There are ZERO risks for Not Vaccinating - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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#61 of 103 Old 05-05-2013, 09:21 AM
 
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Of course it isn't black and white. It's the AntiVaxers who keep bringing up this lifestyle nonsense though. We all understand that lifestyle choices affect human health. A three year old understands that if you eat too much you get fat. So does rather random infection. I'm pretty sure most ProVaccination posters here are in favor of both vaccination to protect from communicable diseases and wise lifestyle choices to promote general healthfulness. It's only the anti-vaxers that are black and white.

Pop quiz. I can count at least two cases of self-refutation in this post, Who would like to take a stab at it?

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#62 of 103 Old 05-05-2013, 09:22 AM
 
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Of course it isn't black and white. It's the AntiVaxers who keep bringing up this lifestyle nonsense though. We all understand that lifestyle choices affect human health. A three year old understands that if you eat too much you get fat. So does rather random infection. I'm pretty sure most ProVaccination posters here are in favor of both vaccination to protect from communicable diseases and wise lifestyle choices to promote general healthfulness. It's only the anti-vaxers that are black and white.

How on earth would you know?  Are you are non-vaxxer?  Well then, you do not speak for them.

 

Non-vaxxers have a variety of beliefs - just like pro-vaxxers.

 

I believe health is the combination of genetics, environment, choices, exposure and good or bad luck….bet that is the same as many pro-vaxxers.  I simply do not choose to lessen the (frequently small) amount of risks from VADs as I believe the harm may outweigh the benefits where vaccines are concerned.  None of it has to do with thinking eating well will magically protect me from disease, although I still eat well to load the dice in my favour.


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#63 of 103 Old 05-05-2013, 09:25 AM
 
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Perhaps something we can all agree on - neither side is as black and white in their thinking as the "other side" seems to think.

Could we throw in there's not really sides, more a continuum of opinions too?

Back to the OP - why we're here debating it?

Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

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#64 of 103 Old 05-05-2013, 09:27 AM
 
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Perhaps something we can all agree on - neither side is as black and white in their thinking as the "other side" seems to think.

Could we throw in there's not really sides, more a continuum of opinions too?

Back to the OP - why we're here debating it?

I agree with this!!!

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#65 of 103 Old 05-05-2013, 09:27 AM
 
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(And I am an "antivaxer"!) *cue twilight zone theme*

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#66 of 103 Old 05-05-2013, 09:28 AM
 
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I actually believe cancer is primarily environmental, but many will also tell you that cancer (like everything else in their estimation) is 'genetic'.

Ot, but you might enjoy this article:

 

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/39687039/ns/health-cancer/t/cancer-man-made-disease-controversial-study-claims/#.UYZ6IY6RCkg


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#67 of 103 Old 05-05-2013, 09:28 AM
 
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Badly edited.
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#68 of 103 Old 05-05-2013, 09:30 AM
 
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You can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs.

Funny you should say that, by the way.

That's the exact mentality of every utilitarian extremist who believes that all individuals, with extreme and narrowly defined medical exceptions, should engage in medical risk-taking for the good of the almighty Herd.

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#69 of 103 Old 05-05-2013, 09:39 AM
 
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Funny you should say that, by the way.

That's the exact mentality of every utilitarian extremist who believes that all individuals, with extreme and narrowly defined medical exceptions, should engage in medical risk-taking for the good of the almighty Herd.

 

What would happen if 80 percent of the population of this country decided to adopt the antivax position?

 

"My baby matters more than yours" folks are quite willing to piggyback off the investment the rest of us have made in the public good to spare their child the infinitesimal risk of a vaccine reaction. Hey, remember when themerisol cause autism?! 

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#70 of 103 Old 05-05-2013, 09:45 AM
 
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(And I am an "antivaxer"!) *cue twilight zone theme*

And here was me thinking I couldn't post that kittens were cute on this forum without being told there was evidence against it and I'm only saying that because I'm being paid to! wink1.gif

Does us all good to remember we're all talking to real people on here. Not characatures. (Sp?)

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#71 of 103 Old 05-05-2013, 09:49 AM
 
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And here was me thinking I couldn't post that kittens were cute on this forum without being told there was evidence against it and I'm only saying that because I'm being paid to! wink1.gif

Does us all good to remember we're all talking to real people on here. Not characatures. (Sp?)

ZOMG I agree with that as well! WTH?????? Must be the margaritas (HAPPY CINCO DE MAYO!!!)

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#72 of 103 Old 05-05-2013, 09:50 AM
 
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By the way I think kittens are ugly (kidding)

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#73 of 103 Old 05-05-2013, 09:53 AM
 
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Care to give us a citiation on the actual level of risk of ANY reaction from each vaccine. (Hint: it's not infinitesimal). Nevermind the combined risk from the entire schedule.

 

My baby matters. They don't matter more or less than any other baby, but let me remind you that ALL in society need to be vaccinated (in a vax system) not just babies, you do NOT build a lifelong immune system with infant vax, you cover the infant for some years, until they need to get boosters, which would continue through the lifespan. Babies just comply the most and complain the least (unlike say, adults). Thimerisol is still in the Vax Schedule for adults and is still given in annual Flu Shots, including Prenatally. In the Swine Flu Year, when H1N1 and Annual Flu were given seperately, a pregnant woman complying with CDC recs would have received 75mcg of Thimerisol, more than any pregnant woman in previous history (unless somehow she got THREE Rhogham shots during pregnancy in the 1980s). They took it out of the Childhood schedule and doubled down on the Prenatal Schedule. Now the more educated women can request Thimerisol free Flu shots but the CDC position is that there is no difference and Public Health Clinics do not generally stock Thimerisol Free Flu Shots, making it a class issue.

 

Plus the claim is that it is largely excreted. So where does it go, when you consider all the Thimerisol in the world's vax supply that is not environmentally inert.

 

What is the 'investment' if the risk is negligible? If there were truly NO or negligible risk to Vaccination, then no one would be sweating it. It isn't like people are upset that there are too few people in the VIP lounge. If Vaxes were truly risk free, then Vaxing parents would just feel sorry for those of us who don't access them, they wouldn't be all like 'NO FAIR' because what would be unfair about it? An investment requires RISK, that is the nature of an investment.

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#74 of 103 Old 05-05-2013, 11:34 AM
 
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What would happen if 80 percent of the population of this country decided to adopt the antivax position?

 

"My baby matters more than yours" folks are quite willing to piggyback off the investment the rest of us have made in the public good to spare their child the infinitesimal risk of a vaccine reaction. Hey, remember when themerisol cause autism?! 

 

Even if 100% are anti-vax, it - won't - change my vax decision. Not at all.


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#75 of 103 Old 05-05-2013, 08:29 PM
 
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Hmmm, you don't have my permission to submit it for publication, in case that was the next move. Are we really allowed to repost removed posts on here?
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#76 of 103 Old 05-05-2013, 10:35 PM
 
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Are you seriously asking that question? You might not know so much about Native American history then. They were KILLED with BioWarfare & Genocide, by being deprived to their land and then intentionally exposed to virulent disease. Heard of Jeffery Amherst and his SmallPox blankets. 

The epidemics started as soon as first contact was made, long before being kicked off their land. Read "1491" by Charles Mann or better yet "Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond. I am not a believer in the whole "Noble Savage" living in perfect health and harmony with the Earth thing, but they sure did breastfeed, birth vaginally, and avoid pesticides and vaccines, and on exposure to novel viruses and bacteria they died en masse.

 

And actually, when it comes to parasite load, that may STRENGTHEN our immune systems. There is a theory backed with some interesting research that people who have parasites have fewer allergies and autoimmune diseases.

 

As WildKingdom says, it seems there is a real resistance here to the idea that sometimes, shit just happens.


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#77 of 103 Old 05-05-2013, 10:39 PM
 
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Right, especially when Colonists from another continent invade your land en masse. Wars & battles & land theft started immediately. I am sure Guns, Germs & Steel dealt with the intentional Genocide via primitive BioWarfare. No one but PP mentioned anything about Noble Savages living in perfect harmony with the Earth. To use that to diminish the harm we currently suffer from Pollution, Pesticides, HFCS, Epidemic Diabetes, Obesity, Lung Disease, etc, is patently ridiculous.

There is also resistance on the ProVax side that sometimes, pharmaceutical products are what is flawed, not the recipient's inferior 'genetics'. Read Pox: An American History, Vax Injury was being discussed in Congress 100 years ago, by the Mothers of the Injured. There are books with pictures of Injured & Maimed Children, etc. Vax then & Vax now has a casualty level, which is why I believe our Creator will always protect both Religious Exemptions 2 Vax & CO to War. Because if those in power had their way, neither of these would have ever existed.
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#78 of 103 Old 05-05-2013, 11:58 PM
 
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Why did you put the word genetics in quotes? Are you not a believer in that theory either? And why would you say inferior? There is no superior or inferior when it comes to evolved traits. There is what worked or at least did not hurt much in the past, and it may or may not be helping the individual now. Sickle cell trait is s good example most people are familiar with.

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#79 of 103 Old 05-06-2013, 06:10 AM
 
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As WildKingdom says, it seems there is a real resistance here to the idea that sometimes, shit just happens.

Did someone say this (other than the OP).  Who?  

 

Some pro-vaxxers are hyper focusing on this in this thread - and I am not sure why.  Maybe they are hoping for some sort of Halo effect:  Let's take the position (good health choices contribute to good health), make them more extreme, jump to some weird conclusions  (aka Wild Kingdom) and hope all non-vaxxers looks bad? 

 

I think most people can see through this.

 

I also think the whole thing is irrelevant as far as not-vaxxing goes - I believe in "sh** happens" and still don't vax.  

 

The other reason I see for this line of discussion is fear mongering.  Hey if we can get people to admit "sh** happens" maybe they will start worrying it could happen to them.  In other word, let's engage in fear mongering.  If this is the purpose behind this line of questioning - let's have at it - but let's throw some commonly accepted stats behind them. Anyone want to discuss the risk of getting tetanus or diphtheria in the vaxxed versus unvaxxed in wealthy countries? 


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#80 of 103 Old 05-06-2013, 08:16 AM
 
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I believe that DNA exists, but I don't believe in genetic susceptibility. I believe in genetic resistance. I certainly reject Eugenics & It's entire legacy.

So here is an example of Genetic Resistance vs. Susceptibility: you spray some bugs with DDT. Only 50% die. You could say that that 50% were genetically susceptible to DDT, but I say 50% were genetically RESISTANT to something that is inherently toxic. It is a paradigm shift. Whereas now we might spend years researching the genes that caused the bugs to die from *inherent toxicity*, we could instead be researching which genes allowed the bugs to resist the toxic onslaught, or better yet: alternatives to DDT!

Same deal with Breast Cancer. We have tons of research into 'genetics' & instead we ignore the FACT that *most* women use makeup, hair products, cleaning products, etc. Chock Full of *known carcinogens*. Only like 25% of women nurse @ all in the US & we know that nursing 2 years reduces Breast Cancer risk 50% (Yale). But instead women are focused on 'Do I have BRAC1&2 & let me get a carcinogenic series of XRays every year' Instead of blaming the plastic factory up the street & getting some monetary help with treatment, women are encouraged to blame Great Aunt Sally.

So I mean that focus on genetic 'susceptibility' can be:
*A Form of Blame the Victim (no that Vax was awesome, it was just your kid's genes sucked, that's why they had a seizure after!)

*A Dead End (they pour tons of research into genetics for Autism & NOTHING has emerged there in terms of prevention or cure)

*Misleading (Sandra Steingraber says that 80% of Cancer is Environmental but the public believes it is mostly genetic & lifestyle)

*Eugenic (just a slightly more sophisticated modern version)

I feel that by Hyperfocusing on Genetics, we systematically ignore the area where we can make an impact for ALL people: the Environment (both macro & micro). I think it is a systematic ignoring so we can continue business as usual for Corporations & Polluters & just focus on 'hey, not EVERYone who lives near a (Frack Operation, Aerial Spray, Fiberglass Factory) gets cancer!' 'Only 1 in 31 boys get Autism' etc
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#81 of 103 Old 05-06-2013, 08:20 AM
 
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As WildKingdom says, it seems there is a real resistance here to the idea that sometimes, shit just happens.

 

I actually found WildKingdom's post one of the most disturbing, angry and frankly clueless posts I have read on this forum in a long while. To say shit just happens takes away all personal power and sovereignty over one's body and heath, and leaves us purely as victims. We are not victims. We all have the power to make choices in all aspects of our lives, and health being one of them. Yes, things sometimes appear to go wrong, but the current medical paradigm of blaming "bad genes" or "bad luck" plays right into big pharma's hands, "Don't worry, its not your fault, it was the bum hand your were drawn, but don't worry, we have a medication that will help you, it won't cure you though, but its all you have got, so don't go looking elsewhere for help, there is none." We are expected to accept our fate, take what they offer and not question.

 

Mother Nature is not a moron, she knows what she is doing and does it for a reason. For example, fever and rashes in "infectious" disease, are not "bad" things, they are the mechanisms that an intelligent body utilizes to heal itself, suppress them with pharmaceuticals and override the natural processes of the organism and shit happens. A malnourished, or compromised (by toxins, or a malfunctioning immune system for example) body will not necessarily have the ability, inner strength and resources to allow the organism to heal, and when a crisis hits, shit happens. It's not the healing process that is the cause, it is the inherent condition of the body which is not allowing the healing to proceed as it should. Take cancer, one in four people will be diagnosed with this disease sometime in their lives and this figure, despite the billions of dollars thrown at finding the cure, is still on the rise. The understanding and treatment of Cancer has been an epic fail. We still have no clue what Cancer is and why it occurs. However, scientists at the University of Arizona might know the answer to this question, and have stated, "Cancer is not a random bunch of selfish rogue cells behaving badly, but a highly-efficient pre-programmed response to stress, honed by a long period of evolution." I won't go into this in great detail, because it is way OT, but for those interested in the work, you can click here. Basically, Cancer can no longer be seen as something bad that happens to an intrinsically healthy body (shit happens), but rather it is something the body (innate wisdom) actively does in response to an intrinsically unhealthy cellular environment. It is an expression not of deviance, but of the body's intelligence and survival. Their work provides insight into how the disease process has inherent logic and the body's healing impulse to return to balance and survival. Interfere with that and shit may well happen. Cancer is a symptom, not a disease. In my life, I have known two people with bone Cancer, a childhood friend and my DH. My childhood friend was treated with everything western medicine had to offer, including limb amputation: he died. My DH had no treatment and completely healed from the Cancer seven years ago.

 

We do have power over how our body responds to challenges, we can choose to nurture the body to allow it to function optimally when challenged with nutritious food, clean water, exercise, sunlight, and where possible avoidance of environmental chemical toxins. I would also say, where possible, avoidance of western, slash, burn and cut, medicine (not saying there is no good in all western medicine - trauma care for example). By understanding the true nature of disease and how the body responds, rather than just throwing up your hands and saying this was just bad luck, shit happens, it empowers you to take responsibility for your own health and healing and to choose the right course of action for yourself and your children.

 

As for vaccines, if you choose to vaccinate your child or yourself, then yeah, shit can happen.


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#82 of 103 Old 05-06-2013, 09:04 AM
 
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The problem with taking the view Mother Nature knows what she's doing is that Mother Nature does not care about the survival of an individual, only of a species (if that even to be honest).

And also their are just random bad things which happen.

Are you seriously suggesting if people we more relaxed, ate better and avoided medicine they wouldn't die of cancer? Your friend aside, the statistics will show that people who are treated for cancer survive more often than those who don't get treated.

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#83 of 103 Old 05-06-2013, 09:21 AM
 
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Are you seriously suggesting if people we more relaxed, ate better and avoided medicine they wouldn't die of cancer? Your friend aside, the statistics will show that people who are treated for cancer survive more often than those who don't get treated.

are you serious as well? survival of cancer depends on type and what you simple mean by survival, to some DR and medical community that can mean as little as 5 years - it simply is not a blanket statement that holds true for all types of cancers - prostate cancer is a prime example of non-treatment vs treatment


 

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#84 of 103 Old 05-06-2013, 09:56 AM
 
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Of course different cancers have different survival rates. Doesn't invalidate my statement.

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#85 of 103 Old 05-06-2013, 09:56 AM
 
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The problem with taking the view Mother Nature knows what she's doing is that Mother Nature does not care about the survival of an individual, only of a species (if that even to be honest).

And also their are just random bad things which happen.

Are you seriously suggesting if people we more relaxed, ate better and avoided medicine they wouldn't die of cancer? Your friend aside, the statistics will show that people who are treated for cancer survive more often than those who don't get treated.

 

No, I am saying nothing of the sort. That is purely your chosen interpretation of my post. The object of your post seems to be to derail the thread, and I am not taking the bait. Waste of my time.


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#86 of 103 Old 05-06-2013, 10:03 AM
 
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No, I am saying nothing of the sort. That is purely your chosen interpretation of my post. The object of your post seems to be to derail the thread, and I am not taking the bait. Waste of my time.

I interpret your post wrong, and you interpret mine wrong. About par for the course on the vaccine boards I think.

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As WildKingdom says, it seems there is a real resistance here to the idea that sometimes, shit just happens.

Funny you should say this.

 

That's the typical response from the medical community to an awful lot of health problems that might actually have an identifiable cause: "shit happens."

 

You get intestinal symptoms and rashes after eating wheat?  No, it couldn't possibly be the gluten!  It's "IBS," aka "Inflammatory Bowel Syndrome," which has all the same symptoms of celiac disease, but um, we don't bother to test for celiac disease because it's vanishingly rare, you couldn't have that.  You know, shit happens. Here, eat all the gluten you want; just take these medicines for the rest of your life.  

 

You have dizziness, fluctuating hearing loss, tingling fingers and toes?  No, we won't test for B12 deficiency.  Nobody has that. You must have "Meniere's Disease," which isn't a disease at all, it's a syndrome, a collection of symptoms of unknown origin. And those symptoms include dizziness and fluctuating hearing loss. We'll give you steroids, and a truckload of other meds, including cortisone shots to the ear, which might result in permanent hearing loss. This is a lifelong condition (if you don't find and address the underlying cause), but, you know, shit happens.

 

Your child had a seizure reaction to a vaccine?  Nah, vaccines don't do that.  Oh, wait, all your kids have had varying severe reactions to vaccines?  And we can't tell which vaccines, becuase they were given so many at a time?  Oh, and you've had reactions yourself?  You were probably just imagining that it happened within a few hours of being given vaccines.  Oh, you called our office each and every time there was a reaction, within a few hours of the vaccinations, and we told you not to worry?  Oh well, shit happens.

 

You are tired all the time, your hair is falling out, you're constipated, you're cold all the time, you have no appetite, but you keep gaining weight?  No, we wouldn't THINK of testing your thyroid function!  You're at "that age" (I was still in my 20's) where you have to watch what you eat, you know?  What? You say you are following a rigid diet?  No, you must be lying.  It's not possible to gain weight on  a rigid diet.  You must be lying. Women are always looking for excuses for being fat, but you know what? Shit happens!

 

But according to Katie and WildKingdom, shit happens.  There is never any kind of underlying cause, group of causes, or even triggers.  It just happens.  They would like you to accept it. If you happen to find out that there actually are causes and triggers, don't tell them; they don't want to know about it, particularly if those causes have anything to do with what they or their child has been eating, drinking, or been injected with.  Because "shit happens." 

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#88 of 103 Old 05-06-2013, 11:30 AM
 
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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

Perhaps something we can all agree on - neither side is as black and white in their thinking as the "other side" seems to think.

Could we throw in there's not really sides, more a continuum of opinions too?

Back to the OP - why we're here debating it?

I'm OK with not generalizing about entire groups, but it's important for the advancement of these discussions to call out individual black-and-white arguments where we see them. Here are some examples of b & w arguments, perceptions, implications, and issue-framing that I've encountered OVER THE YEARS (read: I'm not providing links; you'll have to take my word for it) at least once in these forums:

1. "There are ZERO risks for not vaccinating."
2. Either diseases happens because shit happens OR it's completely a matter of personal choices.
3. Either you're pro-vax OR you're anti-vax.
4. Either you're pro-science and pro-vax OR you're anti-science and anti-vax.
5. Either vaccines are good and wonderful and perfect OR they're vile toxins.
6. Either you vax with everything and "on-schedule" OR you're "anti-vax."
7. "Vaccines are a black and white issue."
8. Either "natural" is good OR "natural" is bad.
9. Either you trust or doctor and obey OR you believe that all doctors are evil.
10.This study confirms my bias, so I'm going to defend it fully even though I haven't read anything beyond the abstract or a press release about it.

It's almost sad how quickly I came up with all of those . . .

In God we trust; all others must show data. selectivevax.gifsurf.gifteapot2.GIFintactivist.gif
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#89 of 103 Old 05-06-2013, 08:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

 

But according to Katie and WildKingdom, shit happens.  There is never any kind of underlying cause, group of causes, or even triggers.  It just happens.  They would like you to accept it. If you happen to find out that there actually are causes and triggers, don't tell them; they don't want to know about it, particularly if those causes have anything to do with what they or their child has been eating, drinking, or been injected with.  Because "shit happens." 

It's more that SOMETIMES shit happens. You can do everything "right" and still get nailed out of the sky by some bizarre disease. Sure, lots of things do have causes, but sometimes someone gets sick for a reason that really isn't discernible, and the rhetoric that every disease we get is something we brought on ourselves is not very respectful of people in this situation. 

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#90 of 103 Old 05-06-2013, 09:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

The problem with taking the view Mother Nature knows what she's doing is that Mother Nature does not care about the survival of an individual, only of a species (if that even to be honest).

And also their are just random bad things which happen.

Are you seriously suggesting if people we more relaxed, ate better and avoided medicine they wouldn't die of cancer? Your friend aside, the statistics will show that people who are treated for cancer survive more often than those who don't get treated.

The statistics of cancer patients is off topic. We would need information about those statistics before that point can be argued intelligently.
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