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Old 05-29-2013, 11:19 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I apologize ahead for not having the time to go through the archives.
I am in an argument with a friend and family over vaccinations. One is an immunology major. Ugh. I am having trouble standing on solid ground.
I need good research based links/studies that address vaccines damaging the immune system and also research that shows that herd immunity is not a good thing.
Also, has anyone heard this and can you dispel it?

"In contrast to the pertussis cases, in the recent US and UK outbreaks of measles, the majority have been unvaccinated. The MMR is a much more effective vaccine."

That is what my friend said.
Thanks for your help.

Mother to one wild and crazy boy 12/29/2002.
Midwife, Homeschool Educator and Crafter.
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Old 05-30-2013, 04:32 AM
 
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If you friend is committed to proving you are wrong,  no link you provide is going to be good enough for her.  And the majority of pertussis cases in the USA were in VAXED populations.  Even the cdc admitted it wasn't the unvaxed causing the epidemic, but a failure of a vaccine. 

http://www.internalmedicinenews.com/news/conference-news/infectious-diseases-society-of-america-conference/single-article/acellular-pertussis-vaccine-s-waning-immunity-caused-california-epidemic/71de9826f4.html

Merck caught frauding the public about mmr vaccines and efficacy...mumps in vaxed populations too

http://www.forbes.com/sites/gerganakoleva/2012/06/27/merck-whistleblower-suit-a-boon-to-anti-vaccination-advocates-though-it-stresses-importance-of-vaccines/

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Old 05-30-2013, 09:05 AM
 
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I think you are focusing on the wrong things.  Do not let them set the tone of what to focus on.

 

If you are discussing herd immunity, I would not do it from a scientific POV - where I think it is a bit of a wash.  It is long and complicated and you need to address each vaccine/disease individually.  I thought this blog post was good:  http://blindedbythelightt.blogspot.ca/2013/04/putting-herd-immunity-debate-to-rest.html

 

 

 

I would go at it from an ethical POV - it is unfair to ask your child to assume a vaccine risk for the good of the state.  Period.  Children should never be put in the position of possible "taking one for the team."  

 

I would avoid discussing vaccines damaging the immune system.  That is kind of fuzzy.

 

I would instead discuss vaccine reactions - and how little we know about.  We do not have a solid grasp of what is or is not a vaccine reaction, and of how often they occur.  


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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Old 05-30-2013, 12:40 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thank you for the perspectives.
I have a 10 yr old and a 6 month old, both unvaxed, so I am confident and solid in my decisions and normally wouldn't even engage those who disagree with my choices because they are my choices. Period.
That being said, the "discussion" started because my friend commented about having to keep her children away from unvaxed kids because they spread disease. When I replied that it simply isn't true another friend chimed in about herd immunity and how we are putting everyone else's kids at risk by not vaccinating.
I was at a loss because it has been so long since I even thought about any of this. I never know what to say about herd immunity questions because I am of thought that my children are individuals and as such, I choose not to allow the CDC, govt to use them in an experiment for the masses.
My friend is all about public health and our duty to keep children healthy. I am all about optimal nutrition and our duty to our own family first. But I think being able to not vaccinate is a privelidge that I have as a middle class American with access to good food and good nutrition.
Does this make sense? I am so bad at putting my foot in my mouth, so usually just move on. She won't let me move on.
Thank you for the links. I will read them and figure out if they will be helpful.

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Old 05-30-2013, 12:54 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicsquirrel View Post

.
My friend is all about public health and our duty to keep children healthy. I am all about optimal nutrition and our duty to our own family first. But I think being able to not vaccinate is a privelidge that I have as a middle class American with access to good food and good nutrition.
 

Well, then, I think she needs to apply that critically across the board.

 

Are her vaccines up to date?

 

Does she smoke, feed her kids crap, etc?  Because if she does her kids are more likely to catch stuff, and thus spread stuff.

 

Is she highly aware of what diseases look like in the vaxxed and unvaxxed?  This is important.  Many people get vaxxed for pertussis, think they are immune, get a sublclinical case of pertussis and wander around with pertussis - giving it to vulnerable populations (infants).

 

Does she keep her kids home when they are sick?  Does she stay home when she is sick?

 

If her house is perfectly in order  (we can erect a statue to her!) , then maybe she can throw stones…but she better not throw them harder at non-vaxxers than she does at smokers, people who eat a SAD, go to work sick,  etc.


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

Book and herb loving mama to 1 preteen and 2 teens (when did that happen?).  We travel, go to school, homeschool, live rurally, eat our veggies, spend too much time...

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Old 05-31-2013, 07:49 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicsquirrel View Post

Thank you for the perspectives.
I have a 10 yr old and a 6 month old, both unvaxed, so I am confident and solid in my decisions and normally wouldn't even engage those who disagree with my choices because they are my choices. Period.
That being said, the "discussion" started because my friend commented about having to keep her children away from unvaxed kids because they spread disease. When I replied that it simply isn't true another friend chimed in about herd immunity and how we are putting everyone else's kids at risk by not vaccinating.
I was at a loss because it has been so long since I even thought about any of this. I never know what to say about herd immunity questions because I am of thought that my children are individuals and as such, I choose not to allow the CDC, govt to use them in an experiment for the masses.
My friend is all about public health and our duty to keep children healthy. I am all about optimal nutrition and our duty to our own family first. But I think being able to not vaccinate is a privelidge that I have as a middle class American with access to good food and good nutrition.
Does this make sense? I am so bad at putting my foot in my mouth, so usually just move on. She won't let me move on.
Thank you for the links. I will read them and figure out if they will be helpful.

Then she is not really a true friend. True friends can agree to disagree. 

 

anyway I found this to be very informative in regards to how vaccines damage infants immune systems. 

 

http://www.beyondconformity.co.nz/BlogRetrieve.aspx?PostID=72820&A=SearchResult&SearchID=5531921&ObjectID=72820&ObjectType=55

 

This is also helpful - explains how vaccines scew the immune system

http://weeksmd.com/2009/10/how-vaccinations-help-and-hurt/


If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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