Bioethicist says parents who don't vaccinate should face liability for consequences - Page 14 - Mothering Forums

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#391 of 412 Old 08-31-2013, 11:11 PM
 
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"Viral Shedding and Live Vaccines

Viral shedding, in which someone becomes contagious and can pass a virus to someone else, is sometimes a concern when parents think about live vaccines.

Fortunately, viral shedding is not usually a problem because:

the MMR vaccine doesn't cause shedding
the chicken pox vaccine can rarely cause shedding if a child develops a vesicular rash after getting vaccinated, but can be avoided by avoiding direct contact with the rash
the rotavirus vaccine only causes shedding in stool, so can be avoided with routine hygiene techniques, such as good hand washing, and if immunocompromised people avoid diaper changes, etc., for at least a week after a child gets a rotavirus vaccine
transmission of the live, nasal spray flu vaccine has not been found in several settings, including people with HIV infection, children getting chemotherapy, and immunocompromised people in health-care settings"


Another concern for parents is whether healthy children should get live vaccines if they will be exposed to someone else who has a problem with their immune system. Fortunately, except for OPV and the smallpox vaccine, which aren't typically used, children who live with someone who has an immunologic deficiency can get most vaccines in the routine childhood immunization schedule, such as MMR, Varivax, and the rotavirus vaccines. "



http://pediatrics.about.com/od/immunizations/a/live-vaccines.htm

1. My niece (who lives with my mom) got the chicken pox vaccine, and within a week or so my mom had shingles. I'm sure many on here will call it a coincidence, but my mom's doc agreed it was most likely from the child getting the chicken pox vaccine.

 

2. As to the bolded, THAT IS HOW ROTAVIRUS IS TRANSMITTED ANYWAY! Why do we need this vaccine if the "shedding can be avoided with routine hygiene techniques such as good hand washing???? banghead.gif (I am aware it is more dangerous in underdeveloped countries, that is not what I am talking about). Truly, tell me how, after reading that, one can justify this vaccine being on the US schedule? 

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#392 of 412 Old 09-01-2013, 09:07 AM
 
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1. My niece (who lives with my mom) got the chicken pox vaccine, and within a week or so my mom had shingles. I'm sure many on here will call it a coincidence, but my mom's doc agreed it was most likely from the child getting the chicken pox vaccine.

 

2. As to the bolded, THAT IS HOW ROTAVIRUS IS TRANSMITTED ANYWAY! Why do we need this vaccine if the "shedding can be avoided with routine hygiene techniques such as good hand washing???? banghead.gif (I am aware it is more dangerous in underdeveloped countries, that is not what I am talking about). Truly, tell me how, after reading that, one can justify this vaccine being on the US schedule? 

 

1.  How would exposure to chickenpox vaccine shedding cause shingles?  You can not catch shingle by being around someone with chickenpox. When you have chickenpox, even after you are better, the virus is never completely gone from your system. It hides latent in nerve cell bodies.  In times of immune weakness such a caused by other illness, medication, or stress it can reactivate and break out along the nerve line and that is shingles. You do not get shingles by being around someone with chickenpox.  Being exposed to chickenpox is actually supposed to act as a natural booster to keep your immune system strong in fighting it, and is why if you look around this site you will find concern that the reduced rate of chickenpox going due to kids being vaccinated will mean less exposure to the disease by adults and that without this natural booster, shingle rates will go up.  Some believe this is already happening, but some studies don't show it.  It is a valid concern, but experts believe that those vaccinated are less likely to have shingles than those with the natural disease, so even if shingles do go up, it will be temporary and then they will drop to lower numbers than before.  The shingles vaccine is actually the same substance as the chickenpox vaccine, just at a much higher dose than is given to kids. 

 

2.  Because while it can be transmitted by shedding, the risk of transmission and infection with vaccine-type disease is much less than with the wild disease, and when it does happen, the vaccine disease is much milder than the wild. 

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#393 of 412 Old 09-02-2013, 06:07 AM
 
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1. My niece (who lives with my mom) got the chicken pox vaccine, and within a week or so my mom had shingles. I'm sure many on here will call it a coincidence, but my mom's doc agreed it was most likely from the child getting the chicken pox vaccine.

 

2. As to the bolded, THAT IS HOW ROTAVIRUS IS TRANSMITTED ANYWAY! Why do we need this vaccine if the "shedding can be avoided with routine hygiene techniques such as good hand washing???? banghead.gif (I am aware it is more dangerous in underdeveloped countries, that is not what I am talking about). Truly, tell me how, after reading that, one can justify this vaccine being on the US schedule? 

 

There is no way in the world that your mom's shingles was caused by your niece's chicken pox vaccination.  That is completely impossible.

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#394 of 412 Old 09-02-2013, 09:33 AM
 
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There is no way in the world that your mom's shingles was caused by your niece's chicken pox vaccination.  That is completely impossible.

not if the mom was on any kind of immuno suppressant drug, like prednisone.  

http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/v/varivax/varivax_pi.pdf

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• Avoid contact with high-risk individuals susceptible to varicella 

because of possible transmission of varicella vaccine virus. (5.4)

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#395 of 412 Old 09-02-2013, 12:02 PM
 
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not if the mom was on any kind of immuno suppressant drug, like prednisone.  

http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/v/varivax/varivax_pi.pdf

 

Still wouldn't cause it.  It could cause primary varicella (chicken pox) but not shingles, which is a reactivation of an existing virus.

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1.  How would exposure to chickenpox vaccine shedding cause shingles?  You can not catch shingle by being around someone with chickenpox. When you have chickenpox, even after you are better, the virus is never completely gone from your system. It hides latent in nerve cell bodies.  In times of immune weakness such a caused by other illness, medication, or stress it can reactivate and break out along the nerve line and that is shingles. You do not get shingles by being around someone with chickenpox.  Being exposed to chickenpox is actually supposed to act as a natural booster to keep your immune system strong in fighting it, and is why if you look around this site you will find concern that the reduced rate of chickenpox going due to kids being vaccinated will mean less exposure to the disease by adults and that without this natural booster, shingle rates will go up.  Some believe this is already happening, but some studies don't show it.  It is a valid concern, but experts believe that those vaccinated are less likely to have shingles than those with the natural disease, so even if shingles do go up, it will be temporary and then they will drop to lower numbers than before.  The shingles vaccine is actually the same substance as the chickenpox vaccine, just at a much higher dose than is given to kids. 

2.  Because while it can be transmitted by shedding, the risk of transmission and infection with vaccine-type disease is much less than with the wild disease, and when it does happen, the vaccine disease is much milder than the wild. 

This is my understanding, as well.

But if disease transmitted by viral shedding is milder than wild, why is the Israeli government freaking out about polio virus found in sewage, when the oral polio vaccine is used there, and that would OF COURSE result in viral shedding in feces?

We're told that in India, viral shedding from OPV is considered a good thing, as it extends the effect of the OPV to the unvaccinated.

Doesn't that seem a bit inconsistent?
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#397 of 412 Old 09-02-2013, 03:13 PM
 
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not if the mom was on any kind of immuno suppressant drug, like prednisone.  
http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/v/varivax/varivax_pi.pdf

Emmy, being on prednisone is known to put adults at risk for shingles. Prednisone "turns off" the immune system. The idea is to stop autoimmune activity long enough to switch off a vicious cycle and give the body a chance to recover and reset, but it can also shut down the body's ability to keep the chickenpox virus dormant. Remember, the chickenpox virus never leaves the body after initial infection; it hides in one of the spinal nerves and goes dormant. Re-exposure to someone with chickenpox reminds the immune system to make enough antibodies to keep that virus dormant. If the immune system is shut down via prednisone, those antibodies will not be made. Physical and emotional stress are the most common triggers.
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#398 of 412 Old 09-02-2013, 04:45 PM
 
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Emmy, being on prednisone is known to put adults at risk for shingles. Prednisone "turns off" the immune system. The idea is to stop autoimmune activity long enough to switch off a vicious cycle and give the body a chance to recover and reset, but it can also shut down the body's ability to keep the chickenpox virus dormant. Remember, the chickenpox virus never leaves the body after initial infection; it hides in one of the spinal nerves and goes dormant. Re-exposure to someone with chickenpox reminds the immune system to make enough antibodies to keep that virus dormant. If the immune system is shut down via prednisone, those antibodies will not be made. Physical and emotional stress are the most common triggers.

yes i know that is what i was trying to convey...i guess my wording came out wrong

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There is no way in the world that your mom's shingles was caused by your niece's chicken pox vaccination.  That is completely impossible.

not if the mom was on any kind of immuno suppressant drug, like prednisone.  

http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/v/varivax/varivax_pi.pdf

Quote:

• Avoid contact with high-risk individuals susceptible to varicella 

because of possible transmission of varicella vaccine virus. (5.4)

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#399 of 412 Old 09-02-2013, 10:38 PM
 
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yes i know that is what i was trying to convey...i guess my wording came out wrong
not if the mom was on any kind of immuno suppressant drug, like prednisone.  
http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/v/varivax/varivax_pi.pdf

I'm not sure your mother's exposure to vaccine virus shedding would have had anything to do with her shingles. Do you have a theory on the mechanism by which that would have affected anything?

Prednisone all by itself could have switched off her immune system's ability to keep her own virus dormant; re-exposure wouldn't be necessary.

Or, if it were, then coming into contact with a child coming down with wild chicken pox would have been far, far worse.
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But if disease transmitted by viral shedding is milder than wild, why is the Israeli government freaking out about polio virus found in sewage, when the oral polio vaccine is used there, and that would OF COURSE result in viral shedding in feces?

We're told that in India, viral shedding from OPV is considered a good thing, as it extends the effect of the OPV to the unvaccinated.

Doesn't that seem a bit inconsistent?

 

The strain found in Israel is wild polio, not vaccine polio. 

 

Also, according to a quick Google search, it appears that they are quickly rushing to get children immunized with oral polio right now since it i more effective especially at preventing transmission of wild virus, but the routine vaccination schedule is for the shot, not oral.  The shot uses killed virus, so does not shed.  

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Is there solid evidence that the strain found in Israel is not circulating vaccine-derived poliovirus?

Also, I am very concerned by this: http://www.who.int/features/qa/64/en/

"Circulating VDPVs in the past have been rapidly stopped with 2–3 rounds of high-quality immunization campaigns. The solution is the same for all polio outbreaks: immunize every child several times with the oral vaccine to stop polio transmission, regardless of the origin of the virus."

We know that use of the oral vaccine was stopped in the US because it CAUSED a small number of paralytic polio cases. That was with one or two doses, not several.
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#402 of 412 Old 09-03-2013, 05:18 AM
 
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I'm not sure your mother's exposure to vaccine virus shedding would have had anything to do with her shingles. Do you have a theory on the mechanism by which that would have affected anything?

Prednisone all by itself could have switched off her immune system's ability to keep her own virus dormant; re-exposure wouldn't be necessary.

Or, if it were, then coming into contact with a child coming down with wild chicken pox would have been far, far worse.

i'm thinking, since the chicken pox vaccine virus can be found in the throats of vaccinees, the person who is taking the immunosuppressing drug, like prednisone, could potentially become infected, should the vaccinee cough or sneeze in the immuno person's face, and then that person ingested those droplets.....if the person who was just sneezed on,  already had chicken pox, wouldn't it present as shingles?  Or, if the person  on the prednisone, came into contact with a child who had wild pox, and that person on pred had chicken pox already, again, wouldn't it present as shingles?

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#403 of 412 Old 09-03-2013, 09:07 AM
 
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Is there solid evidence that the strain found in Israel is not circulating vaccine-derived poliovirus?

Also, I am very concerned by this: http://www.who.int/features/qa/64/en/

"Circulating VDPVs in the past have been rapidly stopped with 2–3 rounds of high-quality immunization campaigns. The solution is the same for all polio outbreaks: immunize every child several times with the oral vaccine to stop polio transmission, regardless of the origin of the virus."

We know that use of the oral vaccine was stopped in the US because it CAUSED a small number of paralytic polio cases. That was with one or two doses, not several.

 

Yes, several articles have said that they've done genetic mapping and matched it to a wild strain that is prevalent in Pakistan.

 

Also according to article, Israel stopped using oral polio in 2005 for the same reason, so young children there have only had IPV with dead virus.  IPV protects against polio paralysis, but it does not provide as much protection against carrying the polio virus as oral polio does.  Kids who have been vaccinated with IPV may still carry polio in their guts and transmit it, which is why oral polio is a better choice in areas where there is a real risk of polio.  It's possible that there could be paralysis from the current oral vaccination campaign, but I would really hope that the IPV which protects from paralysis with wild virus would do so too with the oral vaccine virus and so prevent that from happening.  

 

The real risk of oral polio is when it is used in a population with low vaccination rates allowing it to circulate for a long time and potentially mutate.  

 

 

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i'm thinking, since the chicken pox vaccine virus can be found in the throats of vaccinees, the person who is taking the immunosuppressing drug, like prednisone, could potentially become infected, should the vaccinee cough or sneeze in the immuno person's face, and then that person ingested those droplets.....if the person who was just sneezed on,  already had chicken pox, wouldn't it present as shingles?  Or, if the person  on the prednisone, came into contact with a child who had wild pox, and that person on pred had chicken pox already, again, wouldn't it present as shingles?

 

Shingles is when the virus in your own body erupts along a nerve line from where has been hiding in the nerve end since you had chickenpox.  It involves pain along the nerve and a localized rash in that area.  Chickenpox virus from a sneeze to the face isn't going to find it's way directly to the nerve end to erupt along a nerve like shingles.  What can happen though if your immune system isn't able to fight off the virus sneezed in your face is a second case of chickenpox.  

 

If the illness comes from old virus hiding in a nerve end, that's shingles.  If you get it from someone else, that's going to be chickenpox, whether or not you've had them before.  

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they are very much using oral currently - http://www.jpost.com/Health-and-Science/Nationwide-polio-vaccination-campaign-to-start-August-18-323205

 

 

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Yes, several articles have said that they've done genetic mapping and matched it to a wild strain that is prevalent in Pakistan.

 

Also according to article, Israel stopped using oral polio in 2005 for the same reason, so young children there have only had IPV with dead virus.  IPV protects against polio paralysis, but it does not provide as much protection against carrying the polio virus as oral polio does.  Kids who have been vaccinated with IPV may still carry polio in their guts and transmit it, which is why oral polio is a better choice in areas where there is a real risk of polio.  It's possible that there could be paralysis from the current oral vaccination campaign, but I would really hope that the IPV which protects from paralysis with wild virus would do so too with the oral vaccine virus and so prevent that from happening.  

 

The real risk of oral polio is when it is used in a population with low vaccination rates allowing it to circulate for a long time and potentially mutate.  

 

 

 


 

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Yep, they are now.  Hence my reference to "the current oral vaccination campaign" in the bit you quoted.
 
Thanks for posting that article though, it had a few bits of information I hadn't seen before.  
 
Quote:
 As the Health Ministry’s oral polio vaccine campaign reaches the half-way mark in the South – at 50,000 children born after January 1, 2004, vaccinated – it is gearing up to start a three-month-long effort to vaccinate children in the rest of the country starting on Sunday.

 

I thought they were vaccinating all children, but this makes it appear  that they are focusing on children born around when they started to switching from OPV to IPV and younger, so kids who never would have had OPV before. 

 

Also:

 

Quote:
 The centers will offer the injectable polio vaccinate to children who have not yet had their shot, 

 

This is confusing as it follows mention of a special duty center for really young babies.  I'm not sure if that means the shot is only for those really young babies, or if it means in general they are only/primarily giving oral polio vaccine to those who already had the shot?  Perhaps in hopes of avoiding any cases of vaccine induced paralytic polio?  

 

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I read in the post from the Israel times I put in the other thread about polio in Israel that they're only giving OPV to kids who've already had ipv. This reduced side effect risks considerably, and boosts their polio immunity to reduce the risk of them being a carrier.

Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

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I read in the post from the Israel times I put in the other thread about polio in Israel that they're only giving OPV to kids who've already had ipv. This reduced side effect risks considerably, and boosts their polio immunity to reduce the risk of them being a carrier.

things are not working well and overall they have a major problem - http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/171196#.UicefxYTtz8


 

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1.  How would exposure to chickenpox vaccine shedding cause shingles?  You can not catch shingle by being around someone with chickenpox. When you have chickenpox, even after you are better, the virus is never completely gone from your system. It hides latent in nerve cell bodies.  In times of immune weakness such a caused by other illness, medication, or stress it can reactivate and break out along the nerve line and that is shingles. You do not get shingles by being around someone with chickenpox.  Being exposed to chickenpox is actually supposed to act as a natural booster to keep your immune system strong in fighting it, and is why if you look around this site you will find concern that the reduced rate of chickenpox going due to kids being vaccinated will mean less exposure to the disease by adults and that without this natural booster, shingle rates will go up.  Some believe this is already happening, but some studies don't show it.  It is a valid concern, but experts believe that those vaccinated are less likely to have shingles than those with the natural disease, so even if shingles do go up, it will be temporary and then they will drop to lower numbers than before.  The shingles vaccine is actually the same substance as the chickenpox vaccine, just at a much higher dose than is given to kids. 

 

2.  Because while it can be transmitted by shedding, the risk of transmission and infection with vaccine-type disease is much less than with the wild disease, and when it does happen, the vaccine disease is much milder than the wild. 

1. (I like the 1.2. replies, lol). I did not research this myself. I had mentioned to my sister to avoid getting the MMR/Varicella shots together. She didn't take my advice (which is fine, it's her right); when my mom was diagnosed with shingles, I asked her how she got it (was she stressed?); she reluctantly told me her doc said it was likely due to my niece's vaccine. He is an adult internal medicine doctor. Judging from your and other responses, I take it he was wrong. I certainly wasn't looking for that info, and I normally research stuff like that for myself, but since my family is pretty pro-vaccine and it didn't directly affect me, I just took my mom at her word. I won't let that happen again! :)

2. Perhaps that is true for the person who was vaccinated, but not to the others who are exposed. You really don't see how it's NBD to prevent shedding by hand washing, but OMG, we NEED this vaccine?? It SAVES LIVES. Except....in developed countries it isn't terribly dangerous, and it is clearly easy to prevent transmission based on the pediatrics article I originally quoted. (I'm not sure how to multi-quote).


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#409 of 412 Old 09-08-2013, 10:35 AM
 
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1.  How would exposure to chickenpox vaccine shedding cause shingles?  You can not catch shingle by being around someone with chickenpox. When you have chickenpox, even after you are better, the virus is never completely gone from your system. It hides latent in nerve cell bodies.  In times of immune weakness such a caused by other illness, medication, or stress it can reactivate and break out along the nerve line and that is shingles. You do not get shingles by being around someone with chickenpox.  Being exposed to chickenpox is actually supposed to act as a natural booster to keep your immune system strong in fighting it, and is why if you look around this site you will find concern that the reduced rate of chickenpox going due to kids being vaccinated will mean less exposure to the disease by adults and that without this natural booster, shingle rates will go up.  Some believe this is already happening, but some studies don't show it.  It is a valid concern, but experts believe that those vaccinated are less likely to have shingles than those with the natural disease, so even if shingles do go up, it will be temporary and then they will drop to lower numbers than before.  The shingles vaccine is actually the same substance as the chickenpox vaccine, just at a much higher dose than is given to kids. 

 

2.  Because while it can be transmitted by shedding, the risk of transmission and infection with vaccine-type disease is much less than with the wild disease, and when it does happen, the vaccine disease is much milder than the wild. 

 

That's my understanding too. But I had an experience like the one littlec described--when my sister got chicken pox, my dad came down with shingles, and he was previously completely healthy. So this is weird to me too. 

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#410 of 412 Old 09-08-2013, 04:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by erigeron View Post

That's my understanding too. But I had an experience like the one littlec described--when my sister got chicken pox, my dad came down with shingles, and he was previously completely healthy. So this is weird to me too. 
You're sure he didn't get shingles first? When I got chicken pox as a kid it was from my dad who had shingles. I think it was his first outbreak of several. I had shingles this summer (and during pregnancy too, ugh!), and there was a lag between when the rash first developed and when I realized what it was... Though I guess probably not enough lag to satisfy a cp incubation period. Hmm.

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#411 of 412 Old 09-08-2013, 05:06 PM
 
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I suppose it's possible, but the chicken pox was going around our school at the time. I suppose it could also just be a coincidence. But it's odd. 

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#412 of 412 Old 09-08-2013, 09:51 PM
 
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Yeah, it is odd. But who knows?

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