Should All Insurance Co's Require Vaccines or No Coverage? - Mothering Forums

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Old 05-05-2013, 05:01 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Or should they charge higher rates for unvaxed? 

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Old 05-05-2013, 06:18 AM
 
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No.  I don't think they should.

 

Actually, I think all insurance companies should take a flying leap off the closest bridge and we should go to a single-payer system.

 

I doubt I'll see it in my lifetime, though.

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Old 05-05-2013, 06:33 AM
 
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I doubt it, too, Wildkingdom.

No, I don't insurance companies should get involved in making health care decisions, or pushing health care choices. What they *should* do is help make insurance more affordable for all.
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Old 05-05-2013, 06:41 AM
 
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I doubt it, too, Wildkingdom.

No, I don't insurance companies should get involved in making health care decisions, or pushing health care choices. What they *should* do is help make insurance more affordable for all.

I'm with you and WildKingdom on this one.

Insurance companies exist for profit. Period.
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Old 05-05-2013, 08:10 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm with you and WildKingdom on this one.

Insurance companies exist for profit. Period.

i agree, however we see ins co's dictating what kind of treatments are covered at their discretion.  Will the day come when an inurer says, 'since you didn't vaccinate for 'x' disease, we are not going to cover expenses to treat it'   ..   

 

they already have a say so in what kind of treatments they will cover for injuries, cancer, autoimmune disease and a host of other things.....for example, my ins co didn't want to cover my asthma med i have been using for 10yrs--why?  there is a cheaper alternative out there...unf, it doesn't work for me as i'm allergic to it, was documented in the original referral for this other med, and it was STILL denied...i had to use old expired meds until i DEMANDED they pay or i'd take them to court on an appeal.  My dh is being denied pain saving treatments for his back injuries recieved in a car accident--why?- because pills are a lot cheaper to give him, than actual treatment for the disability.  

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Old 05-05-2013, 09:09 AM
 
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I'm confused by the question.

 

Do you mean, in an ideal world, should they?

 

Or, given that they make all these questionable decisions out of self-interest, should they also include vaccine-preventable diseases in this current frustrating insurance model?


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Old 05-05-2013, 10:04 AM
 
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While I would be furious if we were denied coverage/had to pay more because of our vax decisions, I think the argument could be made that they do that to smokers, why not non-vax ers too? In their eyes we are making a conscious choice to put ourselves at risk for VPD's or in a smokers case, cancer.

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Old 05-05-2013, 10:07 AM
 
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Or should they charge higher rates for unvaxed? 

Don't give them any ideas!

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Old 05-05-2013, 10:33 AM
 
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My insurance company has saved BOATLOADS by our Vax choices, and since we have not done any visits beyond the Well Schedule and also not contracted a single theoretically VPD, there would have to be some really costly bouts with VPDs to outweigh the savings from families that are like mine. We all know that insurance companies make money based decisions. I am with the others who want insurance companies making FEWER health decisons, not more. With Tobacco, the increase in health costs is staggering and undeniable. So FAR, non-vax families spend LESS on health care, not more. Gardasil series alone is like 600 dollars . . . My SIL's insurance company recently decided that she HAD to use Pentacel even tho her office stocked DTaP, Hib and IPV, when there is legit research that Pentacel is more reactive. So is that right?

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Old 05-05-2013, 10:36 AM
 
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Should they charge more for Soda drinkers? Research just came out that drinking even ONE can of HFCS soda per day increases your risk of Type II of diabetes substantially . . . 

 

Should they charge more if you don't join a gym or if you knowingly and willfully live in a very polluted place like NYC? What if you work in a factory where you are exposed to pollutants? And forget about Nuclear or Coal Plant workers, they should be denied all coverage entirely, right?

 

And since we KNOW that Breastfeeding reduces infant hospitalizations, do you think there should be a Formula Feeding rider? And what about those folks who expose their LOs to tobacco in the home? That is responsible for a significant portion of hospital admissions for asthma. So I guess if a nurse smells smoke on your child's clothes, they should double the bill.

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Old 05-05-2013, 10:37 AM
 
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This is actually my biggest fear with national health care: that the only way to control costs will be to limit services OR police behavior . . . 

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Old 05-05-2013, 11:28 AM
 
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This is actually my biggest fear with national health care: that the only way to control costs will be to limit services OR police behavior . . . 

I don't know how the USA would react to national health care - but I will say that some countries do manage to have universal health care without policing behavior.  

 

Speaking just for Canada, only 3 of the 10 provinces require any sort of exemptions for unvaxxed children to be enrolled in school and the exemptions are easy to get.  (For all the pro-vaxxer cringing - look up Canada's vax rate - they are as high as Americans).

 

I will also say that while I have heard of doctors in Canada refusing service to unvaxxed people (I have heard about it on the news) I have never met or conversed with someone online who was refused service due to  vaccine status..  Perhaps because we pay for health care with our tax dollars refusing to see patients just on vaccine grounds would not go over well. 

 

I do think there can be less products available under universal healthcare.  When we talk about different brands of vaccines for example, I know that I have less choice than Americans.  I may only have one or two brands available - and if I wanted another one, it would be a major PITA to get.

 

While i do think this is important for the small number of people who want vaccine brand choice, the exemption thing is far bigger in my mind.


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Old 05-05-2013, 11:32 AM
 
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Interesting Kathy! Thx for sharing!
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Old 05-05-2013, 12:32 PM
 
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I'm curious how Canadians pay for health care and parental leave. But maybe that's another thread...
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Old 05-05-2013, 01:36 PM
 
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Also Kathy: fewer choices ARE available in the US depending on your payer. Medicaid & Insurers both limit choices around vaxes & otherwise. An example is my new insurance WILL cover HomeBirth, but they won't cover it with a CPM unless my employer was based in another state that forces them too & there are no CNMs that practice out of hospital in my town. So it may sometimes appear that we have more choices in the US than we do. Mostly if you want choices you need CASH! wink1.gif
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Old 05-05-2013, 08:01 PM
 
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This is actually my biggest fear with national health care: that the only way to control costs will be to limit services OR police behavior . .

I am in the US and have never had my choice of Dr or even hospitals, I am restricted and have always been due to my health care insurance (private) no govt type ever - I will gladly welcome nation health care - I have had restricts all my life with health insurance, be it service provided, what they will cover, won't cover, pre approvals, etc - frankly some of the changes under the AFC will really help me and those who have been dealing with insurance companies that limit what they will provide!!


 

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Old 05-06-2013, 12:03 PM
 
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I am in the US and have never had my choice of Dr or even hospitals, I am restricted and have always been due to my health care insurance (private) no govt type ever - I will gladly welcome nation health care - I have had restricts all my life with health insurance, be it service provided, what they will cover, won't cover, pre approvals, etc - frankly some of the changes under the AFC will really help me and those who have been dealing with insurance companies that limit what they will provide!!

Do you think national healthcare in the US would NOT limit you? 


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Old 05-06-2013, 03:39 PM
 
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Do you think national healthcare in the US would NOT limit you? 

ah,,,,,,,,,compared to the last 40 plus year - NO!!!!!!!!joy.gif

 

if you have a lived with nothing but a PPO or an HMO you have a great desire for the ACA!!! 

 

 

IRL I know of only ONE person that has a conventional indemnity plan and this person had NO clue the others did not have this type of insurance and had to deal with (gasp!!!) in and out of networks! This person was shocked when we had this conversation - yea, it's real and it really really SUCKS to have no choices - I have only had company provided insurance plans and never have I had "so-called" choices, this person thought everyone had! I can not wait for the full ACA to go into effect - unless you have deal with restrictions and in and out of network, will cover this, won't cover this (and most you have NO CLUE about until AFTER the fact!!) than you will be like me and can't wait!! joy.gif joy.gif

 

ETA -  my state does not currently mandate that insurance companies pay for vaccines - you don't have do, you don't- if you paid a nice chunk each week of you pay for insurance and still had to pay out of pocket (and by the way, we don't vac and I could give you lists of things we personally dealt with over the years that were not covered) you would like to get what you pay for - even state (assistance) insurance gives more options and opting out of company insurance is not an option for most


 

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Old 05-06-2013, 04:54 PM
 
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While I would be furious if we were denied coverage/had to pay more because of our vax decisions, I think the argument could be made that they do that to smokers, why not non-vax ers too? In their eyes we are making a conscious choice to put ourselves at risk for VPD's or in a smokers case, cancer.

...except, if you have a severe reaction to a vaccine, your insurance will not cover the resulting medical bills.  Even if you call it "vaccine-induced seizure and resultant brain damage" rather than "autism," the therapies necessary for any degree of recovery (speech therapy, occupational therapy, physical therapy, ABA, etc.) are either not covered by standard health insurance, or are covered in such ridiculously small amounts (we were covered for exactly EIGHT speech therapy sessions) that it's like a sick joke.

 

So it's not really fair to compare non-vaxers to smokers.

 

For those of us who have severe reactions to vaccines, we would either have to pay more to avoid vaccination, or pay more for the care necessary after vaccine damage.

 

Either way, it's punishing those who cannot be vaccinated--and there is absolutely no system in place to pre-screen for those who might be likely to have reactions.

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Old 05-06-2013, 06:26 PM
 
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or are covered in such ridiculously small amounts (we were covered for exactly EIGHT speech therapy sessions) that it's like a sick joke.

 

So it's not really fair to compare non-vaxers to smokers. - I totally agree, and for all practical reasons vaccines are a great scapegoat but the bigger drain is in obesity related medical care costs, I can sooner see insurance going after the over weight first not vaccinators, vaccines seem like a quick money fix but really insurance companies deal with other more costly people.

 

or to add to your "sick joke" - try having to search within a 150 miles (and that was considered expectable under my previous insurance plan to drive to see a specialist) and find out when you try to make the apt they no longer will except your insurance! next you have to apply and show need to get a "waiver" to see someone else - that's really fun too because they only would cover 80% after I meet my deductible!


 

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Old 05-06-2013, 06:52 PM
 
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...except, if you have a severe reaction to a vaccine, your insurance will not cover the resulting medical bills.  Even if you call it "vaccine-induced seizure and resultant brain damage" rather than "autism," the therapies necessary for any degree of recovery (speech therapy, occupational therapy, physical therapy, ABA, etc.) are either not covered by standard health insurance, or are covered in such ridiculously small amounts (we were covered for exactly EIGHT speech therapy sessions) that it's like a sick joke.

So it's not really fair to compare non-vaxers to smokers.

For those of us who have severe reactions to vaccines, we would either have to pay more to avoid vaccination, or pay more for the care necessary after vaccine damage.

Either way, it's punishing those who cannot be vaccinated--and there is absolutely no system in place to pre-screen for those who might be likely to have reactions.

I completely agree that it is an unfair comparison, but I see that argument being used. I think Dinahx also brings up a valid point about all the other choices people make that put health at risk. I once read somewhere that an obnoxious amount of the worlds healthcare costs can be attributed to issues/illnesses that could be largely avoided by breast feeding. Why wouldn't that be targeted first? Or obesity? Or pollution? Non-vaxxing parents are on the periphery, we are the minority, and therefor are the most convenient scapegoat to pin health issues on. There would be a massive tantrum if people were charged more for every Big-Mac they ate, but non-vaxxers? We already have a bad enough rap in the eye of society that I see something like raising our healthcare costs or denying coverage as being something that the majority of people would not blink an eye at.

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Old 05-06-2013, 06:54 PM
 
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/10103324/

This isn't the original piece I had referred to, but demonstrates the same point

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Old 05-06-2013, 08:04 PM
 
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/10103324/

This isn't the original piece I had referred to, but demonstrates the same point

WOW.

 

"RESULTS: In the first year of life, after adjusting for confounders, there were 2033 excess office visits, 212 excess days of hospitalization, and 609 excess prescriptions for these three illnesses per 1000 never-breastfed infants compared with 1000 infants exclusively breastfed for at least 3 months. These additional health care services cost the managed care health system between $331 and $475 per never-breastfed infant during the first year of life."

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Old 05-06-2013, 08:05 PM
 
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You might notice that the 15 tricks used by formula companies, listed below, are EXACTLY the same tricks used by vaccine manufacturers....

 

http://www.thealphaparent.com/2011/10/15-tricks-of-formula-companies.html

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Old 05-07-2013, 10:22 AM - Thread Starter
 
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http://vaccineresistancemovement.org/?p=11806

 

 

 

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The modern healthcare system, like any powerful corporation, is designed to favor those who acquiesce with their rules & regulations; likewise to weed out & alienate those who do not fall into line with the rest of the “herd”. The entire cesspool of Western Allopathic Medicine, fueled by a powerful medical mafia monopoly, dominates our lives through an endless barrage of mainstream media propaganda, a giant social engineering model, run by select commitees of overpaid Technocratic Elites – void of any decent moral code of ethics, adherence to the Hippocratic oath or underlying sense of altruism toward humanity. How do we avoid their calibrated landmines, and retain what little we can of self reliance and self-sustaining capacity for natural immunity in these tyrannical times? We must reluctantly go along with their manufactured guidelines, in order to stand clear from the rest of the herd.  
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Old 05-07-2013, 10:28 AM
 
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http://vaccineresistancemovement.org/?p=11806

 

 

 

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The modern healthcare system, like any powerful corporation, is designed to favor those who acquiesce with their rules & regulations; likewise to weed out & alienate those who do not fall into line with the rest of the “herd”. The entire cesspool of Western Allopathic Medicine, fueled by a powerful medical mafia monopoly, dominates our lives through an endless barrage of mainstream media propaganda, a giant social engineering model, run by select commitees of overpaid Technocratic Elites – void of any decent moral code of ethics, adherence to the Hippocratic oath or underlying sense of altruism toward humanity. How do we avoid their calibrated landmines, and retain what little we can of self reliance and self-sustaining capacity for natural immunity in these tyrannical times? We must reluctantly go along with their manufactured guidelines, in order to stand clear from the rest of the herd.  

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Old 05-10-2013, 11:17 AM
 
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I'm not okay with insurers policing individual decisions like that. Even the surcharges for smokers make me uncomfortable, but if they're accompanied by support to help people quit I guess I support that reluctantly, since there really are no health benefits to smoking whereas there may be health benefits in some instances to not vaccinating. I have an issue with something being forced overall that is an individual decision. There needs to be good education on all these topics, but ultimately it is an individual choice. I also do not like the idea being pushed on people that making a particular choice that may cost them a lot of time/effort/money is definitely the best choice health-wise.

 

Breastfeeding, for instance. Certainly I think those who choose to breastfeed deserve support, but I don't think anyone should be guilted into it on the grounds that it's healthier. On a population level it's probably better than formula on some indicators, but that's no guarantee that those benefits will accrue to your individual child. Breastfeeding may be protective against ear infections, but my friend's breastfed 18-month-old just got tubes in his ears after his 7th ear infection. Just an example.

 

Bottom line: everyone should be able to make their own decisions based on what works best for them and their family. 

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Old 05-12-2013, 01:30 PM
 
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I agree with Pers.

 

As for it happening, I don't think it would. Coming from socialized medicine, it's not mandatory. In fact, the public insurance back home couldn't care less if you vaccinate or not.

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Old 05-12-2013, 04:49 PM
 
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Agreed! This question is moot for me, because in an ideal world, all healthcare would be available to all citizens of a country, paid for through taxes.

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Old 05-12-2013, 07:26 PM
 
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I agree with Pers.

As for it happening, I don't think it would. Coming from socialized medicine, it's not mandatory. In fact, the public insurance back home couldn't care less if you vaccinate or not.


Did pers post something on this thread that I missed? I just checked, and either I'm very tired and missing whole posts, or you are referencing something from somewhere else.
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