Malcolm Brabant: 'I suffered psychosis after a routine injection' - Mothering Forums

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Old 05-27-2013, 10:23 AM - Thread Starter
 
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/wellbeing/10076221/Malcolm-Brabant-I-suffered-psychosis-after-a-routine-injection.html

This is a sad story about about Brabant's catastrophic reaction to Sanofi Pasteur's yellow fever vaccine. What's worse is the response from Sanofi Pasteur:

 

 

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"Less than 10 cases relating mental disorders, including Mr Brabant’s, have been reported. None of them have resulted in a complaint.

We have no data that leads us to believe that the batch may have been contaminated. The batch [that Malcolm Brabant's came from] had passed the numerous quality controls both with the manufacturer and the competent authorities prior to release. The batch had met all release specifications and none of the tests have shown any signal of a quality issue.

Good to know.....you better hope you're not one of those "rare" cases! The manufacturer has no accountability, and it's the "victim's fault" I guess. The batch was not to blame!


 
 
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Old 05-27-2013, 10:51 AM
 
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That's horrible.

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Old 05-27-2013, 11:04 AM
 
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If it was only 10 cases, it would idicate conincednce rather than causation. People do have psychotic episodes out of the blue and more oftne  than lay people  think.

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Old 05-27-2013, 11:20 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Why is it impossible for it to be a rare reaction? Did you read the article?

 

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On Friday afternoon, Brabant was given Stamaril. By Saturday morning it was clear something was wrong. “When I got up, Malcolm had not made my coffee,” says Trine. “It sounds ridiculous but he made it every day of our marriage. I went downstairs and he was sitting at the table motionless, lobster red and burning up.”

 

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He was admitted to hospital and antiviral drugs administered, but it was only when he was given steroids, nearly two weeks after he fell ill, that his temperature came down. By then his behaviour had become increasingly bizarre.

So, does this sound like coincidence now? If it were anything else instead of a vaccine, would you still believe it was mere coincidence? If this happened after he ate at a restaurant, I guarantee the restaurant would be under investigation. Why not the vaccine?


 
 
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Old 05-27-2013, 11:28 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Oh, and I adore Oregano Oil.....but if I read a story like this where a man became ill after taking Oregano Oil, I would suspect he had a rare reaction to it.  Just because you like vaccines does not mean you must defend them in every single case. Sometimes, reactions DO happen. I would hope the medical community would want to study the RARE individuals who suffer these RARE reactions. Instead, reactions are usually denied, as in the case above. 

 

I'll say it again for the hundredth time--I don't vaccinate, so those who DO vaccinate should be concerned with these "rare" cases. You never know if you or your child will become that "one in a million"! Or worse, if you will become one whose reaction is denied.  If I vaccinated, this would concern me, and I would hope the rare reactions were studied, not ignored or denied.


 
 
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Old 05-27-2013, 11:28 AM
 
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What Alenushka said. The question is, is the incidence of new-onset psychosis cases in people who have just received the YF vax higher than in the general population? How many people have received the YF vax relative to the number who have had such an episode? And there wouldn't be a trigger event for the general population, so you would just have to survey some random sample of people (and it would have to be a really big sample to get enough statistical power), follow them for a month or so, and see how many have a psychotic break. Then comparing those numbers would help show whether it might be related to the vaccine or is random.

 

According to Wikipedia, over 500 million doses of the vaccine have been given. Even if the number of cases of psychosis has been underreported by 99%, that still means 1000/500,000,000=0.0002% of people have a psychotic episode after the vaccine, or 2 out of 1 million. I'd be really surprised if that was higher than the background rate in the general population. 

 

His psychosis started right after the vaccine, but we can't know for sure if it was or was not a coincidence. Even assuming the vaccine did trigger his psychosis, I don't think that's any reason for anybody else to avoid the vaccine, because 2 cases out of a million vaccines is ... really not that many. YF isn't a routine vaccine. It is only given to people who are traveling to an affected area, and the chance of severe sequelae from the yellow fever disease is a lot higher than 0.0002%. 

 

On the other hand, it sure would be nice to have information on the overall rate for psychosis triggered by various medications and whether it's more common in those with some kind of physiologic predisposition--and what such a predisposition would consist of, for that matter. There is not a lot of information out there about this and I do think it's a field that should be studied more. 

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Old 05-27-2013, 11:31 AM
 
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There is body of data on many meds taht can trigger psychotic reactions. Some of them carry clear warning for certain groups like Abilify for the elderely with dementia  etc

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Old 05-27-2013, 11:58 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeckyBird View Post

 

I'll say it again for the hundredth time--I don't vaccinate, so those who DO vaccinate should be concerned with these "rare" cases. You never know if you or your child will become that "one in a million"! Or worse, if you will become one whose reaction is denied.  If I vaccinated, this would concern me, and I would hope the rare reactions were studied, not ignored or denied.

 

100% agree.  

 

Don't let defending vaccines become what you (general you) do, instead of demanding safe and effective vaccines for the children you vaccinate.

 

I wonder if the polarisation on this issue is letting vaccine makers off the hook (which, as Beckybird says, is problematic for those who do vaccinate)

 

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On the other hand, it sure would be nice to have information on the overall rate for psychosis triggered by various medications and whether it's more common in those with some kind of physiologic predisposition--and what such a predisposition would consist of, for that matter. There is not a lot of information out there about this and I do think it's a field that should be studied more. 

That would be nice.


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Old 05-27-2013, 01:10 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Let's assume he is the only person in the world who reacted to the vaccine. Why is the manufacturer not responsible?

I am not worried about his story influencing others not to vaccinate. I am concerned about the response from the manufacturer, when it is very possible that the vaccine did cause him harm. He may be the only one in the world, but if it's true and the manufacturer did nothing to compensate......doesn't this concern you? They don't even seem to be interested in an investigation.


 
 
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Old 05-27-2013, 04:18 PM
 
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What I can never understand is why is the vaccination reaction shrugged off, but disease complications are not? Why are they not the same? It is not really how many get chicken pox, or whatever, but how many suffer complications versus how many suffer vaccine reactions. Of course, in order to do that, vaccine reactions must first be acknowledged.
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Old 05-28-2013, 04:14 AM
 
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Had it been pills he was taking and became allergic to them or had the same kind of reaction, some kind of attention would have been paid...but since it was a 'never failing vaccine', harm couldn't possibly have come from that fine tool of modern medicine. 

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Old 05-29-2013, 04:12 AM
 
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Old 05-29-2013, 01:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeckyBird View Post

Why is it impossible for it to be a rare reaction? Did you read the article?

 

 

So, does this sound like coincidence now? If it were anything else instead of a vaccine, would you still believe it was mere coincidence? If this happened after he ate at a restaurant, I guarantee the restaurant would be under investigation. Why not the vaccine?

 

 

Who has said it was impossible?   Absolutely no one, as far as I can tell.  It's extremely unlikely, but not impossible. 

 

Just because two unlikely events occur in close proximity to each other does not mean that the first caused the second.  There is a VAERS report of a girl died by falling down a well after being vaccinated with Gardasil.  Should the manufacturer have been held responsible for that since if happened afterwards?  That is of course a bit different since it's much easier to see that the two are unrelated, but it's a good example of how unusual things do happen from time to time and getting a vaccine doesn't stop that.  

 

He's older than most people usually have a first psychotic breaks, but psychosis can come very on suddenly with no known cause and there is no reason to expect that getting a yellow fever vaccine will stop a psychotic break that is already setting up to happen.  It could have just been the time it was going to happen to him, or he could have been coming down with a virus that somehow triggered this.  Or it could have been the vaccine.  But with 300 million doses distributed and only a very small number of reports of mental illness following it apparently no cases quite like his, it's almost certainly an unfortunate coincidence of timing.  

 

It's good it was reported so they can keep an eye out for a pattern if this happens to anyone else, but right now there is no evidence that there is a pattern or anything beyond timing to indicate causation.   And would a restaurant be investigated if it happened afterwards?  It would be curious to ask on a message board for people dealing with stuff like this and find out if any of them ate out within a day or so of noticing their first psychotic break and if so, if the place they ate was investigated.  I'm betting there have never been any restaurant investigations for this sort of thing.  On the other hand, while the family may not be feel they did enough or be happy with the outcome, it appears the manufacturer in this case did at least investigate.  

 

 

 

 

Well, that would be quite something if they did admit it.  But did they actually?  She didn't provide a quote or a link to this statement, so I'm thinking she may be getting this from their statement that there are less than ten reports of mental disorders of any sort following the vaccine and thinking that is an admission that the vaccine caused those ten mental disorders?  Or did they say something else somewhere that I just haven't seen?

 

I feel terrible both for him for going through this and her for having to go through it with him.  It is human nature to try and find a reason to cling to for why a bad thing happened.  I'd probably be doing the same thing in her shoes.  But with no one else having had it happen to them (she mentions a couple people with mental problems, but with few specifics and the ones she does give makes it seem they had very different experiences), I don't think the reason they are clinging to is a true one, and I think if he hadn't gotten the vaccine that day, he would have had pretty much horrific experience, just with no clear scapegoat to blame it on.  But we will never know. 

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Old 05-29-2013, 01:22 PM
 
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It's good it was reported so they can keep an eye out for a pattern if this happens to anyone else, but right now there is no evidence that there is a pattern or anything beyond timing to indicate causation.   

There is no point in reporting anything.  They will just deny, deny, deny.  I say skip shots. 

 

I am in a bit of a mood today, but not feeling very sorry for the 50 year old man, although I am glad he is telling his story.  Everyone should reasearch vaccines before doing them (they are not emergency medicine where people do not have time to research).  He should know vaccines have crappy and unknown side effects at unknown rates. He voluntarily rolled the dice.  It is not like a child who is not old enough to consent to rolling the dice.  

 

(ETA - my first line seems a bit extreme.  If you are going to vaccinate, report any reaction if it is an easy thing to do.  Just don't expect any reaction to be be believed or used in any useful way. )


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Old 05-29-2013, 02:49 PM
 
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There is no point in reporting anything.  They will just deny, deny, deny.  I say skip shots. 

 

I am in a bit of a mood today, but not feeling very sorry for the 50 year old man, although I am glad he is telling his story.  Everyone should reasearch vaccines before doing them (they are not emergency medicine where people do not have time to research).  He should know vaccines have crappy and unknown side effects at unknown rates. He voluntarily rolled the dice.  It is not like a child who is not old enough to consent to rolling the dice.  

 

(ETA - my first line seems a bit extreme.  If you are going to vaccinate, report any reaction if it is an easy thing to do.  Just don't expect any reaction to be be believed or used in any useful way. )

 

I do think there should be a better tracking system looking for side effects and have high hopes that we will start to see these as more places move to systems such as we have here where all health records from people in the province are kept in the same centralized database instead of just kept by individual doctors.  

 

However, here are many known side effects listed for vaccines.  There have been vaccines taken off the market due to concern over side effects.  None of this would have happened without those side effects being reported. 

 

Would you feel sorry for him if his book had been just his personal story of his sudden descent into madness with no mention of receiving a vaccine because his appt. to get one had been the next week, by which time his condition was already apparent, so he never got the vaccine?  It's a horrible thing to have happen. 

 

While sudden psychosis is probably not a side effect of the yellow fever vaccine, it is less safe than most other vaccines and does have a number of scary known side effects.  I knew this and had read about the scary side effects in 1996 when I was preparing for a trip to Peru.  I also knew that just the year before Peru had had the largest outbreak of yellow fever in the Americas in over half a century and a few hundred people have died.  I went ahead and got the vaccine and took my anti-malarials and scratched my many mosquito bites (despite bed netting and bug spray) without too much concern.  Would I have deserved little sympathy had I been one of the unfortunates who had a bad reaction to the vaccine?  Would I have deserved little sympathy had I chose to forgo the vaccine and been one of the unfortunates who got the disease?  Whether you choose the risk of the vaccine or choose to forgo the vaccine and have a much higher risk of the disease, it's a gamble either way.    

 

Of course, the safest option would have been to stay home, but then I would have missed out on a great experience.  Sometimes you just make your choices and then hope for the best.  That doesn't mean you don't deserve sympathy if those choices bite you in the butt.  No one lives an entirely safe life. 

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Old 05-29-2013, 03:25 PM
 
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Why bring up Gardasil and the point? Doesn't Gardasil cause dizziness in some, which means Gardasil *could* be responsible for the death. A poor example, though I understand the point.
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Old 05-29-2013, 04:09 PM
 
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Not feeling very sorry for=/= not having any sympathy for.  

 

Assuming this is a vaccine reaction….I do not feel any more or less sympathy for him than I would anyone else who had a serious drug side effect.  

 

*I* am personally feeling frustrated with people who complain about vaccine reactions in this day and age after they got the vaccine. Where is the personal responsibility?  Have you (general you) been living under a rock?  You do not know that there is a a vaccine controversy?  If I took any pharmaceuticals and experienced an undesirable side effect, I would expect some sympathy, but not any hand wringing.  I am an adult.  I can read the pamphlet insert.  Now, if the side effects were hidden, white-washed, etc (which sometimes does happen with vaccines) that is a different story - but this was an educated man.  He should have read the potential side effects.  If this is possibly a new side effect, well that is too bad, but unknown side effects are a possible reaction to drugs.    

 

Either way, I am not the one who continues to get and advocate vaccines knowing that they cause crap, and that some of this crap is at an unknowable rate (partly do to the outright dismissal of most reports of vaccine reaction as "coincidence!".)

 

I realise this posts and my previous one may come across as a little harsh to those who have experienced a vaccine reaction.  I get that - and do not wish to hurt or offend anyone.  I also get that some of these vaccine reactions happened in a different era in some ways.   Today, though, the focus needs to shift.  It needs to shift towards one of personal and parental responsibility - not simply following what the doctor say and then complaining afterwards when things go wrong.  Take responsibility for the decision yourself, and things might still go wrong, but at least you can own your choices.  


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Old 05-29-2013, 04:13 PM
 
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Sometimes you just make your choices and then hope for the best.  That doesn't mean you don't deserve sympathy if those choices bite you in the butt.  No one lives an entirely safe life. 

I think this is a great point. Well said.

After reading the links, I do tend to want to give the couple credit for their suspicion that his sudden illness was a reaction to the vaccine. He suffered a physical illness a short time after taking a drug, and mental illness followed the physical response. It seems perfectly reasonable to suspect the drug, IMO, and not far-fetched at all.

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Old 05-29-2013, 10:29 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by pers View Post

 it's almost certainly an unfortunate coincidence of timing.  

 

I disagree. If his story is true, and they have proof, I would blame the vaccine. Here's why:

 

Quote:
 Friday afternoon, Brabant was given Stamaril. By Saturday morning it was clear something was wrong.
...he was sitting at the table motionless, lobster red and burning up.”
...nearly two weeks after he fell ill, that his temperature came down. By then his behaviour had become increasingly bizarre.

So, if he can prove that he received the vaccine Friday afternoon, and went to see a doctor on Saturday, and had documented proof of fever that day--a fever that lasted 2 weeks!-- in my opinion, it  is almost certainly an unfortunate reaction to the vaccine.

 

Couldn't a 2 week-long fever damage the brain and cause a mental breakdown? "A psychotic episode is when you lose touch with reality for whatever period of time the episode occurs. It can be caused by a brain tumor, thyroid condition, fever, infection, drug use, or a bad reaction to a prescription drug."

 

And, why does it matter if this hasn't happened to anyone else before? If this type of reaction happened to less than 10 people, so what? How many people should experience this before it can be officially considered a reaction? 1000 people? More, less?  


 
 
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Old 05-30-2013, 06:41 AM
 
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Not feeling very sorry for=/= not having any sympathy for.  

Assuming this is a vaccine reaction….I do not feel any more or less sympathy for him than I would anyone else who had a serious drug side effect.  

*I* am personally feeling frustrated with people who complain about vaccine reactions in this day and age after they got the vaccine. Where is the personal responsibility?  Have you (general you) been living under a rock?  You do not know that there is a a vaccine controversy?  If I took any pharmaceuticals and experienced an undesirable side effect, I would expect some sympathy, but not any hand wringing.  I am an adult.  I can read the pamphlet insert.  Now, if the side effects were hidden, white-washed, etc (which sometimes does happen with vaccines) that is a different story - but this was an educated man.  He should have read the potential side effects.  If this is possibly a new side effect, well that is too bad, but unknown side effects are a possible reaction to drugs.    

Either way, I am not the one who continues to get and advocate vaccines knowing that they cause crap, and that some of this crap is at an unknowable rate (partly do to the outright dismissal of most reports of vaccine reaction as "coincidence!".)

I realise this posts and my previous one may come across as a little harsh to those who have experienced a vaccine reaction.  I get that - and do not wish to hurt or offend anyone.  I also get that some of these vaccine reactions happened in a different era in some ways.   Today, though, the focus needs to shift.  It needs to shift towards one of personal and parental responsibility - not simply following what the doctor say and then complaining afterwards when things go wrong.  Take responsibility for the decision yourself, and things might still go wrong, but at least you can own your choices.  

Well and good for people in Britain and Canada. But try telling all of that to someone in West Virginia. Or Mississippi. Or the U.S. military. Or whose hospital employer's paychecks feed the family. Try telling that to the parent who just humiliatingly detailed his/her intimate beliefs to unelected officials only to have an exemption denied. It gets a little harder to blame someone for owning their choices, don't you think? The right to informed consent isn't to be taken for granted.

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Old 05-30-2013, 06:41 AM
 
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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

Not feeling very sorry for=/= not having any sympathy for.  

Assuming this is a vaccine reaction….I do not feel any more or less sympathy for him than I would anyone else who had a serious drug side effect.  

*I* am personally feeling frustrated with people who complain about vaccine reactions in this day and age after they got the vaccine. Where is the personal responsibility?  Have you (general you) been living under a rock?  You do not know that there is a a vaccine controversy?  If I took any pharmaceuticals and experienced an undesirable side effect, I would expect some sympathy, but not any hand wringing.  I am an adult.  I can read the pamphlet insert.  Now, if the side effects were hidden, white-washed, etc (which sometimes does happen with vaccines) that is a different story - but this was an educated man.  He should have read the potential side effects.  If this is possibly a new side effect, well that is too bad, but unknown side effects are a possible reaction to drugs.    

Either way, I am not the one who continues to get and advocate vaccines knowing that they cause crap, and that some of this crap is at an unknowable rate (partly do to the outright dismissal of most reports of vaccine reaction as "coincidence!".)

I realise this posts and my previous one may come across as a little harsh to those who have experienced a vaccine reaction.  I get that - and do not wish to hurt or offend anyone.  I also get that some of these vaccine reactions happened in a different era in some ways.   Today, though, the focus needs to shift.  It needs to shift towards one of personal and parental responsibility - not simply following what the doctor say and then complaining afterwards when things go wrong.  Take responsibility for the decision yourself, and things might still go wrong, but at least you can own your choices.  

Well and good for people in Britain and Canada. But try telling all of that to someone in West Virginia. Or Mississippi. Or the U.S. military. Or whose hospital employer's paychecks feed the family. Try telling that to the parent who just humiliatingly detailed his/her intimate beliefs to unelected officials only to have an exemption denied. It gets a little harder to blame someone for owning their choices, don't you think? The right to informed consent isn't to be taken for granted.

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Old 05-30-2013, 06:44 AM
 
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Um, sorry. I guess I'm in a Mood, too. We have a whole slew of crappy anti-choice, vax-fanatic legislation pending in the U.S. irked.gif

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Old 05-30-2013, 08:02 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post


Well and good for people in Britain and Canada. But try telling all of that to someone in West Virginia. Or Mississippi. Or the U.S. military. Or whose hospital employer's paychecks feed the family. Try telling that to the parent who just humiliatingly detailed his/her intimate beliefs to unelected officials only to have an exemption denied. It gets a little harder to blame someone for owning their choices, don't you think? The right to informed consent isn't to be taken for granted.

 

 

It's ok if "you are in a mood".  It is mood worthy!

 

I think my point holds - but sadly not for everyone and everywhere.  

 

I was in a bit of a mood yesterday - I was engaged in a conversation with some nitwit who was refusing to even look into vaccines in any way.  She was going to vaccinate her baby because the doctor said so.  Period.  The lack of personal responsability she was showing was shocking.  

 

I am over people just doing things without any exploration of the issues.  This is doubly the case when they have the ability to engage in informed consent and do not use it.  Honestly, if someone in West Virginia said "I really need my kids to go to school, because I have to work during those hours….so I have to vaccinate.  There is not much point in spending hours on vaccine research as it is not an option" - I would feel bad for them, but I would understand.  Someone in Canada not looking into things, though?  There is no excuse.  

 

I am equally annoyed with non-vaxxers who express shock and outrage that a disease is worse than they thought it would be.  Case in point:  a few months ago there was a story about a New Zealand boy who had tetanus.  His parents were horrified at how awful  tetanus is.  Well - duh!  Tetanus is an awful (although incredibly rare) disease and you should know that when you make your vaccine decisions.  

 

When it comes to vaccine, for many of us, I think ignorance should no longer be a defense.  


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

Book and herb loving mama to 1 preteen and 2 teens (when did that happen?).  We travel, go to school, homeschool, live rurally, eat our veggies, spend too much time...

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Old 05-30-2013, 09:22 AM
 
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I would agree that where there is a right to informed consent, there is a obligation to exercise that right responsibly.

I can see your point. It's right up there with having a right to vote and then not voting. And then having the audacity to bitch about a leader or policy that you don't like.

In God we trust; all others must show data. selectivevax.gifsurf.gifteapot2.GIFintactivist.gif
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Old 06-02-2013, 06:22 AM
 
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http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/sanofi-pasteur-truth-now# pet

 

petition to sanofi-pasteur to make truth known about vaccines

 

 

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I have spent the entire day at the hospital with my husband. He was a bit more upbeat, but also angry, VERY angry."Every time I get back on my feet, I am slammed down again by this devastating vaccine. When will it end? And when will someone take responsibility for what happened to me," he asked and added:"There has to be justice, not just for me but for the next poor bugger, who gets a Sanofi Pasteur jab and suffers like I have." PLEASE SIGN AND SHARE THE PETITION BELOW! Trine B.
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