Mothering community strongly against pro-vaccine advocacy not in UA? - Mothering Forums

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Old 04-28-2013, 01:43 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Im confused. The UA says The Mothering community stands strongly against pro-spanking advocacy and pro-circumcision advocacy....which kids aren't being regularly being killed and maimed for ( with the exception of circumcision being maiming), but there are hundreds of thousands and most likely millions of kids regularly being killed and maimed from vaccines, but the UA doesn't say that Mothering community is strongly against pro-vaccine advocacy. That's really hypocritical to have the stance about believing in protecting children from spanking and circumcision but completely ignore that vaccines are toxic harmful products that are sold and regularly kill and maim babies and kids. We don't hear about babies and kids dying from not being vaccinated. What's up with the hypocracy? If you want to claim to be protecting kids then you need to do it in all areas.

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Old 04-28-2013, 02:14 PM
 
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I'm pretty sure this thread goes against the UA, but I'm going to respond anyway and see what happens. I think in the case of vaccinations there is desperate need for dialogue. It's unfortunate that both sides kind of look at each other like they are killing babies, when the reality is that no parent vaccinates or doesn't vaccinate with intent to harm. Notice I said parents, not pharmaceutical companies.

Choosing to vaccinate is difficult. Choosing not to is difficult. We all make the decisions we make for the sake of our children. Demonizing each other does nothing for either cause. We need to listen to each other.

For the record, we have chosen not to vaccinate. But I have friends that think I'm nuts! But they don't condemn me. We can talk about it. There was a time when someone called me a "killer" on Facebook. I was so devastated and the conversation was most certainly over. Let's try not to do that to each other.

Just my two cents!

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Old 04-28-2013, 02:45 PM - Thread Starter
 
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But you're not killing kids by not vaccinating. Its impossible to say my kid died from not being vaccinated. But milions of cases are reported of kids dying and being harmed from vaccines.....vaccine compensation fund and vaers database are proof. Vaccines kill and harm period and Mothering is OK with that but not OK with spanking and circumcising. Hypocritical.

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Old 04-28-2013, 03:11 PM
 
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I think the other side would say that children can die from supposed vaccine preventable diseases and also that not vaccinating harms so called herd immunity. And it's important to listen to them because these are real fears based on what they believe to be true. I don't agree with it but I think their feelings are valid.

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Old 04-28-2013, 03:53 PM
 
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I just want to be clear that I don't vaccinate, but I don't think the issue is so black and white. We need to also keep in mind that there are some who do selected vax and also those who delay or both.

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Old 04-28-2013, 04:06 PM
 
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Hasn't this been discussed before?  There are many people in the middle of the road trying to make the best decisions possible.  The dialogue here at MDC allows for a flow of information to help people make the right choices for them and their families. 

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Old 04-28-2013, 05:26 PM
 
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The earth has definitely tilted on its axis today, as I am going to argue (a tiny bit!) for the other side.

 

I do not routinely vax.  I have a laundry list of reasons why, and there is a thread in INV as we speak if anyone is new and has not heard the reasons before. 

 

About 8 months ago I made the very hard decision for me to give my youngest one vaccine - pneumococcal.  I am not going to argue in favour of everyone getting it, this was personal decision.  I was very tired of chest infections, felt she was at the point where she was in a vicious cycle with chest infections and that she was a good candidate for this particular vaccine.

 

I am really glad I had space to sort out the pros and cons of this vaccine.   I think we on the vax board can do better at helping parents sort things out if we do not allow our petty infighting to get in the way, however something is better than nothing in terms of information, and there can often be very helpful posts between the bickering.  


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Old 04-28-2013, 07:24 PM - Thread Starter
 
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There is no such thing as a vaccine preventable disease. That's a marketing name. You can be fully vaccinated and still develop the disease. Furthermore saying that children can die from those diseases does not automatically mean the one and only possible savior is a vaccines and that there are zero other options.

Vaccines are a black and white issue. There is no in betwen. Either its vaccines are the holy grail of medicine that have saved humanity from infectitious diseases otherwise human would be extinct because diseases are so deadly and killing off everyone. Or vaccines are a big scam that are killing and maiming humans.

There are people in the middle road trying to make the best decisions on circumcision and spanking too and we all know the other sides to those.

Www.iansvoice.org has a good example of a baby that was killed by vaccines.

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Old 04-28-2013, 08:20 PM
 
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There is no such thing as a vaccine preventable disease. That's a marketing name. You can be fully vaccinated and still develop the disease. Furthermore saying that children can die from those diseases does not automatically mean the one and only possible savior is a vaccines and that there are zero other options.

 

I don't have time to address the rest of the post atm, but I do agree with this.

 

I tend to call them VAD - vaccine available diseases, and I have seen someone else (turquesa maybe?) call them by another name, but I agree vaccine preventable disease (VPD)  is a marketing term and misnomer.  


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Old 04-28-2013, 09:19 PM
 
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MyLilPwny,

You're preaching to the chior. I don't at all disagree with vaccines not being the answer. As I said before, I am not "for" vaccines. What I am for is communication. And I feel if we, as parents with good intentions, continue to point the finger at each other in anger and with accusations then we get nowhere. What is the agenda? To educate or to alienate? I, for one, am for education.

As for circumcism and spanking, I also think education happens when judgment ends. Do those things make me angry? Hell yes. When I see someone spanking a child I want to punch them in the face. But that will never help. What helps, again, is communication with intention to educate. If we can't talk to each other, nothing will change. If nothing changes, then what is the point?

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Old 04-28-2013, 09:26 PM
 
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But you're not killing kids by not vaccinating. Its impossible to say my kid died from not being vaccinated. But milions of cases are reported of kids dying and being harmed from vaccines.....vaccine compensation fund and vaers database are proof. Vaccines kill and harm period and Mothering is OK with that but not OK with spanking and circumcising. Hypocritical.

Children do in fact die from VPD's, thankfully it's rare but it does happen.

Moderators here have stated in the past that the official position on vaccines is that they are against mandatory vaccination but support the decision of the parent. Just because you personally are against vaccines does not mean that others here may not have an opposite, yet equally researched position.

Comparing vaccines to spanking is really comparing apples to oranges. Not at all the same.
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Old 04-28-2013, 09:37 PM
 
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Comparing vaccines to spanking is really comparing apples to oranges. Not at all the same.

I agree with this. The issue of vaccines is so very complicated.

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Old 04-28-2013, 09:43 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Im for communication too and not alienation. So why is Mothering doing alienation and non- communication on spanking and circumcision but not on vaccines?

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Old 04-28-2013, 09:44 PM
 
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I agree with this. The issue of vaccines is so very complicated.

Exactly! I think that one one thing that can be said is that we all want what's best for our kids. We each have to look at the risks on both sides of the issue and decide what we are comfortable with.
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Old 04-28-2013, 09:45 PM
 
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Im for communication too and not alienation. So why is Mothering doing alienation and non- communication on spanking and circumcision but not on vaccines?

Again, comparing apples and oranges.
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Old 04-28-2013, 09:46 PM
 
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Im for communication too and not alienation. So why is Mothering doing alienation and non- communication on spanking and circumcision but not on vaccines?

That is a good question.

 

I wonder why some things are ok and some are not.  The way it was initailly set up?  Responding to member needs/requests?  


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Old 04-28-2013, 09:53 PM
 
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Well, majority of people still vaccinate. If you ban them from MDC, the base would shrink and so would advertising dollars. Diversity of subscribers and opinions is good for business.

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Old 04-29-2013, 05:25 AM
 
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Well, majority of people still vaccinate. If you ban them from MDC, the base would shrink and so would advertising dollars. Diversity of subscribers and opinions is good for business.

if that is the case - IMO that is greed - you really don't hold a moral conviction, you hold a financial position that trumps your conviction- and personally I believe that has so much to do with it- you can't do it with spanking or circ because the money is not there like with vaccine issue - we see this with print advertising (parenting/children magazines), many companies have no problem spending their money on publications that also hold big Pharma ad dollars

 

I see it as awful (if it is the case) that you would care more about business vs moral convictions and desire it via a diversity of subscribers on only ONE issue! 

 

I have a real personal problem with a double standard and I certainly see that here - there have been recent studies that show (rather you agree or not and the case is EXACTLY the same for vaccines!) that if you circ you have a lower rate of HIV and infections, etc - that is out there and many people buy it - same as they buy the "informed" information argument for vaccinating, when you can a allow one point of view (when it suites you) but can't on another issues - IMO that is simply hypocritical 

 

AND I have an issue with a site that promotes "natural" - well what exactly does that mean?- natural unless it means injections of toxins- no matter how you green~wash it, vaccines are not natural in any stretch of the imagination. 

 

IF as many do feel, that it's represented as a neutral position here that should really extend to a neutral position on all "controversial" issueS not just one- be fair across the board. 

 

In the end the position that you take shows your true moral feeling and yes, that does effect advertising dollars and those who see you was wishy~washy on an issue show that in how they support or don't support the advertisers and how this buys into your position. When you don't try to hold a firm position you will never know what you are missing in advertising dollars or circulation on that one issue. Many examples of this can be seen in other sectors- some survive and thrive, some don't.

 

 

ETA- I am not (and don't feel the OP or anyone else) wants to "ban" people from here - there are MANY other boards, sites, etc that support vaccines, that does not mean people should be banned - it means there are many other sources of support that already exist to server those who want to vaccinate or circ, spank, etc - that means as a site, such as here, can take a stance on an issue and stick to it- like with circ, my "issue" is that lack of conviction to do it for all subjects. Again, you won't know who really supports mothering if this was done unless it was done.


 

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Old 04-29-2013, 09:28 AM
 
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It's been really nice to see the mindful vaccination viewpoint defended on this thread. 

 

As I have repeatedly tried to point out there are very many mindfully vaccinating parents here (myself included) who really see the benefit of the natural parenting style in terms of attachment parenting, extended breastfeeding, cloth nappies, avoiding unnecessary chemicals in diet and environment etc, and so enjoy the Mothering parenting style and find a community here at MDC.

 

 I suspect most of these people avoid the vaccination boards as I did for a long time (actually I avoided the whole of MDC for ages after I enjoyed reading the magazine when I lived in the USA), but I think that's a shame because choosing not to vaccinate does not need to correlate with other choices about lifestyle and trying to be more natural.

 

Vaccines are such an infrequent event, and include such tiny amounts of the nasty sounding ingredients that it's like being concerned about a drop of water in the ocean. Personally I'd prefer to try to get out of the ocean before loosing the benefit of vaccinating. 


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Old 04-29-2013, 09:53 AM
 
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I agree that it's apples to oranges. With circumcision and spanking, the risk-benefit ratio favors risk by a landslide. With vaccines, there's a comparatively low risk of getting or spreading a vaccine-targeted disease OR ending up with a vaccine reaction, making it a gray and complex issue.

I'm unequivocal in my support for vaccine choice, as is MDC.

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Old 04-29-2013, 10:19 AM
 
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I agree that it's apples to oranges. With circumcision and spanking, the risk-benefit ratio favors risk by a landslide. With vaccines, there's a comparatively low risk of getting or spreading a vaccine-targeted disease OR a vaccine reaction, making it a gray and complex issue.

I'm unequivocal in my support for vaccine choice, as is MDC.

 

again, I don't think anyone is saying to NOT support those who choose to vaccinate/or to ban anyone! but you are drawling a line when you only support those who vaccinate and do not support those who circ- that is discriminatory- is it not?
those who choose to not vaccinate hold your same beliefs that vaccines risk(S) benefit ration is also a landslide - same thought yet the policy is not evenly applied here
 
if you further add and we don't know that this is an discussion point or simple just an opinion - 

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Vaccines are such an infrequent event, and include such tiny amounts of the nasty sounding ingredients that it's like being concerned about a drop of water in the ocean. 

it is not true here in the US, we vaccinate within hours of birth, every few months within the first few years of life and now it's suggested that one receive vaccines until the end of life, with yearly flu shots, plus boosters- so I guess it's what infrequent means to each, and to circ is certainly not frequent, that would be once


 

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Old 04-29-2013, 10:33 AM
 
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I agree that it's apples to oranges. With circumcision and spanking, the risk-benefit ratio favors risk by a landslide. With vaccines, there's a comparatively low risk of getting or spreading a vaccine-targeted disease OR ending up with a vaccine reaction, making it a gray and complex issue.

I'm unequivocal in my support for vaccine choice, as is MDC.

Exactly this. With the vaccine issue there are risks that come with either decision, and only the parents can fully evaluate the risks as they apply to their own personal family situation.
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Old 04-29-2013, 10:38 AM
 
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ETA- I am not (and don't feel the OP or anyone else) wants to "ban" people from here - there are MANY other boards, sites, etc that support vaccines, that does not mean people should be banned - it means there are many other sources of support that already exist to server those who want to vaccinate or circ, spank, etc - that means as a site, such as here, can take a stance on an issue and stick to it- like with circ, my "issue" is that lack of conviction to do it for all subjects. Again, you won't know who really supports mothering if this was done unless it was done.

So you don't support banning members, just their beliefs even though they clearly fall within the stated position of Mothering with regards to vaccines.

Again, comparing vaccines to spanking or circ is comparing apples to oranges.
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Old 04-29-2013, 10:39 AM
 
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Serenbat, by vaccine choice, I mean the right of each family to make their own vaccine decisions without any interference from the State. I'm opposed to compulsory vaccination. At least one person has come to this forum calling for an end to personal belief exemptions. S/he was promptly banned.

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Old 04-29-2013, 11:12 AM
 
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Serenbat, by vaccine choice, I mean the right of each family to make their own vaccine decisions without any interference from the State. I'm opposed to compulsory vaccination. At least one person has come to this forum calling for an end to personal belief exemptions. S/he was promptly banned.

I'm sorry but I have no idea what this has to do with what I posted, I'm kind of confused by what you mean. Families make circ decisions, it's still legal in the US and it's not compulsory and I am NOT pushing here for acceptance of it, I am simply stating that it's hypocritical- IMO, here of allowing one and not the other. 

 

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So you don't support banning members, just their beliefs even though they clearly fall within the stated position of Mothering with regards to vaccines.
 

I don't support banning beliefs! I support "supporting" all beliefs and not discriminating - if you only allow beliefs to apply in one section (vaccines) you are discriminating in other subjects when you don't apply it equally-IMO

 

If you support one point of view on one subject but allow two views on another - how is that in any way equal or fair and not discriminatory?


 

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Old 04-29-2013, 11:28 AM
 
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I'm sorry but I have no idea what this has to do with what I posted, I'm kind of confused by what you mean. Families make circ decisions, it's still legal in the US and it's not compulsory and I am NOT pushing here for acceptance of it, I am simply stating that it's hypocritical- IMO,
 here of allowing one and not the other. 

I don't support banning beliefs! I support "supporting" all beliefs and not discriminating - if you only allow beliefs to apply in one section (vaccines) you are discriminating in other subjects when you don't apply it equally-IMO

If you support one point of view on one subject but allow two views on another - how is that in any way equal or fair and not discriminatory?

Does that mean you would welcome someone coming here saying they believe and support in elective c/section since Mothering has a place for moms that choose UC? By your definition not supporting that view would be discrimination.
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Old 04-29-2013, 11:40 AM
 
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Does that mean you would welcome someone coming here saying they believe and support in elective c/section since Mothering has a place for moms that choose UC? By your definition not supporting that view would be discrimination.

YES, again, why continue to discriminate to justify just this one view point?

 

There are just as many here that view vaccinating as harm and un-natural too as others do to other subjects.

 

Even if you take the "harm" view point away (which I don't think you can really take it away either), it's still un-natural and objectionable to others to inject toxins and call it "natural" and support it.

 

It's odd to say "natural" means none or less chemicals yet advocate (by allowance) that toxins need only apply to certain things like housecleaning or food and that toxins (un-natural) ingredients are not in vaccines? Does that just make "natural" mean connivence when you want it to? 


 

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Old 04-29-2013, 04:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by TCMoulton View Post


Exactly this. With the vaccine issue there are risks that come with either decision, and only the parents can fully evaluate the risks as they apply to their own personal family situation.

This does apply to circ, UA, elective Cesarean, etc.  

 

I don't think apples/oranges is the reason we do not have a circ. board, etc.

 

I would have to look into the history of the board (and maybe a mod can help)- but I imagine the forum was set up to be an alternative parenting voice on the Internet.  Over time poster demand has driven what we have here and what we don't.  I do not really think it is more complicated than that.  

 

It it is not simply a "natural" parenting site or we would not have MV or c-sec forum, even with demand for them.

 

It is not only "evidence-based" as is defined by the mainstream or we would not have a non-vax or UC section.  

 

It does not only strive for informed choice across the board  -or it would discuss such things as circ. 

 

My 2 cents.  


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Old 04-29-2013, 06:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by serenbat View Post

I'm sorry but I have no idea what this has to do with what I posted, I'm kind of confused by what you mean. Families make circ decisions, it's still legal in the US and it's not compulsory and I am NOT pushing here for acceptance of it, I am simply stating that it's hypocritical- IMO,
 here of allowing one and not the other. 

I was clarifying what I meant by vaccine choice. That's it. If you didn't need the clarification, just ignore it. I'm honestly not going to dedicate any more keystrokes to a thread that's destined for a padlock. shrug.gif

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Old 04-29-2013, 09:11 PM
 
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Doesn't seem hypocritical to me. Mothering is a safe space for attachment parents, so it makes sense that it strongly supports breastfeeding, not crying it out, etc.

 

Circumcision is a barbaric and unnecessary procedure. It is heartening to see a parenting community take a strong stance against it. There are only risks and no benefits to it.

 

The same cannot be said for vaccines, the effectiveness and safety of which are under (as you can see) some debate. Rather than comparing vaccines to circumcision, try comparing it to birth methods. Mothering supports mothers going through lots of birth methods, from unassisted home birth to cesarean section. You can see subforums for everything in their birth section. That's because birth is a complicated and varied topic, and so are vaccines.

 

With circumcision, it's pretty simple. The foreskin either comes off or stays on. But with topics like labour and birth, there are many more things to consider! Maternal health and risk factors can vary wildly, as can birth experiences. Vaccines are a similarly diverse topic, where the constitution and age of the child is taken into account, as well as the risks of the many separate vaccines and diseases.

 

Make sense?

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