19 Things to Know Before Vaccination - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 73 Old 04-25-2013, 12:42 PM - Thread Starter
 
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http://blog.naturalhealthyconcepts.com/2013/04/18/19-things-you-dont-know-about-vaccines/

 

 

An interesting blog post about vaccinations and what you should and might not know. 

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#2 of 73 Old 04-25-2013, 03:19 PM
 
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Interesting in how awful it is.

 

For example, she says:

 

 

 

Quote:
Today, children receive up to 49 doses of 14 vaccines before age six. That’s more than 22 times the number of vaccines given in 1983.  An increase of 2,286% vaccinations!  By the time your kids are 18 yrs., they’ll receive 70 doses of 18 types of vaccines.

 

 

According to the CDC 1983 schedule (here: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/images/schedule1983s.jpg) , there were 22 on the schedule before age 6.  22 times that is 484, not 49.  An increase of 2286% of 22 is 524.92.

 

Math fail.

 

The rest of her "facts" are just as inaccurate.

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#3 of 73 Old 04-26-2013, 06:40 AM
 
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Lots of inaccuracies.  But more troubling to me, is that this is a blog associated with a store to purchase items.  I am always leary of stores that are telling me what I need and don't need.  Usually it amounts to You need what we sell, you don't need what we don't.

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#4 of 73 Old 04-26-2013, 07:44 AM
 
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Lots of inaccuracies.  But more troubling to me, is that this is a blog associated with a store to purchase items.  I am always leary of stores that are telling me what I need and don't need.  Usually it amounts to You need what we sell, you don't need what we don't.

There are some points I thought were sloppy or needed rewording.   I wish they had spent a bit more time fact-checking and getting names right, as many of the points are fairly valid, even if specifics are not. 

 

As per the rest - lol.gif

 

Most vaccine studies that are used by mainstream sources of vaccine information are produced by vaccine manufacturers.  Pharmacy reps. sit on CDC panels. Lobby groups.  Revolving door between government and pharma managers etc, etc, etc.  

 

I half agree with you - I am not a fan of sites selling stuff and also producing articles.  There always is that question - is conflict of interest an issue here?  I do prefer sites that do not sell things. 

 

However, I do not think any pro-vaxxer has a leg to stand on if they start talking about conflict of interest.  Those who live in giant glass mansions should not throw stones at glass cottages.  

 

I would be interested to know how you reconcile the conflict of interest inherent in vaccine issues with your concerns around COI.

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#5 of 73 Old 04-26-2013, 08:09 AM
 
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It gives you some things to think about and has some good starting points for further research, but it seems to be a lot of scare mongering the other way this time.... 

 

Aborted fetal tissues? Really? That's starting to get old lol... fetal tissues are used in the testing/manufacturing/production process but they're not actually contained in the product being injected into people... it's very common to use human embryonic cells for many products designed for human consumption, not just pharmaceuticals.  

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#6 of 73 Old 04-26-2013, 08:09 AM
 
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It is fascinating to me how the author goes on and on about looking at ingredients of vaccines, while she's selling products that no one has ANY way of knowing what the actual ingredients are. Completely unregulated.
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#7 of 73 Old 04-26-2013, 08:16 AM
 
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Aborted fetal tissues? Really? That's starting to get old lol... fetal tissues are used in the testing/manufacturing/production process but they're not actually contained in the product being injected into people... it's very common to use human embryonic cells for many products designed for human consumption, not just pharmaceuticals.  

Some people are okay with vaccines or products produced from  fetal cell lines and some aren't.  I think it is a valid point to bring up in such a list as people have a right to know what they put in their bodies.  

 

Mainstream link on diploid cells:

http://www.immunizationinfo.org/issues/vaccine-components/human-fetal-links-some-vaccines

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#8 of 73 Old 04-26-2013, 08:37 AM
 
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Some people are okay with vaccines or products produced from  fetal cel lines and some aren't.  I think it is a valid point to bring up in such a list as people have a right to know what they put in their bodies.  

 

I don't disagree, but the information should be presented in a more honest way... this article makes it sound like they just grind up a baby, some horse blood and rabbit brains and inject it into people... which isn't exactly what happens. The baby, horse blood and rabbit brains aren't going into their bodies at all. 

 

I can understand that people have certain religious/moral/ethical views, but those people need to be extra careful and do their own research as to what they may be putting in their bodies, not just rely on someone with an agenda to bend and twist the truth to suit their cause... or better yet, just grow their own food/products because no matter how thorough someone is with their research, there is always that extra layer of the truth that companies aren't legally obligated to disclose... for instance, we have several stores in Canada (I'm not sure this is the same for the US), who claim their products are not tested on animals, however, every ingredient intended for human consumption in Canada is required to be tested on animals. For something to be labelled organic, it only has to be 95% organic (what the heck does that even mean??) if it's one ingredient. If it's a combination of several ingredients, it can be as low as 70% organic. 

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#9 of 73 Old 04-26-2013, 08:53 AM
 
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I don't disagree, but the information should be presented in a more honest way... this article makes it sound like they just grind up a baby, some horse blood and rabbit brains and inject it into people... which isn't exactly what happens. The baby, horse blood and rabbit brains aren't going into their bodies at all. 

 

 

No it doesn't - unless I missed a part?  It is pretty much a list, minus any discussing of grinding and the like ;)

 

It says this:

 

"Vaccines contain very questionable ingredients  like thimerosol which is 50% mercury (no it hasn’t been removed from all shots), aluminum, formaldehyde,  polysorbate 80, antibiotics, yeast protein, fetal bovine serum, monosodium glutamate, chick embryo cell culture, aborted fetal tissue (WI-38 human diploid lung fibroblasts), egg protein, latex rubber, Latham medium derived from bovine casein (think milk allergy!) monkey kidney cells, 2-phenoxyethanol, pig blood, horse blood, rabbit brain and many more!"

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#10 of 73 Old 04-26-2013, 09:22 AM
 
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No it doesn't - unless I missed a part?  It is pretty much a list, minus any discussing of grinding and the like ;)

 

It says this:

 

"Vaccines contain very questionable ingredients  like thimerosol which is 50% mercury (no it hasn’t been removed from all shots), aluminum, formaldehyde,  polysorbate 80, antibiotics, yeast protein, fetal bovine serum, monosodium glutamate, chick embryo cell culture, aborted fetal tissue (WI-38 human diploid lung fibroblasts), egg protein, latex rubber, Latham medium derived from bovine casein (think milk allergy!) monkey kidney cells, 2-phenoxyethanol, pig blood, horse blood, rabbit brain and many more!"

 

That's right, it says: 

 

Vaccines contain very questionable ingredients like thimerosol which is 50% mercury (no it hasn’t been removed from all shots), aluminum, formaldehyde,  polysorbate 80, antibiotics, yeast protein, fetal bovine serum, monosodium glutamate, chick embryo cell culture, aborted fetal tissue, (WI-38 human diploid lung fibroblasts), egg protein, latex rubber, Latham medium derived from bovine casein (think milk allergy!) monkey kidney cells, 2-phenoxyethanol, pig blood, horse blood, rabbit brain and many more!

 

Which is kind of inaccurate (I assumed the grinding part wink1.gif), the vaccines don't actually contain those things though, they're just used to produce viruses. Using the author's same logic, you can also say the vaccines contain pregnant moms, cowboys, bananas and petrie dishes because the fetus was in a woman, a cowboy was on the horse, the monkey ate a banana and the virus was in a petrie dish.

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#11 of 73 Old 04-26-2013, 09:32 AM
 
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Latham medium derived from bovine casein (think milk allergy!) monkey kidney cells, 2-phenoxyethanol, pig blood, horse blood, rabbit brain and many more!"

Key words "derived from". The author is correct, and it is up to the reader to know what that means.


 
 
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#12 of 73 Old 04-26-2013, 09:44 AM
 
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That's right, it says: 

 

Vaccines contain very questionable ingredients like thimerosol which is 50% mercury (no it hasn’t been removed from all shots), aluminum, formaldehyde,  polysorbate 80, antibiotics, yeast protein, fetal bovine serum, monosodium glutamate, chick embryo cell culture, aborted fetal tissue, (WI-38 human diploid lung fibroblasts), egg protein, latex rubber, Latham medium derived from bovine casein (think milk allergy!) monkey kidney cells, 2-phenoxyethanol, pig blood, horse blood, rabbit brain and many more!

 

Which is kind of inaccurate (I assumed the grinding part wink1.gif), the vaccines don't actually contain those things though, they're just used to produce viruses. Using the author's same logic, you can also say the vaccines contain pregnant moms, cowboys, bananas and petrie dishes because the fetus was in a woman, a cowboy was on the horse, the monkey ate a banana and the virus was in a petrie dish.

 

 

I think the whole issue is really complicated and you have to look at ingredients one by one (if you are so inclined) to decide what and how the ingredient is used.  It would also be nice to know how or if they worked together in any scary way, and the safety of giving such ingredients to babies.    

 

I would also add that we cannot assume the animal ingredients are used in the same way .  With with regards to humans is it fetal diploid cells, with pigs, for example, it is gelatin.  

 

To be honest, I do occasionally find list such as this a bit scare mongering.  However (and it is a big "however") I find the pro-vax POV on this equally or more distasteful.  It could be that lists such as these are made because everyone does have a right to know what is in vaccines, and these lists are rarely found or discussed on any mainstream pro-vax pamphlet; moreover the concern over ingredients is often totally whitewashed.  Ethyl mercury is  a neurotoxin, the aluminum in vaccines that a baby may receive on one day is above the  daily safety limits for aluminum, and use of human diploid cells is a ethical or relgious grey zones for some people

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#13 of 73 Old 04-26-2013, 10:21 AM - Thread Starter
 
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After doing some research on the CDC website I found that in 1983 children were vaccinated for 7 different diseases and illnesses. They received 10 total vaccinations (injection or oral) for a total of 22 doses. In 2013, children are vaccinated for 14 individual diseases and illnesses (including the yearly influenza vaccination.) In 2013 they receive 37 total vaccinations for 51 doses (again, this includes the yearly flu vaccination.)  

 

The math is a little off; however, the beauty of freedom of speech is that people are able to express their opinion while presenting information which the author in this case does. Almost all companies that write articles of some sort are selling something: a service, a product, etc. Even mothering.com sells advertising. At no point in this article does she claim to be an expert, she is presenting information she has researched and believes in.  

 

I personally found the article to be thought provoking and something the author is obviously passionate about. As a mother to a 3 year old little girl it makes me think twice about the vaccinations my daughter has received and could potentially receive in the future. I think it's important for all parents to be well-informed, and make informed decisions about what they believe is best for their child/children. 

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#14 of 73 Old 04-26-2013, 10:34 AM
 
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My point was just that this woman is saying these things are in the vaccines, which isn't true. The vaccines simply don't contain them.... the ingredient she says is in the vaccines, isn't. 

 

Everyone has a right to know exactly how vaccines are made, what ingredients are used and in what way, but that's an entirely separate issue... my only issue with the article is that there have been facts invented which just aren't true... everything else is debatable, the ethics, morality, etc of the use of these cells for research and production, the safety of the other ingredients such as neurotoxins which are actually in the vaccines, etc., but the debate about injecting aborted fetal tissue is invalid because that isn't what's happening. 

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#15 of 73 Old 04-26-2013, 10:35 AM
 
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I would be interested to know how you reconcile the conflict of interest inherent in vaccine issues with your concerns around COI?

dakotacakes…..in case this question was missed. 


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#16 of 73 Old 04-26-2013, 11:51 AM
 
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I would dismiss any sources that was selling products along with the research.  For example, if this was a blog post hailing the virtues of vaccines, or decrying the use of supplements and at the top was a retail store to purchase vaccines, I would discount that just as I discount a blog post decrying the use of vaccines that is in conjunction with a direct sales website for natural healing products and supplements.  I don't see anything to reconcile I do not trust information that is given via a store. 

 

I know the argument is that there is worse conflicts of interest in the vaccine world but it really is more removed.  For example,  Paul Offit he has a patent for rotavirus, he supports vaccinations.  However, I cannot purchase those vaccines via a web link from Paul Offit.  Rather, the research goes through the FDA multiple Peer reviews and many safety checks.  Then I go to the doctor discuss it with them, and they give a vaccination purchased from a pharmacutical company.  I see this conflict of interest  in a direct sales pitch online as much much stronger.  I understand few on this site will agree with that  It makes me wonder, considering as has been said the supplements sold on this website have no guarantees as to what is in them or their safety which also is completely hypocritical of the blog author.  I also  wonder a related question

 

How is it that the conflict of interest in vaccines is CONSTANTLY discussed.  Yet at the same time never mentioned on the flip side of things like this coming up?  Why are those who are critical of vaccines not upset by this huge glaring conflict of interest?   Rather things like this are routinely put out as "research" when in reality they are LITERALLY advertisements for online retail businesses.   On the flip side putting forward a peer reviewed medical article showing the safety of vaccines will be immediately discounted because one of the authors or the funding came from an organization with ties to a pharmaceutical company.  Just seems a bit hypocritical.  I cannot even imagine the outrage that would be expressed here if Merck was putting out research on the safety of vaccines and the dangers of supplements with a link to purchase vaccines and have them shipped to your door direct.

 

That said, the bigger issue is that most of the 19 things are not fact checked exaggerated and otherwise incorrect.

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#17 of 73 Old 04-26-2013, 12:34 PM
 
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Dakotacakes, I agree with you about sources selling the product along with the research.  Although I think that sometimes Mercola actually does some good research (in terms of looking at existing studies), I can't stand the way he uses the same fear-mongering techniques to sell his wares that Big Pharma does.

 

But--in the case of vaccines, we have the government basically selling both the product and research that supposedly tells us we need the product.  The flu shot is a great example.

 

The peer-review process, which is supposed to avoid conflict of interest, is actually rife with conflicts of interest.  The journals these "peer-reviewed" articles are published in are funded by the pharmaceutical industry.

 

Even the media is now largely funded by the pharmaceutical industry, particularly television.

 

The whole system is, I think, irretrievably broken.

 

I'm not saying that there aren't lifesaving drugs made by the pharmaceutical industry.Of course there are.  But when you look at all the pieces of the puzzle--the lies, the cover-ups, the emphasis on profits over health for products like Vioxx, Lipitor, anti-depressants, ADD meds, etc, and THEN you look at how many similar instances there are of lies, cover-ups, emphasis on profits with vaccines, you have to realize that it's similar to what happens in all big industries--banking, tobacco, etc.--they are all getting away with criminal behavior, people are suffering irreparable harm, and the government is unable to watchdog any of them.

 

So, no, it's not so simple as assuming my doctor reads all the scientific reviews (he doesn't, and according to him, no doctor has time to do so--they rely on the studies provided by the pharma rep), discussing options with him, and proceeding as though I were well-informed.  The only way to be well-informed is to read the studies, have the doctor read the studies, and THEN discuss--but tell me, do you think that is a likely scenario when the doctors see 5-10 patients an hour?  Is my doctor likely to be aware that people with my personal medical conditions have been excluded from the testing of these vaccines?

 

I am troubled that you seem to be unaware that the pharmaceutical industry does everything it can to hide problems due to its products, and also does everything it can to make its products appear far more effective than they really are, and that the "safety checks" that are in place are largely ineffective.

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#18 of 73 Old 04-26-2013, 01:26 PM
 
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Lots of inaccuracies.  But more troubling to me, is that this is a blog associated with a store to purchase items.  I am always leary of stores that are telling me what I need and don't need.  Usually it amounts to You need what we sell, you don't need what we don't.

Funny, I'm leary of the government telling me what I need and what I don't need

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#19 of 73 Old 04-26-2013, 01:56 PM
 
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I'm leery of both... but when a site happens to mention in an article that children should be fed 4,000mg of vitamin C every day (and oh, by the way, we sell that right here!), I get suspicious...
Side note: isn't 4,000mg about 10x the upper limit of vitamin C that children even with scurvy should take??
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#20 of 73 Old 04-26-2013, 02:04 PM
 
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Dakotacakes View Post

Lots of inaccuracies.  But more troubling to me, is that this is a blog associated with a store to purchase items.  I am always leary of stores that are telling me what I need and don't need.  Usually it amounts to You need what we sell, you don't need what we don't.

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Funny, I'm leary of the government telling me what I need and what I don't need

I agree with both of you.

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#21 of 73 Old 04-26-2013, 02:21 PM
 
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I would dismiss any sources that was selling products along with the research.  For example, if this was a blog post hailing the virtues of vaccines, or decrying the use of supplements and at the top was a retail store to purchase vaccines, I would discount that just as I discount a blog post decrying the use of vaccines that is in conjunction with a direct sales website for natural healing products and supplements.  I don't see anything to reconcile I do not trust information that is given via a store. 

Apples, meet oranges. There's a big difference. When I decline a vaccine, nobody makes money.

Supplement manufacturers want money from the vaccinated and unvaccinated alike. Marketing solely to the unvaccinated would be a stupid business move because that's a minute demographic. Big Supplement wants your money now; it's not going to wait around until it can convert you to not vaccinating.

By the way, I can tell you of one site that meets your description of ones you like to avoid: The American Academy of Pediatrics has glaring ad banners for different vaccines. I've even seen such ads on medical journal websites. Farewell, credibility, right?
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#22 of 73 Old 04-26-2013, 02:31 PM
 
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How is it that the conflict of interest in vaccines is CONSTANTLY discussed.  Yet at the same time never mentioned on the flip side of things like this coming up?  Why are those who are critical of vaccines not upset by this huge glaring conflict of interest? 

 

You answered my question, so I will answer yours.

 

Conflict of interest is constantly discussed as it is a trust issue.  It is a foundational issue.  If you do not trust the studies that come out, it does not matter  what they say, as you don't trust them.  It really is that simple.  

 

I also do not find the conflict of interest being further removed or distant very compelling.  Indeed, I find it worse.  At least with Mercola you know they are trying to sell a product.  With vaccines, the tangled web of conflict of interest is not so clear, which makes it more, not less, problematic.

 

I have a hard time arguing for the flipside.  As a general rule I do not post sites that also sell things, because, as said earlier - there is always that question of "is this legitimate?"  I will occasionally if it is well cited or well worded, but I understand if people dismiss it due to conflict of interest concerns.  

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#23 of 73 Old 04-30-2013, 06:18 AM
 
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Interesting in how awful it is.

 

For example, she says:

 

 

 

 

 

According to the CDC 1983 schedule (here: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/images/schedule1983s.jpg) , there were 22 on the schedule before age 6.  22 times that is 484, not 49.  An increase of 2286% of 22 is 524.92.

 

Math fail.

 

The rest of her "facts" are just as inaccurate.

 

 

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Lots of inaccuracies.  But more troubling to me, is that this is a blog associated with a store to purchase items.  I am always leary of stores that are telling me what I need and don't need.  Usually it amounts to You need what we sell, you don't need what we don't.

 

 

 

I was wondering if two could tell me how they are inaccurate?  

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#24 of 73 Old 04-30-2013, 06:25 AM
 
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It gives you some things to think about and has some good starting points for further research, but it seems to be a lot of scare mongering the other way this time.... 

 

Aborted fetal tissues? Really? That's starting to get old lol... fetal tissues are used in the testing/manufacturing/production process but they're not actually contained in the product being injected into people... it's very common to use human embryonic cells for many products designed for human consumption, not just pharmaceuticals.  

 

What are the ingredients of VARIVAX?
Active Ingredient: a weakened form of chickenpox virus.
Inactive Ingredients: sucrose, hydrolyzed gelatin, sodium chloride, monosodium L-glutamate, sodium 
phosphate dibasic, potassium phosphate monobasic, potassium chloride, residual components of MRC-5 
cells including DNA and protein, sodium phosphate monobasic, EDTA, neomycin, fetal bovine serum. 
 
 
Seems like to me aborted fetal tissue's in there.  
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#25 of 73 Old 04-30-2013, 07:04 AM
 
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And there's residual human cells in every meal you've ever eat. Do you call that an ingredient? 


Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

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#26 of 73 Old 04-30-2013, 07:16 AM
 
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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

And there's residual human cells in every meal you've ever eat. 

Sure.  Fingerprints and stuff, maybe hair particles and dust from shedding skin cells.  

 

No cell lines from aborted babies were used in the production of my crackers.  If there are, I might very well choose a different cracker.

 

This isn't really up for debate  - some people have ethical issues with creating consumer products that used (even many moons ago) aborted fetuses.  

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There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#27 of 73 Old 04-30-2013, 11:35 AM
 
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Hm last time I checked cell lines from aborted baby lung tissue wasn't used to culture any kind of food I would ever buy. Can you elaborate which companies utilize human diploid cell lines in the manufacturing of their goodies?

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#28 of 73 Old 04-30-2013, 12:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by nia82 View Post

Hm last time I checked cell lines from aborted baby lung tissue wasn't used to culture any kind of food I would ever buy. Can you elaborate which companies utilize human diploid cell lines in the manufacturing of their goodies?

 

You're probably better off not knowing... I was much happier before I found out lol (along with a lot of other things). 

 

It's one of those things where unless you find a way to survive on distilled rainwater, you'll starve to death avoiding them all. 

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#29 of 73 Old 04-30-2013, 12:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Escaping View Post

 

You're probably better off not knowing... I was much happier before I found out lol (along with a lot of other things). 

 

It's one of those things where unless you find a way to survive on distilled rainwater, you'll starve to death avoiding them all. 

 

You're probably right that I'm better off not knowing but if you have any information to pass along I would be interested. Thank you. 

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#30 of 73 Old 04-30-2013, 12:14 PM
 
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The only thing I knew about is that Pepsi apparently uses those cell lines to develop flavors. It's not in the actual product, but then again, we don't drink soda nor eat anything processed. Most of our food is organic. So how exactly did the local organic grass fed cow get involved with fetal lung tissue?

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