held a small grant (€30,000) from Bayer HealthCare through its Grants4Targets program, a fact that will no doubt bring forth more criticism. Never mind that the grant expired nearly a year ago. Before that small seed grant, so bereft of pharmaceutical funding was Dr. Gorski that before his talks, as part of his disclosures, he often joked that no pharmaceutical company was interested enough in his research to want to give him any money. For everything else, however, like most biomedical scientists in academia, Dr. Gorski must beg the NIH and other granting agencies for the money to keep his lab going. Please be aware that he does also write elsewhere for a small monthly payment.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/editorial-staff/david-h-gorski-md-phd-managing-editor/


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#30 of 119 Old 04-26-2013, 12:38 PM
 
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I wasn't that impressed by the article in the Guardian which started this thread. 

 

I liked this one much better by physicist Jon Butterworth on his take on the debate and the decision he and his wife made when their son was due for the MMR: http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/life-and-physics/2013/apr/19/mmr

 

I could relate with that much more because he went in and did the research really carefully, and found it a really hard decision and admits that:

 

 

 

Quote:

we were in an agony of indecision. In the end it took several days' research to decide what to do. This involved downloading academic papers from outside my own field and desperately trying to understand them. It meant doing it at work, because anyone without academic library access would have had to pay huge amounts for the privilege of reading that publicly funded research. It meant forming a judgement, and there was no escape, no easy way out, because there were risks in all decisions.

This was very frightening.

In the end, even to a physicist and a chemist, the medical evidence was overwhelming. He got his MMR. But it was hard.

 

If anything I've read which the media have published because of the (now more than 800) possible measles cases in Wales is worth reading I think it's that one.


Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

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