Bioethicist says parents who don't vaccinate should face liability for consequences - Page 9 - Mothering Forums
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#241 of 412 Old 08-10-2013, 08:49 AM
 
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Originally Posted by bakunin View Post

 Many countries have found out about this the hard way. http://www.fcs.uga.edu/cfd/cdl/docs/vaccines_exemptions.pdf

 

This paper highlights the real issue, not the anti-vax movement causing outbreaks of the disease, but that of social conditions being the main factor. 

 

Take Hungary as shown in the above paper, 

 

Here is what the authors say about pertussis in Hungary:

 

 

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Hungary’s pertussis-control programme has been exemplary. Surveillance, including mandatory reporting, began in 1931. Immunisation with whole-cell pertussis vaccine has continued without interruption country had only one to two cases per 100 000 during 1980-90, whereas the former West Germany had an incidence well over 100 times higher.
 

 

Now look at the graph
 

 

Look at the years that the pertussis rate soared, right around the time of the Hungarian Uprising (1956), despite the uninterrupted vaccination program.

 

Even the CDC admits that the unvaccinated have not cause the rise in pertussis in the US in recent years.

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#242 of 412 Old 08-10-2013, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post

 

This paper highlights the real issue, not the anti-vax movement causing outbreaks of the disease, but that of social conditions being the main factor. 

 

Take Hungary as shown in the above paper, 

 

Here is what the authors say about pertussis in Hungary:

 

 

 

Now look at the graph
 

 

Look at the years that the pertussis rate soared, right around the time of the Hungarian Uprising (1956), despite the uninterrupted vaccination program.

 

Even the CDC admits that the unvaccinated have not cause the rise in pertussis in the US in recent years.


Let me get this straight, the authors reach a conclusion that

"

Our findings provide strong evidence of a causal relation
between movements against whole-cell pertussis vaccine

and pertussis epidemic"

But you provide one of their own plots to implicate their conclusion is wrong? Did you see the rest of the plots in Figure 1, the ones in Figure 2, and Figure 3 and most importantly their statistical evidence (charts are visual and are not considered statistical evidence)? It's pretty clear that all their figures and arguments lead to the conclusion they made

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#243 of 412 Old 08-10-2013, 09:13 AM
 
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Um, movements can't cause a disease. Decreased vaccination rates might leave room for disease. You'd have to prove that there was in fact a decreased rate, & that the 'movement' (how are we defining this?) was responsible for those decreased rate (as opposed to supply chain or funding issues).

Speaking generally, conclusions are often the most flawed, human, & political aspect of a study & they certainly don't always follow from the results & data.
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#244 of 412 Old 08-10-2013, 09:35 AM
 
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I saw the other graphs, but I thought the Hungarian example was very revealing, with such a dramatic rise in pertussis during a period of unrest* with an uninterrupted vaccination program. It was an observation. The paper you linked dates back to 1998 and the CDC has since acknowledged that the recent outbreaks were not fueled by the unvaccinated.

 

*For those that don't know their history, the Hungarian Uprising was from October 23 to November 10, 1956. Hardly time enough time to interrupt the vaccine program.

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#245 of 412 Old 08-10-2013, 12:11 PM
 
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But when it comes to vaccines we can't simply act on speculation.

At least with the U.S. vaccine program, speculation reigns supreme.

 

How many adverse events actually occur when the VAERS webpage itself admits to under-reporting based on passive surveillance and when doctors pretending to be VAERS gatekeepers--and who are also speculating--dismiss reactions as coin-kee-deenks? What's going to happen to pregnant women who get vaccines like TDaP and influenza, which have not been adequately studied on them or their fetuses?  How many clinically diagnosed cases of pertussis were actually a vaccine-targeted strain of pertussis and not parapertussis, a competing strain of pertussis, or just a nasty cough?  How many cases of measles are really occurring, when parents may have mistaken them for an allergic rash? Will the practice of forcibly injecting health care employees for influenza result in better outcomes for anyone setting foot in a hospital? How do we know that we've eradicated polio when the sweeping majority of cases consist of just feeling nasty without any labotory confirmation of what is truly going on?  Sometimes speculation is uncalled for.  Other times we have no other choice.  The problem occurs when we hear speculation cloaked in dogmatic cliches like "safe and effective" and "the science has spoken."  Any time you hear phrases like "research suggests" and "we know from the available research," some degree of speculation is necesarily going on.  And we hear it from every side of the vax discussion.

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Manipulation of results does occur especially if the research is done by the pharma companies. Recently pharmaceuticals have been pressured to release their medicine clinical trial results to the public because of this. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/30/business/breaking-the-seal-on-drug-research.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

But this is not how all research work is funded. A good chunk of the research comes from academics with funds provided by federal grants, universities and other sources. The National Institute of Health is a big funding agency when it comes to vaccine research.

Exactly what size is this "good chunk" of research?  Percentage-wise, what kind of breakdown can you provide for us showing how much vaccine safety and efficacy research is independently funded versus connected to competing interests? Or are you speculating? winky.gif


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#246 of 412 Old 08-10-2013, 12:30 PM
 
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I don't think so -as I don't think genetic markers preclude triggers.

I would love to see the paper when you have a chance, though.

Here's the report on the article. Hopefully you can use it to find the article.
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2013-08-08/scientists-identify-way-to-test-autism-in-one-year-olds/4872506

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#247 of 412 Old 08-10-2013, 12:52 PM
 
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NM
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#248 of 412 Old 08-10-2013, 12:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post


Here's the report on the article. Hopefully you can use it to find the article.
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2013-08-08/scientists-identify-way-to-test-autism-in-one-year-olds/4872506
 

Thanks for this.  If I dig anything up in the next few days, I will share.

 

It is a short but interesting read on its own.

 

 

"Scientists have found the biological patterns that will enable autism to be diagnosed in children as young as 12 months…..

Professor Courchesne says his research measures the genetic network itself rather than a gene.

"A gene is a possibility, it's a blueprint for building or doing something, but it's the actual activity of translating that blueprint into a building that really is more like what we're measuring," he said.

 

When I first started to read the article, I thought "if it is a blood test - why can't they do it at birth instead of at one?"  but I read further and got to the part I italicized.  It does seem to me that they are looking at how the gene expresses itself, rather than the gene itself.  I am not sure genetic markers are always a guarantee of a disease, and what the role of triggers are in such things.   

 

 

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#249 of 412 Old 08-10-2013, 01:18 PM
 
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No one is attacking you or your specific views, PSM. I feel like your posts are reasonable & you are in fact a real mama. Sometimes I also learn from your posts. We are not always in agreement, but I don't suspect you of violating the 'rules of engagement' or the spirit of goodwill @ any point.
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#250 of 412 Old 08-10-2013, 01:23 PM
 
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PSM, I am a real person behind a real screen making a very real request that my arguments not get misrepresented as "conspiracy theories." We have time and again presented evidence of drug company corruption. Making this simple request is not an attack on your views. smile.gif
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#251 of 412 Old 08-10-2013, 01:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

Not everyone reading these posts contributes anything. A typical rule online is that 1% of people create content.

These also appears high up in google searches about vaccination safety.

So I think it is fine to be repetitive and go back to basics. It's hardly only Bakunin doing it either. I know I have heard the same argument about how all science into vaccines is funded and "therefore the conclusions are set" by big pharma. I still don't believe it's possible to get most scientists to collude to harm children in that way.

I saw an interesting news item late yesterday which suggested autism had genetic markers which can be identified in babies before any symptoms are identifiable. Maybe that will finally put the claims of links with vaccines to bed.

I bolded 2 major mistakes you are making.

1) None of us criticizing vaccines on this thread believe that most scientists are colluding to harm children, any more than we believe that most scientists colluded to harm children, any more than we believe that most doctors (pre-Semmelweiss) colluded to harm pregnant women by not washing their hands. We believe that they are working with the best of intentions, but under incorrect assumptions--assumptions that are held to be hard-and-fast truth by most in the scientific community.

And we have stated this over and over and over yet again, but you insist on painting us with that incorrect brush.

2) You are making an incredibly unscientific whopper of a mistake in assuming that genetic markers for autism would in any way rule out vaccines as a cause or trigger for autism. First of all, there may very well be genetic markers that signify a predisposition to vaccine reaction; and we've been telling you that we believe there's a subgroup predisposed to vaccine reactions that result in autism!! Why on earth would you--a scientist, no less--assume that finding one piece of the puzzle would eliminate another, when there is every likelihood that they are related? and why would you assume that genetic markers play an independent causal role, when what role they play has not been identified?

Secondly, if genetic markers are tested for at 1 year, that doesn't in any way rule out vaccines, because by 1 year, children have already had 24 vaccines. If one vaccine can alter genetic expression in an adult, certainly 24 vaccines can alter genetic expression in an infant.
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#252 of 412 Old 08-10-2013, 03:31 PM
 
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And lest we forget the new 'Prenatal Schedule' ensuring we could never get good genetic data: even straight out the womb.
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#253 of 412 Old 08-10-2013, 03:38 PM
 
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And lest we forget the new 'Prenatal Schedule' ensuring we could never get good genetic data: even straight out the womb.

Yeah, I forgot about that one, didn't I? Oops.
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#254 of 412 Old 08-10-2013, 06:36 PM
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Exactly what size is this "good chunk" of research?  Percentage-wise, what kind of breakdown can you provide for us showing how much vaccine safety and efficacy research is independently funded versus connected to competing interests? Or are you speculating? winky.gif


I'll let you do a quick google search and find out about the distribution of funds for basic and applied research (oh yeah, it's a good chunk alright)

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#255 of 412 Old 08-10-2013, 06:37 PM
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Here's the report on the article. Hopefully you can use it to find the article.
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2013-08-08/scientists-identify-way-to-test-autism-in-one-year-olds/4872506

I'm so sick of being attacked for sticking up for my views on here (I don't mean you km). Can we all try to remember its real people on the other side of the computer. smile.gif


Thanks for the link prosciencemum. I couldn't find it this morning

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#256 of 412 Old 08-10-2013, 08:06 PM
 
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Industry and Academia are BFFs, increasingly. So no one can say anymore that JUST because research takes place in a University that it is truly independent or free of COI. Just to use agriculture as an example, M*ns*nto indirectly & directly funds research @ major Ag/Land Grant Universities. As does Nestlé, etc.
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#257 of 412 Old 08-10-2013, 09:35 PM
 
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Ummmmm no, Bakunin. I'll let YOU do the search and post your links here for scrutiny. You made the claim, so you shoulder the burden of proof. Debate 101. smile.gif

Remember, I'm not looking for a breakdown of research from drug companies v. research from academia. Since academic research is often funded and even ghost-written by the private sector, I need to know how much of the research is independent v. how much stems from competing interests. Statistically speaking, I look forward to learning your numeric definition of "good chunk."
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#258 of 412 Old 08-11-2013, 05:35 AM
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Ummmmm no, Bakunin. I'll let YOU do the search and post your links here for scrutiny. You made the claim, so you shoulder the burden of proof. Debate 101. smile.gif

Remember, I'm not looking for a breakdown of research from drug companies v. research from academia. Since academic research is often funded and even ghost-written by the private sector, I need to know how much of the research is independent v. how much stems from competing interests. Statistically speaking, I look forward to learning your numeric definition of "good chunk."


It's quite simple really. Most research universities receive the majority of their funding from federal grants. Percentages differ, but typically roam from 60-80% of funding (being federal). For example for Harvard it's 60% for MIT it's 70% http://tech.mit.edu/V133/N24/zuber.html and so on and so forth

I'll be happy to help you find these things out using google if you wish :)

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#259 of 412 Old 08-11-2013, 07:28 AM
 
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The majority of their funding for . . ,

You have to say what the funding is for for these to be understood by us as valid percentages.

Funding for specific research does not preclude individual professors & researchers from having industry ties.

Harvard runs, generally speaking, off the interest generated by a giant endowment.

Here's some historical info from a media source on the Pharma/Harvard Medical School controversy:
http://www.bostonmagazine.com/2009/10/bitter-pills/
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#260 of 412 Old 08-11-2013, 07:34 AM
 
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It's quite simple really. Most research universities receive the majority of their funding from federal grants. Percentages differ, but typically roam from 60-80% of funding (being federal). For example for Harvard it's 60% for MIT it's 70% http://tech.mit.edu/V133/N24/zuber.html and so on and so forth

I'll be happy to help you find these things out using google if you wish :)

 

I'll try this once more before resigning myself to not getting an answer. Of all of the research on vaccine safety and vaccine effectiveness, what percentage of it is tied to competing interests, and what percentage is independent?
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#261 of 412 Old 08-11-2013, 09:25 AM
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Several posts to this discussion are not acceptable and I am issuing warnings and infractions and may be restricting participation for some members if it continues. Please post about the topic and not the individual. 


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#262 of 412 Old 08-11-2013, 12:53 PM
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Saw this article today on Reddit.  

 

He says "If your kid gets the measles, and remember public health officials are getting very very good at tracing outbreaks to their source, and makes my kid sick (can happen since vaccine is not 100 percent effective), my newborn baby die (newborns can’t benefit from vaccines) or my wife miscarry (fetuses are at especially high risk), then shouldn’t I be able to sue you for the harm you have done?"

 

http://www.pri.org/stories/health/bioethicist-says-parents-who-don-t-vaccinate-should-face-liability-for-consequences-13929.html

 

What does everyone think about this? 


Here's an article from last year with more information on where Caplan's argument comes from http://www.nbcnews.com/health/bioethicist-us-children-suffer-vaccine-exemptions-917155

Note how 9 infants died from pertussis last year and 2012 disease cases up until July 31 or so were more than double the number of cases from 2011 for the same time period

 

Admitedly however, the occurrence of the 2012 cannot be automatically blamed on exemptions. CDC personnel stated they did not think the exemptions caused the 2012 outbreaks throughout the U.S http://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2012/t0719_pertussis_epidemic.html

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#263 of 412 Old 08-11-2013, 03:25 PM
 
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My husband, 32 years old and healthy as an ox, received the DTAP (or whatever the whooping cough one is called) Vaccine and immediately spiked a fever that had him experiencing vertigo and vomiting as well as not being able to barely get out of bed for 4 days. My Chemistry teacher, friend, 38 years old, experienced the same thing in the same year. Would I give this to an infant? Hell No. I am not a sadist. 

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#264 of 412 Old 08-12-2013, 12:49 AM
 
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Different people react differently. Many infant gets the vaccine which your husband suffered reactions from with no problem. Both of my kids did, and their experience is the norm thankfully.

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#265 of 412 Old 08-24-2013, 06:43 AM
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It appears measures are being taken already in some parts of the world. Here's a recent small but important measure taken in Australia

http://www.care2.com/causes/australia-cracks-down-on-parents-against-vaccinations.html

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#266 of 412 Old 08-24-2013, 06:52 AM
 
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It appears measures are being taken already in some parts of the world. Here's a recent small but important measure taken in Australia
http://www.care2.com/causes/australia-cracks-down-on-parents-against-vaccinations.html

That article is very one-sided and not a great piece of journalism. So, it's good for people's right to be taken away? And it's good that this will mainly hurt the poor?

I'm sorry, how is this good? I think a lot of people who vaccinate would not agree with this tactic. People should have a right to refused medical care.
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#267 of 412 Old 08-24-2013, 07:27 AM
 
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Different people react differently. Many infant gets the vaccine which your husband suffered reactions from with no problem. Both of my kids did, and their experience is the norm thankfully.

and many many infants get the vaccine, have bad reactions which are then dismissed by the dr...so how are we to know  how many true cases of vaccine reaction there really are if they constantly get dismissed as 'normal'?

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#268 of 412 Old 08-24-2013, 07:30 AM
 
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That article is very one-sided and not a great piece of journalism. So, it's good for people's right to be taken away? And it's good that this will mainly hurt the poor?

I'm sorry, how is this good? I think a lot of people who vaccinate would not agree with this tactic. People should have a right to refused medical care.

its about controlling the masses, esp the poor.  An independently wealthy person does not have to worry about money or tax credits, and can refuse any medical treatment they want to.   Did australia collude with the USA to propagate this type of sub-humanism?   Is this type of scenario likely to come to the USA?

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#269 of 412 Old 08-24-2013, 07:37 AM
 
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Here's a recent small but important measure taken in Australia

It is important to coerce parents into vaccinating by taking away child credits (paid for by the parents own tax dollars I presume)???

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#270 of 412 Old 08-24-2013, 07:41 AM
 
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Is this type of scenario likely to come to the USA?

I don't know how likely it is, but I suspect it is possible, especially when we already have a medical culture which tells parents, contrary to what the law actually states, that their kids have to be vaxxed in order to go to school, as well as some families on Medicaid being told that they must vaxx in order to receive services.


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