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#31 of 54 Old 05-08-2013, 10:53 PM
 
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""how much of it is based on believing that they dont do what they claim "

That is the reason that I don't vaccinate at all, so to answer your question, my belief on not vaccinating would remain the same.

I see that in this thread all but one other non-vaxer actually would vaccinate according to your scenario. Now I understand why in the other thread why so many people see a "potential" risk for "not vaccinating"---a lot of non-vaxers think that vaccines "do what they claim to do".
Hmmm….

It depends on what you mean by "do what they claim to do."

If the claim is they promote health - then no, I do not think they do what they claim to do.

if the claim is "prevent someone from getting a VAD or from VAD's making a resurgence" - then the answer is maybe.

It is highly disease and vaccine specific  

A
B

If A is "vaccines are the reason  VADs are kept at bay" and B is "vaccines have nothing to do with disease being kept at bay"  I am closer to B, than A, but it is quite disease specific.  

I think this is me as well. Although I am probably a bit closer to A than B. I do think that vaccines help to prevent people getting their respective diseases. But I also think nutrition, hygeine (personal and community), sleep, stress limitation etc all play a role as well. Vaccines are only one part of a large and complex arsenal.

I also don't believe that vaccines always do what is claimed. The example I usually use is pertussis vaccine not preventing transmission of pertussis. This one is particularly topicalt in Australia as the govt cancelled its program of free vaccination for parents last year when it was found not to have reduced the number of newborns getting pertussis.

I hadn't really thought about refusing vaccines as a way of not supporting pharmaceutical companies before reading this thread. I don't think that would stop me though. I use other pharmaceuticals, for both myself and my children, if I think they are warranted so I dont think boycotting one product line while happily using another is much of a protest.

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#32 of 54 Old 05-09-2013, 05:00 AM
 
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I hadn't really thought about refusing vaccines as a way of not supporting pharmaceutical companies before reading this thread. I don't think that would stop me though. I use other pharmaceuticals, for both myself and my children, if I think they are warranted so I dont think boycotting one product line while happily using another is much of a protest.

I do not think vaccines are a neccessity where I live- for a number of reasons (disease is typcially benign, disease has very low prevalence rate, etc).

 

I don't have any issues with boycotting a product I see as unnecessary.

 

If I thought vaccines were necessary for my families health - I would use them.  I would not allow politics and anger to stand in the way of a genuine health need.  

 

I will say my family  does use pharmaceutical products when need be - it all comes down to need.  


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#33 of 54 Old 05-09-2013, 05:34 AM
 
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I do not think vaccines are a neccessity where I live- for a number of reasons (disease is typcially benign, disease has very low prevalence rate, etc).

 

I don't have any issues with boycotting a product I see as unnecessary.

 

If I thought vaccines were necessary for my families health - I would use them.  I would not allow politics and anger to stand in the way of a genuine health need.  

 

I will say my family  does use pharmaceutical products when need be - it all comes down to need.  

 

I do agree that most VPDs are very rare in most developed countries. But those of you who believe in germ theory will understand that this does rely on a lot of other people continuing to use the vaccine (in most cases - tetanus is an obvious exception). I am curious if it bothers you that if everyone took this viewpoint and chose not to vaccinate the disease prevalence would likely rise (e.g. current issues with measles in the UK) and it would become more necessary to vaccinate?


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#34 of 54 Old 05-09-2013, 06:06 AM
 
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I do agree that most VPDs are very rare in most developed countries. But those of you who believe in germ theory will understand that this does rely on a lot of other people continuing to use the vaccine (in most cases - tetanus is an obvious exception). I am curious if it bothers you that if everyone took this viewpoint and chose not to vaccinate the disease prevalence would likely rise (e.g. current issues with measles in the UK) and it would become more necessary to vaccinate?

Not really - maybe a tad?  

 

The only 2 disease *I* think the herd immunity issue has a leg to stand when it comes to routine vaccination of infants and children is measles and Polio.  I am quite uncertain about measles, though, as the death rate is listed as 1/1000 to 1/5000 by mainstream sources.  I can live with 1/5000 and not 1/1000.  I am also learning that most measles deaths are in people outside of the age when measles typically fell in the prevaccine era (the shift in ages when people get measles might be caused somewhat by vaccines) and in people who were somewhat ill to begin with - which might be an argument for vaxxing those with other conditions such as asthma but not one for mass scale vaccination.

 

Polio - I think the 1/100 serious complication rate is too high.  It is one of the diseases  I would have selectively vaxxed for in a "vaccine are 100% safe scenario)

 

I also feel that vaxxing for things to keep rates low is not really a personal health move.  It is a public health move.  Inserting reality back into this dialogue (the real world where children do have vaccine reactions) I do not think it is ethical for a child to be placed in the position of possibly having a vaccine reaction over a disease they have virtually no chance of getting.  If they want to assume that risk when they are older, fine.  

 

Most people want to vax.  Might I potentially benefit from it  - as well as be harmed from it?  Sure.  Does it bother me I might benefit from other peoples voluntary actions?  Uh - no.  Does it bother me when that I might be harmed by their actions - well a little more, lol, but I fully believe in vaccine choice. The fact someone wants to give their child the chicken pox vaccines and is thus increasing the shingles rate for the gazillions of people who had wild CP is secondary to the idea that parents have the right to make vaccine decisions for their child as they see fit.  

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#35 of 54 Old 05-09-2013, 06:17 AM
 
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I do not think vaccines are a neccessity where I live- for a number of reasons (disease is typcially benign, disease has very low prevalence rate, etc).

I don't have any issues with boycotting a product I see as unnecessary.

If I thought vaccines were necessary for my families health - I would use them.  I would not allow politics and anger to stand in the way of a genuine health need.  

I will say my family  does use pharmaceutical products when need be - it all comes down to need.  

I do agree that most VPDs are very rare in most developed countries. But those of you who believe in germ theory will understand that this does rely on a lot of other people continuing to use the vaccine (in most cases - tetanus is an obvious exception). I am curious if it bothers you that if everyone took this viewpoint and chose not to vaccinate the disease prevalence would likely rise (e.g. current issues with measles in the UK) and it would become more necessary to vaccinate?

It is something I am aware of. If the overall vaccination rate in Australia was low and we had been having unusually high outbreaks of VPDs then we may have made a different decision. As it happens we are probably going to send our children to school in a town with one of the lowest vaccination rates on our state.

And, in case the next question is do I feel bad about freeloading on other people's decision to vaccinate, the answer is no, I don't. I support everyone's right to choose either way. I and my family may benefit from the choices other people make and I appreciate that. But I'm neither asking nor expecting others to vaccinate so we don't have to. If lots of other people chose not to then I would revisit our decision. As others have said, the decision not to vaccinate is not made once, there are many factors which influence us and if any of them change then we need to consider how to respond.
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#36 of 54 Old 05-09-2013, 06:57 AM
 
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I am curious if it bothers you that if everyone took this viewpoint and chose not to vaccinate the disease prevalence would likely rise (e.g. current issues with measles in the UK) and it would become more necessary to vaccinate?

To flip this around….

 

I am curious if the negative consequences of vaxxing bother you?  Example: the whole chicken pox/shingles situation, mothers having no real antibodies to give their newborns (as they were vaxxed and never got the disease)….

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#37 of 54 Old 05-09-2013, 09:56 AM
 
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 I am curious if it bothers you that if everyone took this viewpoint and chose not to vaccinate the disease prevalence would likely rise (e.g. current issues with measles in the UK) and it would become more necessary to vaccinate?

 

 

I am equally curious about this question you asked - regarding Wales and the UK, you do have the majority that have been vaccinated, yet you seem to imply the "current issues" are some how connected with everyone taking or choosing not to vaccinate and clearly that is not connected with the current measles outbreak there??? 90+ vaccine rates in certain area and over all rates well past 50% yet you lump the two together as connect dizzy.gif


 

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#38 of 54 Old 05-10-2013, 11:24 AM
 
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To flip this around….

 

I am curious if the negative consequences of vaxxing bother you?  Example: the whole chicken pox/shingles situation, mothers having no real antibodies to give their newborns (as they were vaxxed and never got the disease)….

I am saddenned, but not surprised, that pro-vaxxers have not tried to answer this question.  

 

My desire to converse with people who only question others and never explain themselves or their postion is significantly waning.  

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#39 of 54 Old 05-10-2013, 07:10 PM
 
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I am saddenned, but not surprised, that pro-vaxxers have not tried to answer this question.  

My desire to converse with people who only question others and never explain themselves or their postion is significantly waning.  
I for one disagree that the things you have mentioned are negative results of vaccination. The CP vaccine will require a currently uncertain number of boosters through the lifetime, in order to replace the former wild exposures. If more adults and kids got vaccinated with appropriate boosters, newborns wouldn't get exposed to many diseases. I didn't bother to answer before because your question assumed a premise that I don't share and that has been hashed out in other threads.
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#40 of 54 Old 05-10-2013, 07:48 PM
 
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I for one disagree that the things you have mentioned are negative results of vaccination. The CP vaccine will require a currently uncertain number of boosters through the lifetime, in order to replace the former wild exposures.

I think you are misunderstanding me.  You are focusing on the vaccinated, and ignoring the millions of people who got CP before a vaccine existed.  What is to be their recourse?  They get to assume the risks of boosters or a shingles vaccines  partly because of the actions of people who vaccinated their children for chicken pox.  Or they can just live with a higher risk of shingles and not vaccinate.  Perhaps you do not care about the many people who came before the CP vaccine existed, and that is fine, just don't turn around and whine that non-vaxxers are selfish.  


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#41 of 54 Old 05-10-2013, 08:12 PM
 
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I think you are misunderstanding me.  You are focusing on the vaccinated, and ignoring the millions of people who got CP before a vaccine existed.  What is to be their recourse?  They get to assume the risks of boosters or a shingles vaccines  partly because of the actions of people who vaccinated their children for chicken pox.  Or they can just live with a higher risk of shingles and not vaccinate.  Perhaps you do not care about the many people who came before the CP vaccine existed, and that is fine, just don't turn around and whine that non-vaxxers are selfish.  

Yeah, they can get boosters. What risks do you think they can get from a booster that they can't get from being exposed to a sick kid?  If they get a booster at least they know for a fact that they are being exposed to a degree that should keep their immune system on top of the virus. I think it's a win-win.

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#42 of 54 Old 05-10-2013, 08:47 PM
 
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The chicken pox vaccine has risks.  This (really basic, whitewashed) information sheet even admits it.  Pneumonia and seizures are listed as 2 of the possible vaccine reactions:

 

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/vis/downloads/vis-varicella.pdf

 

I am not going to bother looking up the vaccine risks for shingles, but I assume there are some. All vaccines have risks.  The shingles vaccine is not very effective, btw (50% ish), not covered by all insurance and is sometimes only covered after age 60.  It is a poor substitute for immune boosting through wild exposure.

 

On the other hand, if you know you have been exposed to chicken pox, being around a kid with chicken pox carries no risk.  What risk is there if you are already immune to it?  90% of people do not get chicken pox twice and we can often tell who is vulnerable to repeat disease - the immuno-compromised  (IIRC) and those who got CP before age 4.  


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#43 of 54 Old 05-13-2013, 11:57 AM
 
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Yeah, they can get boosters. What risks do you think they can get from a booster that they can't get from being exposed to a sick kid?  If they get a booster at least they know for a fact that they are being exposed to a degree that should keep their immune system on top of the virus. I think it's a win-win.

How exactly is injecting something I feel to be harmful in my body a win win? It's only a win-win if you believe the CP vaccine to be risk free. I'd rather be around a child that has CP - thanks anyway 

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This is off topic, but I am seriously concerned. Kate8681: do you find your views to be typical amongst your fellow CNMs? I am in the process of selecting care for my next birth, and am now nervous about choosing CNM care (which I generally believe to be safer) if there is in fact a HUGE philosophical chasm between my beliefs regarding vaccines and typical CNM views on vaccines as well as a level of animosity toward my views. So would you say you are extremely ProVax amongst your CNM peers or just in the middle?

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#45 of 54 Old 05-13-2013, 12:39 PM
 
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This is off topic, but I am seriously concerned. Kate8681: do you find your views to be typical amongst your fellow CNMs? I am in the process of selecting care for my next birth, and am now nervous about choosing CNM care (which I generally believe to be safer) if there is in fact a HUGE philosophical chasm between my beliefs regarding vaccines and typical CNM views on vaccines as well as a level of animosity toward my views. So would you say you are extremely ProVax amongst your CNM peers or just in the middle?

Just wanted to chime in here - Katie8681 will obviously answer the question - but I did want to say that I have had 2 births with CNM's now having contact with 8 all together and NONE of them were anything but respectful of my choices and beliefs. They may have advocated for certain vaccines, but never pushed or were hostile about my refusing (or made me feel bad about my intentions to not vaccinate my kids). 


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#46 of 54 Old 05-13-2013, 01:28 PM
 
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Just wanted to chime in here - Katie8681 will obviously answer the question - but I did want to say that I have had 2 births with CNM's now having contact with 8 all together and NONE of them were anything but respectful of my choices and beliefs. They may have advocated for certain vaccines, but never pushed or were hostile about my refusing (or made me feel bad about my intentions to not vaccinate my kids). 

Exactly my experience as well. I love CNM's!
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#47 of 54 Old 05-13-2013, 01:41 PM
 
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This is off topic, but I am seriously concerned. Kate8681: do you find your views to be typical amongst your fellow CNMs? I am in the process of selecting care for my next birth, and am now nervous about choosing CNM care (which I generally believe to be safer) if there is in fact a HUGE philosophical chasm between my beliefs regarding vaccines and typical CNM views on vaccines as well as a level of animosity toward my views. So would you say you are extremely ProVax amongst your CNM peers or just in the middle?

Well, it's not really cool to call me out like that, that there is a PM function on this site, AND I am just a couple hours post-call of an action packed 24 hour shift, so probably should not be allowed to even be on the Internet right now. But, to answer your loaded question, many/most CNMs probably think vaccination is a good public health measure, think the research supporting their safety and efficacy are accurate, do not think they cause autism/autoimmune disease/bad hair days/whatever. Some CNMs are more Dr Sears fans, some of them are against vaccinations. However, my clients/patients are all over the board with their opinions and practices, both for themselves and their babies. I have never butted heads with anyone over it, at all. I say something like, Have you gotten a flu shot this year? They say "nope we don't vaccinate." I say "oh ok" and move on. And no, no snark. I know they have done tons of reading and made a purposeful decision and it's not going to do anything but make for a crappy client/provider relationship if I'm like, yeah but there's a hole in your logic, blah blah blah. I disagree with their opinion but the fact is, although vaccinations are important for good health and I worry about pregnant women getting flu and ending up on a vent in the ICU, I serve her better by supporting her health in what ways I can during her pregnancy and beyond. That's how I feel as a midwife. Don't pick a less safe provider because there's a CNM on the Internet you think is a b!tch. That's biting your nose to spite your face.

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#48 of 54 Old 05-13-2013, 03:33 PM
 
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Okay: wasn't trying to call anyone out: was asking about philosophy in a discipline. I am proud of my stance & respect others who are proud of theirs. I certainly don't dislike anyone on this forum. My apologies if my post gave that impression.
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#49 of 54 Old 05-13-2013, 07:00 PM
 
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I'm surprised to see a CNM in favor of the flu shot, given the risk of miscarriage.  

http://het.sagepub.com/content/early/2012/09/12/0960327112455067.full

also discussed here:

http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/study-confirms-anecdotal-link-between-flu-vax-and-miscarriage/

 

I had to be in a high-risk practice for my babies, so no CNM for me (though that would have been my first choice otherwise), but even in the high-risk practice, they absolutely frown on vaccines during pregnancy, and they question the efficacy of the flu shot as well, even after delivery.  The Cochrane Review has made rather a big deal about the low efficacy of the flu shot.  Couple that with ANY increase in risk of miscarriage, and then take a look at this partial list of admitted and compensated severe adverse effects of the flu shot JUST FROM 2012; these cases were admitted and compensated by the US government.

http://drtenpenny.com/vaccine-court-judgements-for-flu-shot-injuries/

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#50 of 54 Old 05-13-2013, 07:28 PM
 
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I'm surprised to see a CNM in favor of the flu shot, given the risk of miscarriage.  
http://het.sagepub.com/content/early/2012/09/12/0960327112455067.full
also discussed here:
http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/study-confirms-anecdotal-link-between-flu-vax-and-miscarriage/

I had to be in a high-risk practice for my babies, so no CNM for me (though that would have been my first choice otherwise), but even in the high-risk practice, they absolutely frown on vaccines during pregnancy, and they question the efficacy of the flu shot as well, even after delivery.  The Cochrane Review has made rather a big deal about the low efficacy of the flu shot.  Couple that with ANY increase in risk of miscarriage, and then take a look at this partial list of admitted and compensated severe adverse effects of the flu shot JUST FROM 2012; these cases were admitted and compensated by the US government.
http://drtenpenny.com/vaccine-court-judgements-for-flu-shot-injuries/

VAERS can't be relied on to accurately reflect the rate of miscarriage let alone to prove some kind of relationship between vaccination and miscarriage. "The Internet was abuzz with reports of miscarriage" following the administration of flu vaccine? Oh please!

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#51 of 54 Old 05-13-2013, 10:51 PM
 
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Okay, I do have to categorically reject categorical dismissal of VAERS. Altho I personally do not link to Dr. Tenpenny (I have actually never heard or read her work, full disclosure), VAERS is the best data set we have. 
 

The Hulk incidence proves it is actually tightly monitored, if with wide margins of legitimacy. We are truly lucky to have an adverse event reporting system and it pains me, on a science level, to have it so routinely dismissed.

 

Having been around mothers and mothering boards for years, most adverse events temporally related to vax are dismissed as coincidences, and never reported.

 

So how do we propose to track miscarriages that occur while adhering to the emerging 'fetal vaccination schedule' if not through VAERS?

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#52 of 54 Old 05-14-2013, 08:43 AM
 
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http://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/vaccination/prams-flu-vaccination.htmhttp://www.cdc.gov/flu/pdf/fluvaxview/pregnant-women-2012.pdf

 

Look how many more pregnant women got the vaccine that flu season. Because that strain of flu is particularly bad for pregnant women. So.... if miscarriage is a very common experience, and more pregnant women than usual got the vaccine that year, then you would actually expect to see an increase in reports of miscarriage. Not to mention the fact that women with risk factors for miscarriage (older, smokers) are more strongly urged than others to get vaccinated than healthier pregnant women. 

 

I support flu vaccination for pregnant women because I like pregnant women and their babies to stay alive. I'm such a monster.


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#53 of 54 Old 05-14-2013, 08:46 AM
 
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Are there strict reporting requirements for miscarriage? I am pretty sure it is not tracked like live births . . .

In their PRAMS study linked above, their questionnaire was only given to women who did NOT miscarry.
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#54 of 54 Old 05-14-2013, 10:45 AM
 
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I linked to the PRAMS report to show that more pregnant women were encouraged to get vaccinated in that flu season than others.

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