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#31 of 75 Old 04-30-2013, 04:09 AM
 
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Originally Posted by MichelleZB View Post

 

 

With circumcision, it's pretty simple. The foreskin either comes off or stays on. 

 

Make sense?

to me, with vaccines, what you put in stays in - once and done too, you don't get it undone either


 

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#32 of 75 Old 04-30-2013, 06:10 AM
 
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All these people going against the AAP on circumcision certainly puts a dent in the the "you should listen to scientists/doctors/authorities because they are authorities" argument.  

 

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/130/3/585.abstract?sid=34c9396e-55bd-43b7-8116-96262d044387

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#33 of 75 Old 04-30-2013, 07:03 AM
 
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All these people going agianst the AAP on circumcision certainly puts a dent in the the "you should listen to scientists/doctors/authorities because they are authorities" argument.  

 

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/130/3/585.abstract?sid=34c9396e-55bd-43b7-8116-96262d044387

 

Isn't that a good thing - it shows people listen to them when the evidence supporting a recommendation is good (like immunisation), and go against them when it isn't. 


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#34 of 75 Old 04-30-2013, 07:31 AM
 
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Isn't that a good thing - it shows people listen to them when the evidence supporting a recommendation is good (like immunisation), and go against them when it isn't. 

It is a nail in the coffin of the whole "I trust my doctor and follow his advice" argument.  

 

Clearly you ("you" is in general for the rest of this post) follow your doctors advice when the doctor says what you believe.  

 

That is fine.    

 

Just don't get all smug and self righteous about "I trust my doctor/science/ CDC" and therefore vaccinate.  Clearly you do not trust them on all issues, and do not follow their guidelines on all issues.

 

And if your comeback is "because vaccines are good and circ. is not!" - how do you know?  You are trusting your own opinion over that of doctors  (AAP in this case) - which is fine, it just makes the cede to authority argument weak.  

 

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#35 of 75 Old 04-30-2013, 10:11 AM
 
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I would never suggest people blindly cede to authority, although listening to advice from people who have spent much longer studying this stuff than I have time to is I think a good idea. It's a subtle difference I suppose, not as black and white as it is often presented here.
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#36 of 75 Old 04-30-2013, 11:09 AM
 
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I don't think any regular poster on here is going around making the "cede to authority" argument. Also, saying I trust my individual doctor who I know and have a relationship with is not the same as saying I agree with everything the aap puts out. I trust my mother, but I'm not going to take every hair brained piece of advice that gets posted on babycenter.

I don't turn off the critical thinking part of my brain just because I'm talking to an md, ever.
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#37 of 75 Old 04-30-2013, 08:42 PM
 
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to me, with vaccines, what you put in stays in - once and done too, you don't get it undone either

 

Yes, that's kind of the point of vaccines--that the antibodies they help foster stay in your bloodstream, if not forever, for at least a good 10 years or so.

 

But my point was that there are more FACTORS (many different vaccines, diseases, children with different levels of health and sensitivities and ages) to consider when you're thinking about vaccines than when you are considering circumcision. Circumcision is a black and white issue.

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#38 of 75 Old 04-30-2013, 10:30 PM
 
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Here is a link to the current User Agreement: http://www.mothering.com/community/a/user-agreement

 

The first paragraph is the mission statement: 

 

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Mothering is a community for exploring and celebrating the philosophy of natural family living. This philosophy includes the ideas of instinctual and responsive parenting, sustainable living, and parental autonomy. Mothering was founded by mothers on the premise that parents are experts in regards to their own families. In the spirit of informed consent, we examine unexplored sides of an issue, including controversial subjects, in an effort to give mothers all the possible information available. Ultimately, natural family living is about finding what is natural for a parent when unimpeded by social pressure. Mothering's vision is to provide parents with the information and inspiration to make the best choices for their families and empower them to claim their personal authority as a parent.

 

 

The last paragraph does not mention circumcision.

 

 

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Questionable Content

The Mothering community stands strongly against pro-spanking advocacy, abortion debate, and harsh sleep training, including “crying it out”. Please keep this in mind when you post.

 

The reason that Mothering does not take a stand against vaccination is that because Mothering does not officially take a stand against vaccination. Traditionally, natural family living ideals support questioning & researching immunization, delay and eschewing them altogether, but not every family will make that decision, just like not every member here will embrace every aspect of NFL or reject every mainstream practice.  Mothering is willing to host some debates, and not willing to host others. This may change over the years, but right now this is where things stand.

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#39 of 75 Old 05-01-2013, 04:57 AM
 
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The reason that Mothering does not take a stand against vaccination is that because Mothering does not officially take a stand against vaccination. Traditionally, natural family living ideals support questioning & researching immunization, delay and eschewing them altogether, but not every family will make that decision, just like not every member here will embrace every aspect of NFL or reject every mainstream practice.  Mothering is willing to host some debates, and not willing to host others. This may change over the years, but right now this is where things stand.

 

I'm understanding this to mean, mothering takes the view immunization is natural?

 

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#40 of 75 Old 05-01-2013, 10:23 AM
 
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I understand it differently from you.

I think it means that questioning and researching invasive procedures is natural; there's also an understanding that an informed decision against the invasive procedures is natural.

But there's also an understanding that some parents will feel, even after much questioning and researching, that vaccination is their best option. And that is natural, too.
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#41 of 75 Old 05-01-2013, 11:18 AM
 
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I'm understanding this to mean, mothering takes the view immunization is natural?

 

Mothering.com obviously does not limit itself to things that are natural:  there's nothing at all natural about computers or smartphones.

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#42 of 75 Old 05-01-2013, 11:28 AM
 
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I understand it differently from you.

I think it means that questioning and researching invasive procedures is natural; there's also an understanding that an informed decision against the invasive procedures is natural.

But there's also an understanding that some parents will feel, even after much questioning and researching, that vaccination is their best option. And that is natural, too.

 

IF you apply this logic you do not apply it equally (my point) - why should it not be "natural" to question circ here?

 

 

Kathy put it very well - Quote:

Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

All these people going against the AAP on circumcision certainly puts a dent in the the "you should listen to scientists/doctors/authorities because they are authorities" argument.  

 

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/130/3/585.abstract?sid=34c9396e-55bd-43b7-8116-96262d044387

 

both are (and IMO) should be applied equally because they should both be questioned - they are both medical procedure/decisions and should hold equal importance 

 

 

 

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Originally Posted by MichelleZB View Post

 

Yes, that's kind of the point of vaccines--that the antibodies they help foster stay in your bloodstream, if not forever, for at least a good 10 years or so.

 

this has been debated and many do not feel it is for only 10 years or so

 

and to a parent who's child suffered an irreversible reaction, they simply do not become "good" in 10 years, it's a life time


 

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#43 of 75 Old 05-01-2013, 11:52 AM
 
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Regardless of what people "feel" many vaccines (most? I'd have to check) are KNOWN to last longer than ten years. People keep,making claims along those lines (last time it was five years this time it's ten) but "feeling" doesn't make it so.

None of us live a 100% "natural" lifestyle. Not even more than half, probably. Nor would we want to. The natural living community, here and elsewhere, contains a significant proportion of people who are against vaccinesAND a significant proportion of people who aren't.

Fwiw, I think not discussing circumcision is silly. I think it's comparable to vaccines in that there are legitimate perspectives on either side (although I would nevah evah ric my kid), but the research against vaccines is NOTHING compared to the research against spanking. Nada. All the research, including from mainstream sources, condemns spanking as ineffective and damaging, period end of discussion.
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#44 of 75 Old 05-01-2013, 12:31 PM
 
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Mothering.com obviously does not limit itself to things that are natural:  there's nothing at all natural about computers or smartphones.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!

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#45 of 75 Old 05-01-2013, 10:00 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Why would Mothering "not" want to officially take a stand against vaccination (which is so harmful to innocent children & causes death) but Mothering is okay with taking a stand on other issues that aren't so harmful and aren't so death-causing? What's up with being so biased and favoring those other issues which aren't even known to cause the amount of death like vaccines cause so much death?

 


Quote:

The reason that Mothering does not take a stand against vaccination is that because Mothering does not officially take a stand against vaccination.

 

Why not?

 

Mothering takes a stand on circumcision by naming the forum "The Case Against Circumcision" and by stating that MDC is "not interested in hosting discussion on merits of routine infant medical circumcision"....but Mothering is okay with hosting discussion on merits of routine infant vaccinations.

 

Death from circumcision is rare but death and maiming from vaccines is getting more and more common. VAERS database and the Vaccine Injury Compensaion fund are proof.

 

 

Quote:
Circumcision is a barbaric and unnecessary procedure. It is heartening to see a parenting community take a strong stance against it. There are only risks and no benefits to it.
 

Replace the word in red above with "Vaccination", and the statement becomes just as true as what you said about circumcision.

 

Someone said that circumcision is a "black and white" issue. Well, so are vaccines. Either vaccines work & saved humanity from dying off. Or, vaccines don't work & are a big scam.


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#46 of 75 Old 05-02-2013, 10:33 AM
 
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Of course you know that not everyone agrees with you that "vaccination is so harmful."  Many of us actually believe that it's saved many many lives.

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#47 of 75 Old 05-02-2013, 11:07 PM
 
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The reason that Mothering does not take a stand against vaccination is that because Mothering does not officially take a stand against vaccination. Traditionally, natural family living ideals support questioning & researching immunization, delay and eschewing them altogether, but not every family will make that decision, just like not every member here will embrace every aspect of NFL or reject every mainstream practice.  Mothering is willing to host some debates, and not willing to host others. This may change over the years, but right now this is where things stand.

 

I'm understanding this to mean, mothering takes the view immunization is natural?

I can only comment based on my own opinion, I don't speak for those in charge of Mothering. My experience from the subscribing to the magazine was that not immunizing or researching and questioning the needs for immunization was a practice that was encouraged.  A number of articles appeared on this topic.  There were always people called to things like attachment parenting, but who did choose to vaccinate their children.  In general, they didn't ask questions here or talk much about it because it was the mainstream opinion, and the tendency was to have forums for the alternative practices. This was in the same way not a lot of people would be able to post about formula use or c-sections until forums were added for that. Other forums were added as well: there used to not be SAHM or EC forums either.  My opinion is that the staff recognized there was a need for a forum that allowed debate and discussion on the topic of immunization. A number of people who practice certain aspects traditionally associated with natural family living will still not embrace them all. Some people want hospital births whereas others have home births, some used cloth diapers and wanted to talk about it, some didn't; some were vegetarians, which used to be common in the hippie/crunchy/natural community, now there are a lot of traditional/primal eaters; some use allopathic medicine, others don't.

Parents have the issues near and dear to their hearts, but I think that a lot of people who came to this site did so because of the surge in popularity of Attachment Parenting, which is fairly basic. It can be kind of frustrating if you want to come to an alternative site where the mainstream opinions are not the ones constantly being pushed and debated, but at the same time, it's probably a good idea to have an open forum where debate is encouraged on controversial topics.  It's probably not helpful to people here in the moment, but ultimately I believe it will lead to people at least being more accustomed to the fact that people have a seriously different take on the same situation, and changes will happen down the road, in other generations.

 

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Someone said that circumcision is a "black and white" issue. Well, so are vaccines. Either vaccines work & saved humanity from dying off. Or, vaccines don't work & are a big scam.

 

Some people may believe that vaccines have some efficacy in protecting against disease, but have other side effects that aren't worth the risk.  

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#49 of 75 Old 05-03-2013, 05:02 AM
 
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Some people may believe that vaccines have some efficacy in protecting against disease, but have other side effects that aren't worth the risk.  

Or they might believe that vaccines have some side effects, but for the vast majority of people they will be very safe, so the benefits in lowering risk if various diseases are wirth the risk.

Not black and white at all I would say. Many shades of grey.

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#50 of 75 Old 05-03-2013, 07:47 AM
 
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I can only comment based on my own opinion, I don't speak for those in charge of Mothering. My experience from the subscribing to the magazine was that not immunizing or researching and questioning the needs for immunization was a practice that was encouraged.  A number of articles appeared on this topic.  There were always people called to things like attachment parenting, but who did choose to vaccinate their children.  In general, they didn't ask questions here or talk much about it because it was the mainstream opinion, and the tendency was to have forums for the alternative practices. This was in the same way not a lot of people would be able to post about formula use or c-sections until forums were added for that. Other forums were added as well: there used to not be SAHM or EC forums either.  My opinion is that the staff recognized there was a need for a forum that allowed debate and discussion on the topic of immunization. A number of people who practice certain aspects traditionally associated with natural family living will still not embrace them all. Some people want hospital births whereas others have home births, some used cloth diapers and wanted to talk about it, some didn't; some were vegetarians, which used to be common in the hippie/crunchy/natural community, now there are a lot of traditional/primal eaters; some use allopathic medicine, others don't.


Parents have the issues near and dear to their hearts, but I think that a lot of people who came to this site did so because of the surge in popularity of Attachment Parenting, which is fairly basic. It can be kind of frustrating if you want to come to an alternative site where the mainstream opinions are not the ones constantly being pushed and debated, but at the same time, it's probably a good idea to have an open forum where debate is encouraged on controversial topics.  It's probably not helpful to people here in the moment, but ultimately I believe it will lead to people at least being more accustomed to the fact that people have a seriously different take on the same situation, and changes will happen down the road, in other generations.


 

Very well put!

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#51 of 75 Old 05-03-2013, 08:18 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Some people may believe that vaccines have some efficacy in protecting against disease, but have other side effects that aren't worth the risk.  

 

People who vaccinate believe in the germ theory. The whole theory behind vaccines is based on the germ theory. If those people believe that vaccines have efficacy in protecting against disease, but still refuse to vaccinate, then they still believe in the "germ theory". Either the germ theory is correct, or its not. It remains a black and white issue, due to the germ theory.

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#52 of 75 Old 05-03-2013, 08:52 PM
 
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nm

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How can you NOT believe in the germ theory? :scratches head:

From what i've observed, the issue of whether or not to vaccinate is the pink elephant in the room of attachment parenting. Many AP families believe its best to vaccinate whereas others do not or they delay it or they're selective. This causes a rift that when brought up causes friction because there's the logical tendency for people to want to define what it means to be AP. We seem to define it when it comes to other topics: like breastfeeding, home birth, babywearing, co-sleeping, not circumsing, etc. While there are variations in each of these that allows for individual circumstances and it can still be considered AP (like formula feeding skin-to-skin or a conscious, natural hospital birth), when it comes to vaccinating there seems to be a stronger rigidity with AP parents wanting to define what is right and what is wrong. Is it safe and natural to inject these substances into our kids? Should we wait until they're older or only choose a selective few? The choice is difficult and often confusing. It has caused a rift in the AP community because those who are against it tend to be REALLY against it and those who are for it often feel alienated. There is no defining rule here of whats "right" and "wrong" in terms of AP. i think we'd all be much better off if we'd be gentler with ourselves and others on this topic since it is very difficult to define.
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??? The OP keeps starting these threads....
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People don't feed the troll...

I'm not a troll, i'm just new. I dont see how my post was trollish, i was simply trying to be helpful.
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#56 of 75 Old 05-04-2013, 01:27 PM
 
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I'm not a troll, i'm just new. I dont see how my post was trollish, i was simply trying to be helpful.

I don't think anyone thought you were a troll, and your post was helpful.  The vax board can be a bit…volatile smile.gif

 

Welcome to MDC!

 

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#57 of 75 Old 05-04-2013, 01:39 PM
 
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oh, the irony.....

LMAO. I know, right???!!

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Originally Posted by dalia View Post


LMAO. I know, right???!!

 

I guess disagreeing with some MDC favorite truths makes me a troll. Alack for me.

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#59 of 75 Old 05-04-2013, 03:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by dalia View Post

when the reality is that no parent vaccinates or doesn't vaccinate with intent to harm...

While this is true, the same argument goes for spanking and genital cutting. No parent ever wakes up saying: "What a wonderful day to harm my baby, I feel like I should take him in for circumcision." If you ask parents who cut, they will tell you that they circumcised their son because they love him and want the best for him. Of course we know the truth about genital cutting because we spent countless hours researching the topic, but they don't. Same with spanking.

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#60 of 75 Old 05-04-2013, 05:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by DHinJersey View Post

some do it because they believe God commands it.

Sigh, we aren't supposed to debate circumcision and religion. So I won't go there! We are supposed to respect beliefs even if we personally believe they cause harm. It's so hard to be PC on issues like that.
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