Reasons for not vaccinating children? - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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Old 06-17-2013, 05:55 PM
 
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To add some personal experience to the discussion of economics/class influencing vaccination decisions . . . sorry it's long!

Our 1st child came to us through guardianship and then adoption.  She had county/state/fed aid for childcare and health insurance since she was considered a "family of one" with no income.  It was very interesting to witness how dd1 and I were treated when I took her to wellness visits.  I can say that is was very different from my 2nd dd.  When I took my 1st dd in for wellness check-ups they seemed quite taken by surprise when I questioned things.  

For example:  why were they ordering tests to see if lead was in her bloodstream?  "It's just routine screening m'am."  They do that for every child who is poor . . . it's assumed that if you are poor you are likely to have lead exposure.  It doesn't matter that 75% of the houses around here were built after the routine use of lead in house paint.  There were no questions about her history - where had she lived, in older homes?  Her bio mom was young but not living in a ghetto. 

I was not even asked about vaccine schedules.  We had a kindergarten physical while I was researching chicken pox (the vaccine was required for starting school).  I had wanted to do more research and had not scheduled any shots for that visit.  Nonetheless, in came an MA with a syringe filled with the chicken pox vaccine - assuming I would have that shot done during the visit.  When I asked what that was and then said I was still undecided about that vaccine there was an attempt to "just get it done" since I was there and the syringe was drawn.  I had to stay firm (always polite) and she finally backed off.  But, wow, that never has happened to me since dd1 got out of the county health program. 

The paperwork moved so fast that I had to be very quick at reading and making decisions on the fly.  If I didn't already have my very stubborn streak of not doing anything that could have potential to do harm without research and at least sleeping on the decision;  and if I didn't have a decent knowledge of anatomy and physiology I would have been rolled along just like so many other parents in those waiting rooms.  If I had any trouble with reading quickly and having good reading comprehension . . . whoa.  English as a 2nd language?  Double whoa.  

I grew up very poor but have since moved into the middle class.  I can see how economics does influence a sense of empowerment and offer a person the chance to feel like they can make their own decisions, not swallow a CDC schedule hook-line-and-sinker.  My children's doctor has a very different approach with me and my daughters than those docs I interacted with the first couple years of caring for dd1 through guardianship.  It's not just the doctor, but the whole office staff and whole experience of doing healthcare through Kaiser rather than doing healthcare through impacted community clinics.

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Old 06-17-2013, 05:58 PM
 
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No, I am not making fun and i also gave an example of someone we all know (Steve Jobs) to prove my point. I am a big supporter of natural or alternative medicine, but i'm also aware it has limitations, as does mainstream medicine. A combination of both is typically the best, especially if the body is having a difficult time healing. I was pointing out that her thinking is flawed because there are numerous real-life examples that show that way of thinking is dangerous. If we're all just supposed to respect each other's beliefs then how will we learn anything new?

you quoted another poster (and the poster was not Steve Jobs)

 

 

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My following the path that I believe my Creator has made for me is a very real reality to me-- has been my entire life.  Who are you to say it isn't reality for me?  Man does of his own free will.  Many people believe what they believe to cure illness, whether it's bowing down to the white coat and pharma, or hugging Mother Earth while saying a prayer/chant, and/or just true belief the body can heal itself without pharma intervention or prevention.    

You have every right to believe whatever you want to believe, but that doesnt make whatever it is true. Some things cannt be proven, like who or what God is or if God even exists, so there is no harm in believing what you like when it comes to that. However, some things are evident in reality, so to believe otherwise is to go against reality. In the case of believing God gave you a capable immune system that will heal any illness you happen to have, this is not taking into account the many people who didnt have "pharma intervention or prevention" who have died (surely you are aware of this). While the illness was in their body, their immune system was fighting very hard to rid their bodies of the foreign properties, but sometimes the immune system gets too tired or overrun with the illness. This is certainly not God's fault nor does it show a lack of belief in God and what He/She/It does, it is simply the reality of our biological makeup. To believe otherwise is to ignore the reality that maybe sometimes the body needs extra assistance and homepathics and herbs or whatever other natural treatment isnt going to suffice. Take a look at Steve Jobs--instead of receiving chemotherapy for his cancer he chose to use alternative medicine. His immune system needed extra support, the kind of support he probably would have gotten with chemotherapy. Thus, he died. Maybe he shouldnt have been so quick to judge mainstream medicine.


 

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Old 06-17-2013, 06:03 PM
 
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You said chemotherapy was an "immune support" and it is quite the opposite, it is an "immune devastator".


I am not going to get into this any further with you because it just isn't worth it. 

So you're saying because it doesnt outright boost the immune system that all it does is harm? Yes, it kills all cells but it does so in order to rid the body of cancer. That is what i meant when i said it helps build the immune system. How the heck is the immune system going to get anywhere if it has to constantly fight against spreading cancer? The body can regenerate but it has a much harder time doing that if it has to battle against something that is constantly trying to take over and kill it. It seems logical that if the probability is high using chemo can help prolong or save a life.
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Old 06-17-2013, 06:09 PM
 
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you quoted another poster (and the poster was not Steve Jobs)

Umm, yeah i know the poster isnt Steve Jobs (he's dead ya know). Are you trying to say that learning from other people's mistakes isnt useful? That we should all start from scratch when we form our beliefs?
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Old 06-17-2013, 06:23 PM
 
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I don't appreciate being called narrow-minded which I believe is a personal attack and therefore against the UA. But yes, all chemotherapy does is harm because that is what it is designed to do.

 

Anyway, I will repeat what I typed above, I am not going to get into this with because your understanding of health and healing bears no resemblance to mine, and therefore cannot be part of your reality.


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Old 06-17-2013, 06:28 PM
 
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All right debaters, I've received a couple complaints now about this turning in to a religious debate. People are becoming offended, and quite frankly - it's just not good for debate as a whole.

 

I really don't wish to shut down communication even when things become heated. I believe we are all adults and we should let the conversation flow as freely as possible.

If you can't take the heat... af.gif

 

With that in mind -

The OP asked for reasons for not vaccinating.

Religious belief is absolutely 100% a reason, as is - no questioning.

As interesting as it may be for those to question others on that belief - I see that people are getting offended, posts are getting flagged, and we need to drop the conversation on that matter.

 

Any post after this one that refers to the religious debating will asked to be edited and held for moderation until editing has taken place.


Please be respectful of each other as always, and try to wear thick skin while in here.

 

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Old 06-17-2013, 06:36 PM
 
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Absolutely I do.  They have the time and resources to research vaccines.  They have been raised (painting with broad strokes here) to be willing to politely question authority, and they do not assume anyone is above them - particulalry when it comes to their children.

OTOH, most poor people I have known through the ages are not typcially willing to buck the system.  They are often not even aware they can buck it.  I am very much in agreement with Dalia here.  

I think the goal should be to raise everyone to the level of empowerment some parents feel (those who understand there is choice in the world) not say it is a bad thing, which seems to be what you are saying?????

Yeah, they dont assume anyone is above them, which could be either good or bad depending on the topic. I dont feel its good to assume that as long as we do our own careful research this means we are free to make our own decisions. I see that as self-inflated and not taking into account the fact that there ARE experts who have been studying and working with vaccines for many years. To assume that we will know just as much if not more than these people simply by doing some research is self-inflated.

Also, feeling empowered is one thing, but to think that you can become an expert simply because you know how to do basic research is potentially harmful. This was part of my original point--that white upper class people often have the mentality of being apart from the general population precisely because they often dont see anyone as being above them. We all have superiors and i consider those whose job is to assess the safety and effectiveness of vaccines to be the people i respect. That doesnt mean i dont do any research, but i value their opinion the highest.

Also, i agree that its unfortunate that poor people dont know that they can research options for their children or where to look. There's also alot of pressure to conform, like the example a PP gave about her adopted child. Its sad a lot of doctors and nurses dont encourage parents to look into vaccines and often just administer them without explaining anything about them. That is a real problem.
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Old 06-17-2013, 06:59 PM
 
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No, I am not making fun and i also gave an example of someone we all know (Steve Jobs) to prove my point. I am a big supporter of natural or alternative medicine, but i'm also aware it has limitations, as does mainstream medicine. A combination of both is typically the best, especially if the body is having a difficult time healing. I was pointing out that her thinking is flawed because there are numerous real-life examples that show that way of thinking is dangerous. If we're all just supposed to respect each other's beliefs then how will we learn anything new?

Of course alternative medicine has its limitations.  If I am ever in a car accident, please call 911 or drive me to the hospital.   Surgeons saved my youngest life  - no joke, she was born with a birth defect that is incompatible with life.

 

OTOH, I think mainstream medicine has done a lousy job with some things - supporting natural low risk childbirth is one.  Certain chronic conditions are another.  

 

The question for this forum is whether or not mainstream medicine has it right in terms of vaccination.  I do not think they do. I think they paint with far too broad strokes and are negligent in their duty to ensure proper safety testing.  


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Old 06-17-2013, 07:05 PM
 
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I dont feel its good to assume that as long as we do our own careful research this means we are free to make our own decisions.

 

Are you saying that you don't believe that vaccination is a decision we should be freely able to make on our own? I hope you are not talking government coercion here.

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Old 06-17-2013, 07:11 PM
 
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I've sent Personal Messages out to those asking for edits on flagged posts.

I have not asked prior posts dealing with religious debate to be edited.

 

 

If you (general you) on your own would like to review your previous posts and edit religious debate out for the sake of new people reading - please feel free to do so. It would totally be appreciated.

 

Please remember that I'm a member at Mothering just like you, and I'm just trying to help keep peace while letting conversations flow.

If an issue comes up that you can handle diplomatically - choose that route first.

Keep in mind that UA breaking aside - The debate board is a much more lively place to hang out when you're not preaching at the choir.

So, have fun!

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Old 06-17-2013, 07:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by PrimordialMind View Post

….I dont feel its good to assume that as long as we do our own careful research this means we are free to make our own decisions. I see that as self-inflated and not taking into account the fact that there ARE experts who have been studying and working with vaccines for many years. To assume that we will know just as much if not more than these people simply by doing some research is self-inflated.

 

I completely disagree with the bolded.

 

I always (or almost always) listen to experts.  I do not always take their advice.  I sincerely hope this does not become a "you should always follow the doctors advice" type thread.  It goes against the idea of informed choice and consent.  I believe informed choice, consent and being pro-active about your health is more likely to lead to health than compliance, but to each their own.  


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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Old 06-17-2013, 08:22 PM
 
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When we do research, we are researching expert opinions from both sides. What else would we be looking at? A crystal ball? :-P

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Old 06-17-2013, 09:25 PM
 
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I dont feel its good to assume that as long as we do our own careful research this means we are free to make our own decisions. 

 

By that, it sounds like you disagree with informed consent. Many people do disagree with it, including doctors. But most won't admit it so freely.

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Old 06-17-2013, 10:57 PM
 
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Anyway, I will repeat what I typed above, I am not going to get into this with because your understanding of health and healing bears no resemblance to mine, and therefore cannot be part of your reality.

I'm sensing some hostility and i'm not sure why. Do you not appreciate being challenged or do you think i'm too closed-minded to anything you have to say? I assure you i am very open-minded, especially when someone gives me a clear, solid argument.

You have forced me to edit my last post because i said you seem narrow-minded. I dont really mind doing that but why is that the only thing you've gotten from what i said? All you are willing to do is complain and then just say "you're wrong" and "thats not your reality"? Everything that is real can be properly communicated so someone else understands. If you cant or are unwilling to do that then why are you engaging with me? Just for fun?

Seriously, you have not given more than a surface reason as to why chemo only does harm and no good. If its so harmful then why are so many people helped by it?
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Old 06-17-2013, 11:02 PM
 
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When we do research, we are researching expert opinions from both sides. What else would we be looking at? A crystal ball? :-P

Haha, very funny. The concept of "expert" is a subjective term, unfortunately. For example, some people would consider Dr. Sears to be an expert on vaccines. I personally don't. There are other examples as well that are questionable "expert" sources. If you dont have the proper understanding of who to trust, its very easy to be led in a direction that suits you.
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Old 06-17-2013, 11:12 PM
 
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I completely disagree with the bolded.

I always (or almost always) listen to experts.  I do not always take their advice.  I sincerely hope this does not become a "you should always follow the doctors advice" type thread.  It goes against the idea of informed choice and consent.  I believe informed choice, consent and being pro-active about your health is more likely to lead to health than compliance, but to each their own.  

Its easy to nitpick at my words, take them out of context and then argue a point that didnt actually need to be argued. I also said its good to do research. I know thats probably a head-scratcher so i'll explain a little better. Doing your own research is only beneficial if we dont neglect the fact that we are not an expert on the topic. We can pour over articles, books and other literature but there needs to be respect for the opinions of experts. A lot of the literature is not actual opinions but statistics, anecdotal stories, studies, things of that nature. We can come up with our own conclusions, but its also good to have respect for the opinions of experts. This is just my opinion, one of many, so why everyone is so interested in mine i dont know. I'd like to hear other people's opinions too.
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Old 06-18-2013, 05:55 AM
 
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All right debaters, I've received a couple complaints now about this turning in to a religious debate. People are becoming offended, and quite frankly - it's just not good for debate as a whole.

 

I really don't wish to shut down communication even when things become heated. I believe we are all adults and we should let the conversation flow as freely as possible.

If you can't take the heat... af.gif

 

With that in mind -

The OP asked for reasons for not vaccinating.

Religious belief is absolutely 100% a reason, as is - no questioning.

As interesting as it may be for those to question others on that belief - I see that people are getting offended, posts are getting flagged, and we need to drop the conversation on that matter.

 

Any post after this one that refers to the religious debating will asked to be edited and held for moderation until editing has taken place.


Please be respectful of each other as always, and try to wear thick skin while in here.

 

Take care every one.

thank you!!!!!


 

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Old 06-18-2013, 06:55 AM
 
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Its easy to nitpick at my words, take them out of context and then argue a point that didnt actually need to be argued. I also said its good to do research. I know thats probably a head-scratcher so i'll explain a little better. Doing your own research is only beneficial if we dont neglect the fact that we are not an expert on the topic. We can pour over articles, books and other literature but there needs to be respect for the opinions of experts. A lot of the literature is not actual opinions but statistics, anecdotal stories, studies, things of that nature. We can come up with our own conclusions, but its also good to have respect for the opinions of experts. This is just my opinion, one of many, so why everyone is so interested in mine i dont know. I'd like to hear other people's opinions too.

I did not take your words out of context or nitpick.

 

If you mean listen to experts - then fine.  I have no issue with listening to experts, although I do not think listening to experts should be mandated.  I have been somewhat disappointed in my conversation with hcp on vaccines, but that is neither here nor there.  

 

If by listen you really mean comply with what they say - then we part ways.  I do not typically comply with what experts say on health care matters because they are experts (emergencies aside).  I research things and make my decisions as I am the one who will have to live with the consequences.  I do not pass this responsibility on to someone else.  

 

In any event, I am done on the subject of compliance.  If you are not, here is a (long and passionate!) thread on the topic:

http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1368637/why-do-people-follow-medical-authorities

 

As per the bolded, people are talking to you for two reasons.

 

1.  You offended some people

2.  You are one of two vaxxers or vax defenders on this thread - and the other seems to have bailed.  It is a debate thread, so some of this is natural, but that does not make it  an easy spot to be in.


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Old 06-18-2013, 07:46 AM
 
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Seriously, you have not given more than a surface reason as to why chemo only does harm and no good. If its so harmful then why are so many people helped by it?

 

Chemotherapy is off topic for this board, and as I said, I have no interest in having a discussion on the subject with you. However, has chemomtherapy really helped people? I am not about to write you a thesis on the cancer industry, many have done a much better job than ever could. If you are sincere in your interest, there is plenty of information out there available to those that question. I will give you this, but that is pretty much all, I have direct experience in my life of a loved one healing completly from cancer without the aid of chemo, radiation or surgery; and a friend who was treated for the same type of cancer, with all three of standard medical treatments, dying.

 

 

A quote for you:

 


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Old 06-18-2013, 08:02 AM
 
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No, I am not making fun and i also gave an example of someone we all know (Steve Jobs) to prove my point. I am a big supporter of natural or alternative medicine, but i'm also aware it has limitations, as does mainstream medicine. A combination of both is typically the best, especially if the body is having a difficult time healing. I was pointing out that her thinking is flawed because there are numerous real-life examples that show that way of thinking is dangerous. If we're all just supposed to respect each other's beliefs then how will we learn anything new?

seriously?  Do you really believe that you cannot learn anything new while respecting other's beliefs?? 

Here is a newsflash - you CAN be respectful of others beliefs and still be open minded and learn new things. In fact I think it's when the respect breaks down that one ceases to be able to learn. 


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Old 06-18-2013, 04:44 PM
 
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This has been a very interesting thread to read through.  I am a partial vaccinator - i.e. I will not vaccinate for HPV or chicken pox, nor do I agree with the flu vaccine.  The OP wanted to know why people choose not to vaccinate, and I think it should be clear from all the discussion that there are a myriad of reasons:  religion, familial history, adverse reactions, research into various different vaccines, reading of peer reviewed medical publications regarding vaccination, and finally personal choice.  I have no religious views on this, and I'm not located in the US.  I live in a jurisdiction where mercury is no longer used in the childhood vaccines I will be getting for my children, though aluminum is still present in some.  I will spread out my children's vaccinations more than the regular schedule.  I will consider a chicken pox vaccine if my child hasn't had chicken pox by the time she's 13.  I am comfortable that I've done my research.  I agree with PPs that say that there is good reason not to simply follow what a doctor or nurse demands your child receive, and I thought the PP who had the adopted daughter expressed very eloquently the roadblocks to informed choice for people who may not speak English well, or who can't read quickly, or who feel uncomfortable making immediate decisions regarding this issue that many parents consider very important.
 

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Old 06-18-2013, 05:02 PM
 
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Chemotherapy is off topic for this board, and as I said, I have no interest in having a discussion on the subject with you. However, has chemomtherapy really helpedpeople? I am not about to write you a thesis on the cancer industry, many have done a much better job than ever could. If you are sincere in your interest, there is plenty of information out there available to those that question. I will give you this, but that is pretty much all, I have direct experience in my life of a loved one healing completly from cancer without the aid of chemo, radiation or surgery; and a friend who was treated for the same type of cancer, with all three of standard medical treatments, dying.


A quote for you:



Ahh, I see. Its very easy to give anecdotal stories or say "this is off-topic so i'm not discussing it" when you could have just as easily discussed it. It was a tangent from a conversation with a PP on this thread so even though its not directly on-topic, it also isnt coming totally from left field, either. You, yourself, have been engaging with me on the topic but I guess you werent taking it seriously. You could just say that you like the idea of not having to use chemo or other invasive methods to treat cancer, but you're not well-versed on the science behind those alternative methods. That is a perfectly reasonable response. Also, you are wrong when it comes to chemo killing all cells--it only kills fast-growing ones. So, sometimes it kills healthy cells but its really targeting cancer cells. You made it sound like the treatment is designed to kill off the entire body, which is extreme. Again, many people have been through chemo, they lived through it and the body recharged itself and they lived many more years. You seem to be saying that chemo does permanent damage but i doubt you have a viable argument for that. What I've seen is that the body does what its designed to do--recharge itself. Hair grows back, red blood cells regenarate as do white blood cells and platelets. Sometimes after chemo the cancer comes back, but i highly doubt that is the fault of chemo. It seems to me that the cancer was lying dormant and they thought the chemo had removed it all. Lastly, the quote you gave is unnecessary--I am open-minded, i simply dont attach to people's ideas or beliefs without reason. If they cant give a reasonable argument then i know nothing new.
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Old 06-18-2013, 05:14 PM
 
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seriously?  Do you really believe that you cannot learn anything new while respecting other's beliefs?? 
Here is a newsflash - you CAN be respectful of others beliefs and still be open minded and learn new things. In fact I think it's when the respect breaks down that one ceases to be able to learn. 

Here is another newsflash--some beliefs are simply false and no amount of sugar-coating is going to change that. I will not lie to someone who has a false belief that i somehow agree with that belief in order to have an even playing field. Some beliefs cannot be proven right nor wrong, but some can. And when that belief that can be proven false is potentially very dangerous i will not bite my tongue. I despise the notion that all beliefs should be treated as sacred and, thus, we should be respectful and let them be. A lot of people are parrots or copycats, so is the belief really sacred to them? Also, a lot of people attach to beliefs that are not rooted in biology or physics, so they are essentially hoping and praying that their belief is real. I do not respect these types of beliefs. I respect that everyone has the free will to make their own beliefs, but i dont respect each and every belief. Maybe they will learn something new and maybe they wont but i wont idly stand by and watch people believe in potentially dangerous concepts. I am not here to make things comfy, so if others dont like it they dont have to listen. I'd like to think i plant seeds, though, in some minds.
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Old 06-18-2013, 05:24 PM
 
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I did not take your words out of context or nitpick.

If you mean listen to experts - then fine.  I have no issue with listening to experts, although I do not think listening to experts should be mandated.  I have been somewhat disappointed in my conversation with hcp on vaccines, but that is neither here nor there.  

If by listen you really mean comply with what they say - then we part ways.  I do not typically comply with what experts say on health care matters because they are experts (emergencies aside).  I research things and make my decisions as I am the one who will have to live with the consequences.  I do not pass this responsibility on to someone else.  

In any event, I am done on the subject of compliance.  If you are not, here is a (long and passionate!) thread on the topic:
http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1368637/why-do-people-follow-medical-authorities

As per the bolded, people are talking to you for two reasons.

1.  You offended some people
2.  You are one of two vaxxers or vax defenders on this thread - and the other seems to have bailed.  It is a debate thread, so some of this is natural, but that does not make it  an easy spot to be in.

No, I dont mean comply. What i mean is something along the lines of active listening: allowing yourself to fully receive what they are saying, taking what makes sense, leaving what doesnt and/or doing research to determine what does and doesnt fit for you and your family. I've noticed that a lot of people only want to listen to experts they respect and either completely reject the ones they dont respect or only practice passive listening (taking it in but not really receiving it). So, to clarify, this is what i mean about listening to experts. I am definitely not a complier--although i vax i have not taken the decision lightly and i also dont believe doctors and other health care professionals should be treated as the utmost authorities on all health care issues. Case in point, I have had two UCs after careful deliberation over what is safest, heathiest, and will most likely create the best outcome for my babies and myself.
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Old 06-18-2013, 05:31 PM
 
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Ahh, I see. Its very easy to give anecdotal stories or say "this is off-topic so i'm not discussing it" when you could have just as easily discussed it. It was a tangent from a conversation with a PP on this thread so even though its not directly on-topic, it also isnt coming totally from left field, either. You, yourself, have been engaging with me on the topic but I guess you werent taking it seriously. You could just say that you like the idea of not having to use chemo or other invasive methods to treat cancer, but you're not well-versed on the science behind those alternative methods. That is a perfectly reasonable response. Also, you are wrong when it comes to chemo killing all cells--it only kills fast-growing ones. So, sometimes it kills healthy cells but its really targeting cancer cells. You made it sound like the treatment is designed to kill off the entire body, which is extreme. Again, many people have been through chemo, they lived through it and the body recharged itself and they lived many more years. You seem to be saying that chemo does permanent damage but i doubt you have a viable argument for that. What I've seen is that the body does what its designed to do--recharge itself. Hair grows back, red blood cells regenarate as do white blood cells and platelets. Sometimes after chemo the cancer comes back, but i highly doubt that is the fault of chemo. It seems to me that the cancer was lying dormant and they thought the chemo had removed it all. Lastly, the quote you gave is unnecessary--I am open-minded, i simply dont attach to people's ideas or beliefs without reason. If they cant give a reasonable argument then i know nothing new.

 

I am not discussing this with because it is pointless. You have a fixed opinion and nothing will budge it. You THINK you are right and nothing I type will convince you otherwise, as you wrote below:

 

 

Quote:
Here is another newsflash--some beliefs are simply false and no amount of sugar-coating is going to change that. 

 

You clearly are not open-minded on this subject and are just out for an argument. 

 

PS: paragraphs are your friend. A whole bunch of text is very off putting to read.


t
 
"There are only two mistakes you can make in the search for the Truth. Not starting, and not going all the way." ~ Mark Passio
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Old 06-18-2013, 05:36 PM
 
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I am not discussing this with because it is pointless. You have a fixed opinion and nothing will budge it. You THINK you are right and nothing I type will convince you otherwise, as you wrote below:



You clearly are not open-minded and are just out for an argument. 

PS: paragraphs are your friend. A whole bunch of text is very off putting to read.

No, i dont have a fixed opinion. My statement about how some beliefs are false was not directed at you. You have had ample opportunity to make a clear, concise argument and you would rather harass me. I am sorry you are having a hard time reading my text. Maybe if you spent more time actually discussing the subject matter rather than seeking to making me look like an enemy this wouldnt be an issue. Also, if you have nothing of substance to share then please stop bothering me, you are wasting my time, thanks.
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Old 06-18-2013, 05:49 PM
 
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No, i dont have a fixed opinion. My statement about how some beliefs are false was not directed at you. You have had ample opportunity to make a clear, concise argument and you would rather harass me. I am sorry you are having a hard time reading my text. Maybe if you spent more time actually discussing the subject matter rather than seeking to making me look like an enemy this wouldnt be an issue. Also, if you have nothing of substance to share then please stop bothering me, you are wasting my time, thanks.

I think what is hard for everyone is your tone. It's really condescending at times. No one here is stupid or else they wouldn't even be in the discussion. No one is having a hard time reading or understanding what you're saying. It's just the way you are saying it makes things tough. If you really want to plant a seed then I think it would be best to make the person you want to help feel respected, not belittled. The minute someone feels they are being mocked the conversation is over. And then it's not really about the conversation, it's just about "being right".

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Old 06-18-2013, 06:09 PM
 
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I think what is hard for everyone is your tone. It's really condescending at times. No one here is stupid or else they wouldn't even be in the discussion. No one is having a hard time reading or understanding what you're saying. It's just the way you are saying it makes things tough. If you really want to plant a seed then I think it would be best to make the person you want to help feel respected, not belittled. The minute someone feels they are being mocked the conversation is over. And then it's not really about the conversation, it's just about "being right".

Where, exactly, have I mocked anyone? I actually have felt mocked by you and a few others. But I guess my feelings dont really matter since i am being perceived as a bully. Actually, if you really read what i have written, you would see that i am a fair person who is looking to have genuine discussions. Some of the things i say seem offensive probably because they are not the norm and they go outside social standards. Like questioning the person about their religious beliefs. They truly make no sense biologically and after asking simple questions all i got was a defensive attitude. If someone is so sensitive to criticism then why are they posting on a public forum? In reality, her beliefs are easily proven false, the vast majority of people would agree. I didnt reaize this forum was supportive of agreeing with people's beliefs simply because they are beliefs. Believe me, i could have been much ruder and less respectful, a lot of people probably would be, but i chose to be a decent human being who just wanted a few questions answered. I am open to changing my mind if someone gives a clear, concise argument but there wasnt one, only a belief that appears to be false. So, yes, i seem close-minded, but only because most people here dont want to have an intelligent discussion. I am not looking to be right, i am looking to have meaningful conversation. There is no need to fear me, i am tough but i'm also a reasonable person.

Also, i started to side with the people on this thread because RyanT was looking to change people's beliefs. However, I realize now that he was trying to have a reasonable discussion and no one wanted to be bothered. "We have answered all these questions before" and "you're rude, i dont want to talk to you"? What the heck? Is this not a legitimate discussion forum? If you're sick of answering the same questions then dont, no one is forcing you. If you only want to tangle with people who are respectful of your beliefs then you need to be respectful of theirs. It is a two-way street. It seems that all of you are standing here with your arms crossed just waiting for the "bullies" to come knocking so you can make them feel bad for even trying. If any of you had given a reasonable argument then you may have been able to teach him something, but therr was only resistance. He wouldnt have been polite and genuine if he wasnt looking for a real discussion. But no one is up to the challenge for some reason. If you all are set in your ways and dont want to be bothered then why are you even here?? Just to feel you are not alone? To have a sense of community in a world that is largely unsupportive of your choices? You should just say that then instead of pretending you are open to meaningful discussion.
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Old 06-18-2013, 06:24 PM
 
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Your feelings absolutely do matter and you have made some good points. However, when your points are peppered with " I am sorry you are having a hard time reading my text" it makes it hard to actually receive the communication objectively.

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Old 06-18-2013, 06:31 PM
 
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Your feelings absolutely do matter and you have made some good points. However, when your points are peppered with " I am sorry you are having a hard time reading my text" it makes it hard to actually receive the communication objectively.

That statement has no bearing on the fact that that poster has refused to have an actual conversation. Instead she just wants to stick her tongue out at me and say things like "paragraphs are your friend". That is an asinine statement that wasnt needed, again proving that she doesnt want to have a real conversation. Respond to me if you actually have something meaningful to add to the conversation. Otherwise, i am tired of this pointless pointing of fingers.
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