There are ZERO risks for Not Vaccinating - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

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#31 of 103 Old 05-03-2013, 11:11 PM
 
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#32 of 103 Old 05-04-2013, 08:01 AM
 
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This sounds like your goal of discussing vaccines with people is to convert them to vaxxing.  Proselytising.

 

I think it is incredibly unlikely a firm vaxxer or non-vaxxer is going to be converted (move very slightly?  Maybe) .  We discuss for numerous reasons - but one of the nobler ones is put out info and alternate POV for the undecided lurkers. 

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If you don't believe diseases are caused by "germs" (viruses and bacteria) then there's not a lot of point discussing the benefit if vaccines with you.

 

There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#33 of 103 Old 05-04-2013, 09:54 AM
 
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You don't have to believe in germs. They believe in you!


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#34 of 103 Old 05-04-2013, 10:03 AM
 
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Diseases aren't EXCLUSIVELY caused by Viruses & Bacteria, they are also influenced by the 'Terrain', that is true. If HIV has shown us nothing else, it should have shown us this: I sometimes think Paul Offit and Co are SO ProVax because they know exactly how many people are immunosuppressed, either by HIV or intentionally immunosuppressive treatments associated with Organ Treatment, Psoriasis, etc. 

 

I think every conversation about Herd Immunity should include a discussion of those who drink Soda by the 12 pack, those who smoke Tobacco and expose their children, those who don't have safe sex and contract HIV through careless behavior, those who Formula Feed purely by choice/culture, those who take immunosuppresants for NON life threatening conditions (like IBD, Eczema) etc. Herd Immunity should be a MUCH broader discussion than just Vaxes, because SO many people actually influence their immunity so many different ways.

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#35 of 103 Old 05-04-2013, 10:04 AM
 
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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

We discuss for numerous reasons - but one of the nobler ones is put out info and alternate POV for the undecided lurkers. 

Yeah I guess I put it badly, because I meant something like "I'm not posting to convince you if anything because that's obviously hopeless, but here's a counter point for lurkers."

I think we should get back to the point. I don't really think another thread on my reasons for posting here will be all that helpful. smile.gif
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#36 of 103 Old 05-04-2013, 10:14 AM
 
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Diseases aren't EXCLUSIVELY caused by Viruses & Bacteria, they are also influenced by the 'Terrain', that is true. If HIV has shown us nothing else, it should have shown us this: I sometimes think Paul Offit and Co are SO ProVax because they know exactly how many people are immunosuppressed, either by HIV or intentionally immunosuppressive treatments associated with Organ Treatment, Psoriasis, etc. 

 

I think every conversation about Herd Immunity should include a discussion of those who drink Soda by the 12 pack, those who smoke Tobacco and expose their children, those who don't have safe sex and contract HIV through careless behavior, those who Formula Feed purely by choice/culture, those who take immunosuppresants for NON life threatening conditions (like IBD, Eczema) etc. Herd Immunity should be a MUCH broader discussion than just Vaxes, because SO many people actually influence their immunity so many different ways.

 

Wait, Formula Feeding causes disease now?

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#37 of 103 Old 05-04-2013, 10:40 AM
 
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Yes, it does. I guess if you work for a Formula Company, you would say 'Breastfeeding enhances immunity', but really Breastfeeding is the biological norm, so yes, Formula Feeding REDUCES immunity. Breastfeeding enhances immunity in several ways: we know it colonizes the gut with every suckle @ the breast, we also know that mothers share their antibodies in a fluid way: i.e. mother is exposed to the same antigens as the baby and creates antibodies to them . . . I have witnessed this many times, but it is also supported by science. Here is an anecdote and then I will follow with some links: this week, my older son was sick. He had a fever for about 24 hours, and several episodes of diarrhea. My younger son was nursing for 2 days afterwards, and then got sick. He was literally only sick for 8 hours, because he had already been exposed to the antibodies through my milk . . . 

 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/10/081026101713.htm

 

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/138/9/1782S.full

 

There are thousands more, I didn't even go to PubMed yet.

 

Also please notice the sources I am using are NOT KellyMom and Natural News. That is how I would like everyone to behave, no Natural News or Mercola on the VaxSafety side, no Orac, SBM, or Paul Offit on the ProVax side . . . 

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#38 of 103 Old 05-04-2013, 10:53 AM
 
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Good links. Thanks.
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#39 of 103 Old 05-04-2013, 04:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by dinahx View Post

Diseases aren't EXCLUSIVELY caused by Viruses & Bacteria, they are also influenced by the 'Terrain', that is true. If HIV has shown us nothing else, it should have shown us this: I sometimes think Paul Offit and Co are SO ProVax because they know exactly how many people are immunosuppressed, either by HIV or intentionally immunosuppressive treatments associated with Organ Treatment, Psoriasis, etc. 

 

I think every conversation about Herd Immunity should include a discussion of those who drink Soda by the 12 pack, those who smoke Tobacco and expose their children, those who don't have safe sex and contract HIV through careless behavior, those who Formula Feed purely by choice/culture, those who take immunosuppresants for NON life threatening conditions (like IBD, Eczema) etc. Herd Immunity should be a MUCH broader discussion than just Vaxes, because SO many people actually influence their immunity so many different ways.


I am AMAZED at how often we are called to defend this position on MDC. Amazed. Explaining this rationale on a natural parenting site....why.?

If healthy nutrition and lifestyle has no effect on health, then tell me now. I'll need to schedule a trip to McDonald's!

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#40 of 103 Old 05-04-2013, 05:38 PM
 
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I am AMAZED at how often we are called to defend this position on MDC. Amazed. Explaining this rationale on a natural parenting site....why.?

If healthy nutrition and lifestyle has no effect on health, then tell me now. I'll need to schedule a trip to McDonald's!

Or any site, really.

 

I think it is common knowledge that healthy choices often go hand in hand with being healthy.


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#41 of 103 Old 05-04-2013, 09:42 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Nature and our human ancestors have evolved and refined the immune system from the beginning of human existence to the present. Injections into the human body (i.e. vaccines) have never been a natural occurrence among humans historically and throughout evolution.  Relative to how long humans have been in existence, vaccines are a very new practice (a mass experiment with unknown effects like russian roulette).

 

The concoction of whatever filth/germs is inside a vaccine will produce antibodies to "something" which does not and will not ever exist in nature, with the advertisement that those antibodies will protect you from actual nature-occuring germs in the future. Your vaccine-influenced newly altered immune system is in no way an "improvement" for your natural health & your innate, naturally balanced immune system. 

 

When a human is naturally exposed to germs that occur in nature, that human may NEVER develop the disease that supposedly that germ "causes". So the germ really doesn't "cause" disease, if that person never develops the disease after germ exposure. 

 

Since the beginning of human existence, it has been a regular occurrence where everyone in a social setting is exposed to said "deadly plague" germs, but some people will develop disease and some people will never develop the disease. The PR industry uses the Germ Theory to promote vaccines & they love to $ignore$ this fact. Just because a germ is present, it does not automatically mean that it will be the causative agent for disease.

 

But, the PR industry and any other supposedly "independent third-party" endorser who pretends to have $no conflict of interest$ (i.e. FDA, CDC & any other applicable foundation or organization; just insert the name here)...they will sure do everything in their power to get you to believe that germs are the causative agents, as long as commercial value remains (i.e. vaccines).


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#42 of 103 Old 05-04-2013, 10:14 PM
 
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So, those of you on the "no vaccinations" side of the aisle: nothing to say about MLP's statements? You're in agreement?

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#43 of 103 Old 05-04-2013, 10:39 PM
 
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I agree with some of it but not really the delivery. I think it's important to provide references because a lot of people come here for solid information.

I'm all for discussing things but I get frustrated when the tone is condescending from either side.

Just my two cents.

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#44 of 103 Old 05-04-2013, 10:54 PM
 
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Or any site, really.

I think it is common knowledge that healthy choices often go hand in hand with being healthy.

Absolutely. It's not like those of us who decide to vaccinate say "well that's it then I don't have to do anything else to be heathy."

It's my opinion that the best choice is to do all that stuff to keep healthy and bolster your immune system, as well as using vaccines to train it how to recognise the viruses and bacteria which cause serious diseases without risking actually having a serious bout of the disease.

Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

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#45 of 103 Old 05-04-2013, 11:00 PM
 
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I think it's interesting that the observation that not everyone who is exposed to a disease virus or bacteria will catch the diseases initiated the development of vaccines.

Edward Jenner noticed in 1796 that milk maids tended to not catch small pox. He realised this was because they had previously been exposed to cowpox - similar to small pox but much milder and reasoned that this had trained there immune systems to fight off small pox.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox_vaccine

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#46 of 103 Old 05-04-2013, 11:01 PM
 
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American Indians in 1492 ate whole foods, didnt vaccinate, breastfed and didnt have c-sections, and diseases including measles and smallpox killed them by the millions. How exactly do you think they sabotaged their perfectly designed immune systems? Or are modern Westerners the only ones lucky enough to have immune systems like that, as long as we don't vaccinate or eat McDonald's?
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#47 of 103 Old 05-05-2013, 02:41 AM
 
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American Indians in 1492 ate whole foods, didnt vaccinate, breastfed and didnt have c-sections, and diseases including measles and smallpox killed them by the millions. How exactly do you think they sabotaged their perfectly designed immune systems? Or are modern Westerners the only ones lucky enough to have immune systems like that, as long as we don't vaccinate or eat McDonald's?

 

They also had a high parasite load, suffered from respiratory disease due to constant smoke exposure, and in the case of the agricultural tribes, were mineral deficient and anemic. Not saying that measles and smallpox didn't decimate entire nations, but just want to clarify that pre-contact life was also hardly optimal health conditions either.

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#48 of 103 Old 05-05-2013, 04:37 AM
 
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The notion that what is "naturally occurring" is somehow the best or perfect is so ludicrous. Our bodies are the results of millions of years of accidental mutations and adaptation, and are full of flaws (wisdom teeth, anyone?). Science can help where our bodies are deficient.

 

Yes. many of our problems are problems of civilization (tooth decay, obesity, etc.), but some people just have screwed up bodies, period.

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#49 of 103 Old 05-05-2013, 05:37 AM
 
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Wow. I just wanted to make sure I quote this so that everyone can read it again.  Read it carefully, and learn.  It sums up the gist of what I see on this board so often.  If you get sick or are immunosuppressed or get cancer, it is YOUR FAULT.  Got that?  

Your baby had a bad outcome from one of those supposedly harmless VPDs?  It must have been that it was formula fed.  Oh, but it had to have been formula by choice or for convenience.  Oh, the baby was breastfed?  Then someone in the family smoked.  Oh, no one smoked?  I'll bet the baby was born by C-section and now it's immune system is permanently destroyed due to lack of colonization by the mother's vaginal flora.  Oh, it was a vaginal birth?  I'll bet the mom got antibiotics for GBS and now the baby's gut flora is destroyed.  Oh, it was a totally non-interventional home birth?  Hmm.  Oh, I know.  The mother had mercury fillings.  

Remember, all those who get HIV- IT"S YOUR FAULT.  You know, unsafe sex is the only way to get it.  If you got it from a blood transfusion, that's a MORAL reason, and you won't get sick.  Really.  

If you have Crohn's disease, don't take immunosuppressants, because it's not life threatening.  Really.  Dinahx says so.  Oh, you ended up in the hospital with 50% of your small bowel removed due to obstruction?  Too bad.  You didn't die, right?  What are you complaining about?

You see, it's so obvious.  Those who get sick just aren't worthy.  They didn't do everything right.  They didn't try hard enough.  They aren't moral enough.  So, it's really okay.

You can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs.

You leaped to a conclusion that wasn't even implied, let alone stated by Dinahx. I'm so glad you quoted her post; maybe you should actually read it.

Her point, which is a valid one, is that there are many common factors that strongly affect immunity, and that they need to be part of any discussion of herd immunity.

Instead of discussing those factors and their effects, you launched an all-out attack on points she never even implied. You twisted her point beyond recognition, took the twisted point to the extreme, and then pretended that was her point all along.

Your over-reaction is very troubling.
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#50 of 103 Old 05-05-2013, 05:44 AM
 
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It may not be socially acceptable to discuss it, but there are lots of ways that people put themselves, and their children, at risk. Is it a guarantee? No. And it's pretty silly to imply that it is. It is equally silly to imply that all those with cancer, HIV, etc are ramdomly chosen victims. There is nothing that is all black OR all white about health issues.

I'd love to discuss the pros and cons of wisdom teeth on another thread.
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#51 of 103 Old 05-05-2013, 05:48 AM
 
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So, those of you on the "no vaccinations" side of the aisle: nothing to say about MLP's statements? You're in agreement?

 

There is a room.  Someone in the room has a virus and is contagious. 20 people walk into the room - everyone mingles, touches things and linger there for hours.  Some of the people who entered the room get the virus and some don't.  In general, the people who were healthier when they entered the room were less likely to get the virus and if they got the virus recovered from said virus more easily.  This was not true across the board - but was a definite pattern.

 

I try to keep myself in the healthy group so I am less likely to get things, and more likely to recover quickly if I do.  

 

So I believe in germ theory and in treating your body well so you are a poor host for disease.  


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#52 of 103 Old 05-05-2013, 05:59 AM
 
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Wow. I just wanted to make sure I quote this so that everyone can read it again.  Read it carefully, and learn.  It sums up the gist of what I see on this board so often.  If you get sick or are immunosuppressed or get cancer, it is YOUR FAULT.  Got that?  

 

 

My father died of a herart attack.  He was 58.  He smoked since he was 9, ate poorly, was overweight  and  sedentary.

 

You cannot tell me his heart attack was not brought on by his poor health choices.

 

I believe illness is a spectrum when it comes to responsibility - everything from random/unlucky -> you largely brought this on yourself.

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There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#53 of 103 Old 05-05-2013, 06:22 AM
 
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My father died of a herart attack.  He was 58.  He smoked since he was 9, ate poorly, was overweight  and  sedentary.

 

You cannot tell me his heart attack was not brought on by his poor health choices.

 

Total straw man argument.

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#54 of 103 Old 05-05-2013, 06:51 AM
 
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I may be immunocompromised, but I'm entitled to smoke, drink, live on greasy processed food, and sit on my arse all day. If I get sick, whether it's vaccine-targeted or not, it's somebody else's fault. I'm also going to throw caution to the wind, stop washing my hands, and mingle in as many crowded, public places as I can. While I'm at it, I'm going to lick subway seats and stop sign poles. It's somebody else's responsibility to keep those clean, after all. Everybody needs to get vaccinated for me, regardless of reaction risk and even with the crap-vaxxes like pertussis and influenza. Then I can swaddle myself in my false-sense-of-security blanket and grin with blissful, ignorant satisfaction. I'm the victim here, dammit.

There. Do you see where all of this using black and white thinking takes us? Not to pretty places. How about taking a daring leap into a gray area and accepting that matters of disease and human health are a leeeeeeeeeeeeetle bit more complex than the "mutually exclusive" factors of personal responsibility v. (bad) luck of the draw? Dinahx's post conveys just that. Anybody who read it carefully would see that.
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#55 of 103 Old 05-05-2013, 07:35 AM
 
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American Indians in 1492 ate whole foods, didnt vaccinate, breastfed and didnt have c-sections, and diseases including measles and smallpox killed them by the millions. How exactly do you think they sabotaged their perfectly designed immune systems? Or are modern Westerners the only ones lucky enough to have immune systems like that, as long as we don't vaccinate or eat McDonald's?

Are you seriously asking that question? You might not know so much about Native American history then. They were KILLED with BioWarfare & Genocide, by being deprived to their land and then intentionally exposed to virulent disease. Heard of Jeffery Amherst and his SmallPox blankets. 

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Are you seriously asking that question? You might not know so much about Native American history then. They were KILLED with BioWarfare & Genocide, by being deprived to their land and then intentionally exposed to virulent disease. Heard of Jeffery Amherst and his SmallPox blankets. 

 

 

Too bad they didn't have smallpox or MMR vaccines!

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#57 of 103 Old 05-05-2013, 07:42 AM
 
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I may be immunocompromised, but I'm entitled to smoke, drink, live on greasy processed food, and sit on my arse all day. If I get sick, whether it's vaccine-targeted or not, it's somebody else's fault. I'm also going to throw caution to the wind, stop washing my hands, and mingle in as many crowded, public places as I can. While I'm at it, I'm going to lick subway seats and stop sign poles. It's somebody else's responsibility to keep those clean, after all. Everybody needs to get vaccinated for me, regardless of reaction risk and even with the crap-vaxxes like pertussis and influenza. Then I can swaddle myself in my false-sense-of-security blanket and grin with blissful, ignorant satisfaction. I'm the victim here, dammit.

There. Do you see where all of this using black and white thinking takes us? Not to pretty places. How about taking a daring leap into a gray area and accepting that matters of disease and human health are a leeeeeeeeeeeeetle bit more complex than the "mutually exclusive" factors of personal responsibility v. (bad) luck of the draw? Dinahx's post conveys just that. Anybody who read it carefully would see that.

 

Of course it isn't black and white. It's the AntiVaxers who keep bringing up this lifestyle nonsense though. We all understand that lifestyle choices affect human health. A three year old understands that if you eat too much you get fat. So does rather random infection. I'm pretty sure most ProVaccination posters here are in favor of both vaccination to protect from communicable diseases and wise lifestyle choices to promote general healthfulness. It's only the anti-vaxers that are black and white.

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#58 of 103 Old 05-05-2013, 07:42 AM
 
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WildKingdom, thanks for totally butchering my post. ProVax types say that if your child has a serious & debilitating reaction to a PERFECT Pharmaceutical product then they must have been 'genetically defective' because genetically fit people can accept all manner of Pharma injections with no harm.

 

I did not say that all illness is people's fault, I noted that there are many choices folks make that damage the immunity of the 'herd', and focusing on Vax delay or denial as the ONLY factor in Herd Immunity is straight up Pharma Dogma and is NOT science.

 

Regarding HIV, it IS primarily transmitted through unsafe sex and IV drug use. The last time people got HIV en masse through blood in the US, it was actually Pharma's fault entirely. I suggest you watch the documentary Bad Blood to learn how Hemophiliacs were given HIV *on purpose* in the 1980s.

 

Y'all want to break some eggs for your Vax utopia. And FTR I never mentioned Chrons.

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#59 of 103 Old 05-05-2013, 07:44 AM
 
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I actually believe cancer is primarily environmental, but many will also tell you that cancer (like everything else in their estimation) is 'genetic'.

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#60 of 103 Old 05-05-2013, 07:45 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DHinJersey View Post

 

 

Too bad they didn't have smallpox or MMR vaccines!

That would have really undermined the Genocide plan, friend. You don't engage in BioWarfare with a disease that there is a Vax for. Duh!

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