Reasons for not vaccinating children? - Page 5 - Mothering Forums

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#121 of 150 Old 06-19-2013, 03:10 PM
 
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All of the subforums for vaccines are biased so whatever info you guys are sharing is off-putting and lacks credibility. I am not sure what you mean about me being a "newbie"--are you referring to the fact that i havent gobbled up and swallowed all the fear-based propaganda you guys are tossing around? I am glad i am a newbie then and i'm going to remain one. That doesnt make me close-minded, simply sane. I prefer to go with sources that are not looking for a reason to wave their middle finger at the medical community. Because, as much as all of you would like to be seen as experts, you're simply not. You do not have a medical background, you are not formally educated in virology nor do you have any direct experience in this field. All you are is a bunch of neurotic mothers who dont trust the system.

Newbie means you are new here.

 

As per the bolded, I think you need to make sure of what you are talking about before you talk.

 

Here are few links from the subforums in the last few weeks- all of which contain credible sources:

 

http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1385283/ipv-and-varicella-skip-the-last-dose#post_17385239

 

http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1385313/i-need-advice-please-what-made-you-feel-comfortable-with-deciding-not-to-vaccinate-how-do-i-feel-comfortable-that-my-child-wont-get-seriously-ill-or-die

 

http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1376070/30-min-seizure-after-pentacel-vax

lots of credible links here.

 

I saw CDC sited, AAP, HRSA, FDA, Pubmed…..

 

ETA:  You seem angry - or maybe you just have a very volatile posting personality.  I have been the only non-vaxxer on a thread surrounded by vaxxers and it is not a nice place to be.  I honestly suggest you back off a bit - you are spiralling - read around and get a feel for the place.  There aren't many provaxxers around at the moment, but they will be back.  You may decide you like posting here or you may not - it is not for everyone.  Have a good evening.  

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#122 of 150 Old 06-19-2013, 03:13 PM
 
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Is not trusting the (corrupt) system a bad quality? Sad! I trust facts, systems, historically have not acted in trustworthy ways.

Let me explain something real simple: we have three forums: Non Vax, Mindful Vax, & Vax Debate. I personally only hang out in Vax debate & try to mostly link to objective sources. If I wanted to post a biased link from Mercola, I would post it in NonVax. If I wanted to post a link from Paul Offit/CHOP, I would post it in Mindful Vax. This is to promote organization & reduce the already considerable conflict on this here message board. Not to exist in some alternate reality cult. All of Mothering is just a part of my super large 'community'. I don't read just one type of source or post, but if I wanted to limit my input from sources I didn't agree with during say, a stressful pregnancy, that would be fine too. Stress is antithetical to health.
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#123 of 150 Old 06-19-2013, 03:15 PM
 
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I think it is HIGHLY debatable whether CDC, FDA, & AAP are 'credible' now a days. They are not free from COI, for sure.

I pretty much only find primary research & package inserts 'credible'. And primary research is only potentially credible, based on methods & funding.
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#124 of 150 Old 06-19-2013, 03:18 PM
 
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Actually i have been around since 2006. I am fickle with usernames, though, and i have also preferred to not be associated with past things i've posted, for a variety of reasons.

If i sound angry, i'm really not. Just more disgusted than anything else. I was a non-vaxer for the first year of my daughter's life but i changed my mind after reading some virology textbooks that helped me fully understand the science behind vaccines. I know thats not the whole picture, but i was sick of reading about all the possibilities when it comes to what could happen. I wanted to narrow it down to the straight, in-depth science and then use my own common sense after I took it all in. We can never fully know if our child is going to have a bad reaction to a vaccine nor can we know 100% for sure that our child wont contract an illness that does permanent damage or is very difficult/traumatizing for them to recover from. If i was planning on homeschooling or if i lived in a small rural community i probably wouldnt vaccinate. But thats just not the case, so after weighing the risks and benefits, i chose to vaccinate. She has not had a bad reaction nor shown any adverse affects except for a minor fever that went away quickly.
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#125 of 150 Old 06-19-2013, 03:21 PM
 
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I think it is HIGHLY debatable whether CDC, FDA, & AAP are 'credible' now a days. They are not free from COI, for sure.

I pretty much only find primary research & package inserts 'credible'. And primary research is only potentially credible, based on methods & funding.

 

I agree, I find the above organizations highly suspect.

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#126 of 150 Old 06-19-2013, 03:26 PM
 
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Actually i have been around since 2006. I am fickle with usernames, though, and i have also preferred to not be associated with past things i've posted, for a variety of reasons.

If i sound angry, i'm really not. Just more disgusted than anything else. I was a non-vaxer for the first year of my daughter's life but i changed my mind after reading some virology textbooks that helped me fully understand the science behind vaccines. I know thats not the whole picture, but i was sick of reading about all the possibilities when it comes to what could happen. I wanted to narrow it down to the straight, in-depth science and then use my own common sense after I took it all in. We can never fully know if our child is going to have a bad reaction to a vaccine nor can we know 100% for sure that our child wont contract an illness that does permanent damage or is very difficult/traumatizing for them to recover from. If i was planning on homeschooling or if i lived in a small rural community i probably wouldnt vaccinate. But thats just not the case, so after weighing the risks and benefits, i chose to vaccinate. She has not had a bad reaction nor shown any adverse affects except for a minor fever that went away quickly.

 

The problem with textbooks are that they are not unbiased, primary sources. 

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#127 of 150 Old 06-19-2013, 03:28 PM
 
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Respectfully, a virology textbook couldn't address my concerns. Toxicology might be a start, but Theology & Philosophy are also relevant. As is History, specifically Pharmaceutical US History (check out the film Bad Blood on Netflix).

Your daughter having no reactions is an anecdote, just like my child having a reaction is. Y'all got the benefit, with almost no risk. We got risk with a possible theoretical benefit. There is no way to distribute 'risk' fairly. Corporations on the Honor System, selling their products through mandates wouldn't tend to make their product safer. What on Earth would be the incentive to do so?
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#128 of 150 Old 06-19-2013, 03:30 PM
 
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Newbie means you are new here.

As per the bolded, I think you need to make sure what you are talking about before you talk.

Here are few links from the subforums in the last few days - all of which contain credible sources:

http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1385283/ipv-and-varicella-skip-the-last-dose#post_17385239

http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1385313/i-need-advice-please-what-made-you-feel-comfortable-with-deciding-not-to-vaccinate-how-do-i-feel-comfortable-that-my-child-wont-get-seriously-ill-or-die

http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1376070/30-min-seizure-after-pentacel-vax
lots of credible links here.

I saw CDC sited, AAP, HRSA, FDA, Pubmed…..

Blue:  are you calling non-vaxxers insane? 

I still believe the subforums for vaccines here are biased. Yes, some threads have links to sources that are more neutral but if you read the comments in many of the threads (even the ones you linked to) there is a strong anti-vax vibe. Also, from what i've read over the years, most links are biased. Thus, its hard to take what people post here seriously. It doesnt mean its all "wrong" or lies, but i still have a hard time trusting it.

Also, i know what being a newbie means, i was just making a sarcastic comment.
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#129 of 150 Old 06-19-2013, 03:34 PM
 
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The problem with textbooks are that they are not unbiased, primary sources. 

I have a hard time believing the books i read were making up the straight science of vaccines.
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#130 of 150 Old 06-19-2013, 03:38 PM
 
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I think it is HIGHLY debatable whether CDC, FDA, & AAP are 'credible' now a days. They are not free from COI, for sure.

I pretty much only find primary research & package inserts 'credible'. And primary research is only potentially credible, based on methods & funding.

 

It was more to make a point for primordial than anything else….  shrug.gif

 

Mainstream sources that many consider credible are linked, frequently, so I am not sure what she is  on about.


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#131 of 150 Old 06-19-2013, 03:46 PM
 
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It was more to make a point for primordial than anything else….  shrug.gif

Mainstream sources that many consider credible are linked, frequently, so I am not sure what she is  on about.

Not from what i've seen. Maybe this is a case of focusing on what you want to find?
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#132 of 150 Old 06-19-2013, 03:50 PM
 
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I have a hard time believing the books i read were making up the straight science of vaccines.

 

I did not say they were making it, just they are not unbiased, primary sources.


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#133 of 150 Old 06-19-2013, 03:53 PM
 
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I still believe the subforums for vaccines here are biased. Yes, some threads have links to sources that are more neutral but if you read the comments in many of the threads (even the ones you linked to) there is a strong anti-vax vibe. Also, from what i've read over the years, most links are biased. Thus, its hard to take what people post here seriously. It doesnt mean its all "wrong" or lies, but i still have a hard time trusting it.

Also, i know what being a newbie means, i was just making a sarcastic comment. No, i dont believe all non-vaxxers insane, but if you are simply gobbling up and swallowing everything you read in the vaccine forums here then i would wonder about your sanity.

 

I guess the same could be said if you were getting all your info just from CHOP, the CDC parents' pages, or your pediatrician.


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#134 of 150 Old 06-19-2013, 04:00 PM
 
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nm
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#135 of 150 Old 06-19-2013, 04:04 PM
 
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Not from what i've seen. Maybe this is a case of focusing on what you want to find?

banghead.gif  I linked threads that contained mainstream sources for you - and they were not hard to find.  This absolutely is a case of people only seeing what they want to see - but it isn't me.  Ciao. 

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#136 of 150 Old 06-19-2013, 04:05 PM
 
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There are definitely strong voices & frequent posters in Vax Debate (the only forum meant to contain both sides). I dare say there is nearly equal representation. Bias & financial COI are not exactly the same. I hope I can say no one here has financial COI.
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#137 of 150 Old 06-19-2013, 04:22 PM
 
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I am going to take another crack at this bias "issue."

 

Parents have every right to be pro or non vax as they see fit and to express those ideas.  I do not consider this bias, but if you do, so be it.

 

MDC discussion forums are for support, discussion and debate.  They are not designed to be unbiased education centres on vaccination.  People do share information here, but it is completely up to the reader to follow up and assess that information.  

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#138 of 150 Old 06-19-2013, 04:44 PM
 
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This thread has gone off the chain!!! :-P
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#139 of 150 Old 06-19-2013, 06:21 PM
 
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I guess the same could be said if you were getting all your info just from CHOP, the CDC parents' pages, or your pediatrician.

Which i definitely have not. The links i posted last night were a very small fraction of what i have read over the last seven years. Most links are on my old computer so i dont have them. I also dont see the point in being a spokesperson for pro-vax, which is what this feels like it has become.
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banghead.gif   I linked threads that contained mainstream sources for you - and they were not hard to find.  This absolutely is a case of people only seeing what they want to see - but it isn't me.  Ciao. 

You must have missed seeing my previous response in which i said yes, there are mainstream sources in the vax archives and other subforums here but the majority are anti-vax. I also said that even in the links you gave, many of the comments are anti-vax. Thus, there is obviously a bias. Also, correct me if i'm wrong, but i recall reading a thread recently in which people were wanting MDC to only promote those who dont vax or do so selectively or on a delayed schedule. If that doesnt show a strong agenda then i dont know what does.
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I am going to take another crack at this bias "issue."

Parents have every right to be pro or non vax as they see fit and to express those ideas.  I do not consider this bias, but if you do, so be it.

MDC discussion forums are for support, discussion and debate.  They are not designed to be unbiased education centres on vaccination.  People do share information here, but it is completely up to the reader to follow up and assess that information.  

Well, thank you for being honest. For once someone says something that makes perfect sense, at least to me.
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#140 of 150 Old 06-19-2013, 06:23 PM
 
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I did not say they were making it, just they are not unbiased, primary sources.

Good enough for me. As long as the information is truthful, i know i can assess things pretty well from that foundation.
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#141 of 150 Old 06-20-2013, 12:01 AM
 
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Due to multiple flags centered on one word ---

If your post contains the word neurotic, please go and edit it out as well as ANY thing that can look like or IS name calling.

 

In fact, please take this opportunity to look over your own posts in this thread and reword if at any time what you are saying can be construed as name calling.

Snarky talk is also not respectful, and should merit some self examination as well as posting examination.

 

I'll go through the thread tomorrow and send out PM's asking for edits not properly done. For now, its late and I'm asking people to take responsibility for their part in keeping this a community that respects and honors Mothering's User agreement. http://www.mothering.com/community/a/user-agreement

 

The only other options left after this are:

I can begin restricting users from the thread or lock the thread.

 

I'd rather do neither.

 

 

For clarity RyanT (the OP) asked this question:

 

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Now my question is simply, what is the reasoning behind preventing your children from being vaccination?

 

You can choose to answer, or not...but you must stay inside the bounds of Mothering's User agreement

 

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We expect our members to keep conversations civil and on topic, and uphold the integrity and diversity of the community. We value the honest and supportive exchange of ideas and opinions, and we ask that members avoid negative characterizations and generalizations about others. Examples and calm explanation are more useful than condemnation of ideas that differ from Mothering's philosophies.

 

 

Also

 

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Hate posts and personal attacks will not be tolerated. Treat others as you would want to be treated. Attacking someone to provoke a negative response is not allowed.

 

 

 

Please look over your posts with an honest heart and make the right choice.

 

Take care ladies...


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#142 of 150 Old 06-20-2013, 01:07 AM
 
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kamiro--i edited mine, let me know if i missed anything.


kathymuggle--i'm really not angry nor volatile. I was feeling like the center of attention when it wasnt my intention to be. It makes sense that i was but i didnt realize that would happen when i first started posting. I think this may have added to the intensity of my words.

Like i said before, i am a tough person and when a conversation gets heated i often sound a bit angry but i'm just a passionate person. I really dont think i was spiraling, just on a long tangent lol.gif. I dont know what more i can do to add to the conversation, it seems to have diverted quite a bit from the original discussion. Maybe someone can start a new thread if they want to discuss anything that was discussed here.
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#143 of 150 Old 06-20-2013, 08:46 AM
 
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Mirzam and Marnica--can you disprove what is being stated in the links i gave? I am not trying to be snarky or whatever, i'm being sincere. I figured the info about the trials is just how it is, i didnt get the impression they were lying or embellishing about the process. Also, the book i linked to is very interesting and a great historical reference for the social and political aspect of the making of vaccines. Again, if you can disprove that source i am all ears. If you simply dont like them because they're "pro-vax" then i'd venture to say you're the ones that are biased.

Also, the reasons why people are questioning vaccines is probably wide-ranging. I mentioned one possibility that people were offended by, other possibilities could be rumors they've heard about vaccines causing autism or other long-term health problems, the ingredients scaring them off, lack of trust in the medical community, lack of awareness of how vaccines work and how the body processes them, or a belief that we simply dont need them in order to be healthy. There is a lot of info out there that is very easy to buy into and all it does is fuel the fire for being against vaccines. Some people dont trust the pro-vax sources so they gravitate towards anti-vax. Completely unbiased sources is rare. I've been going through the archives of the non-vax subforum here and most links are either subtly anti-vax or strongly anti-vax. Thats not going to help someone who is new or sitting on the fence, either. There is also a strong cult vibe to that subforum, like they all believe the same thing, nothing is going to change their mind and they enjoy banding together in order to feel stronger. It doesnt feel very inviting, even if i were a non-vaxer, i would feel put off by the intensity of the anger and fear that is present there.

PM.

 

I have read the rest of the thread, but wanted to respond to you because you have asked me a direct question. The answer is I don't know because I haven't looked at your links. I responded to you initially not about the evidence or lack thereof that you have presented, but in response to your statement that you "despise" the expectation that all beliefs should be respected simply because they are someones beliefs. I found this narrow minded and disrespectful and was letting you know (since you shared your primary purpose was to plant seeds and not stand by as people put forth beliefs/evidence that were wrong) that I get turned off by this type of attitude and as another poster mentioned upthread, when this happens the discussion tends to shut down. That was my point in my original response you you. Once respect is gone, one ceases to learn. You have actually illustrated my point nicely winky.gif. In any case, I have no interest in proving or disproving anything. As Mirzam shared, I am ok with my choice and I'm ok with others choices and respect them whether or not I agree with them. I find trying to sway people's opinions a waste of time and energy .I am a very busy lady. I work full time, have 2 active children and only come on this site when a patient doesn't show up and I have a few extra minutes. 

 

In any case, I do agree with you that all sources are biased to some degree. A truly non-biased source of information doesn't exist imo. I also find your comment about a link being "antivax" because of the comment section bizarre. What does the comment section of any link provided have to do with whether or not a source is credible or unbiased? Anybody can make a comment on a link, doesn't make it pro or anti anything. All it means is that someone with a pro or anti vax opinion is commenting something. 

 

With that said I'm out Bolt.gif

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#144 of 150 Old 06-20-2013, 09:28 AM
 
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Well then, in that case, i was being respectful because i just wanted to know why she refused to answer simple, non-attacking questions. All she did was give me attitude. If she cant respect that this is a public forum where people are going to ask questions then she shouldnt be so open about her beliefs.


You actually straight up said "I do not respect these beliefs"

It seemed to me that the rationale for not respecting them was because you did not agree with them.

There are countless things that I do not agree with that I respect anyway. There is a difference.
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#145 of 150 Old 06-20-2013, 09:37 AM
 
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Originally Posted by emmy526 View Post

My Creator did not design my or my children's body to be loaded with artifical means of health.  He gave us an immune system for a reason, and a functioning one at that.  Man has the capability to ruin that which our Creator gave us.  I will not put pharma's needs  greeds or false promises, over our Creator.  

Hebrews 11:1" Faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see"
She's making a statement of faith here, if you can physically prove it, it's not faith anymore.

1 Corinthians 1:18 "the message of the cross is foolishness to the perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God"
Sorry if her beliefs sound like foolishness to some of you, but to her (and me) it is Power!

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#146 of 150 Old 06-20-2013, 09:54 AM
 
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You actually straight up said "I do not respect these beliefs"

It seemed to me that the rationale for not respecting them was because you did not agree with them.

There are countless things that I do not agree with that I respect anyway. There is a difference.

I made that statement because i thought people were wanting me to come from a place of agreement before i said anything. I know thats not technically what respect is, but i couldnt figure out why anyone had an issue with me wanting her to answer simple questions about illness and biology. When she wouldnt answer them and gave me an attitude after that, any respect i had went out the window. Maybe this makes me a "lesser" human but i felt disrespected for simply wanting to understand her perspective. It is totally new to me and sounds very far-fetched, which is why i wanted basic questions answered. I couldnt figure out any other reason for her not wanting to answer them than the fact that she didnt have logical answers. To me and to the majority of people, this completely defies reality since, as far as i can tell, we all live on the same planet with the same physical and biological laws. Therefore, i cannot respect what appears to be made-up nonsense.

So then when someone said "you dont have to agree with someone in order to respect them" i said, well in that case, i was respectful. Do you understand my perspective now?
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#147 of 150 Old 06-20-2013, 10:17 AM
 
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PM.

I have read the rest of the thread, but wanted to respond to you because you have asked me a direct question. The answer is I don't know because I haven't looked at your links. I responded to you initially not about the evidence or lack thereof that you have presented, but in response to your statement that you "despise" the expectation that all beliefs should be respected simply because they are someones beliefs. I found this narrow minded and disrespectful and was letting you know (since you shared your primary purpose was to plant seeds and not stand by as people put forth beliefs/evidence that were wrong) that I get turned off by this type of attitude and as another poster mentioned upthread, when this happens the discussion tends to shut down. That was my point in my original response you you. Once respect is gone, one ceases to learn. You have actually illustrated my point nicely winky.gif
. In any case, I have no interest in proving or disproving anything. As Mirzam shared, I am ok with my choice and I'm ok with others choices and respect them whether or not I agree with them. I find trying to sway people's opinions a waste of time and energy .I am a very busy lady. I work full time, have 2 active children and only come on this site when a patient doesn't show up and I have a few extra minutes. 

In any case, I do agree with you that all sources are biased to some degree. A truly non-biased source of information doesn't exist imo. I also find your comment about a link being "antivax" because of the comment section bizarre. What does the comment section of any link provided have to do with whether or not a source is credible or unbiased? Anybody can make a comment on a link, doesn't make it pro or anti anything. All it means is that someone with a pro or anti vax opinion is commenting something. 

With that said I'm out Bolt.gif

I think you may have missed where i explained myself when it comes to the respect issue (or maybe you dont agree or understand) so i'll try to explain further. Pretty much every person on this planet holds beliefs. Many of these people are simply attaching to their parent's beliefs. Many of these people are parroting others or hoping and praying that their beliefs are real. They cant really explain why they believe them nor do a lot of them even try other than quotes. Most of the time, i leave these people be, even though i dont agree with them and in the back of my mind i'm doubting that the beliefs are true. But its not really my place to get in their face and make them question beliefs that i usually cant prove right or wrong anyway.

Occasionally someone comes along who shares beliefs that i (and the majority of people) can prove wrong AND is a potentially very dangerous way of going about life. I simply will not stand by and keep my mouth shut, especially if children are involved. So, on the surface, it appears that i'm just a big bully but i am actually looking out for people and their children. Not wanting to face reality is a huge problem if it involves the well-being of others, especially children. I simply dont buy into "your reality" and "my reality" type thinking because there is no proof of that and there are countless experiences of people believing the same sort of thing who learned the hard way that their beliefs are false. Maybe if people point this out enough the ones who believe that sort of thing will re-think what they hold to be true. I dont know, but i'm compelled to try.

You also missed my point when it comes to the anti-vax bias. I acknowledged that those are mainstream sources, but all around the source there are several comments that are on the other side of the spectrum. Thus, its not consistent and doesnt give a clear message. I can give plenty of links but if in my own words i'm saying something else then what am i really communicating? So since the majority of comments are anti-vax, the links have an inconsistent foundation making them much less credible and almost just for show.
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#148 of 150 Old 06-20-2013, 10:29 AM
 
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Originally Posted by 3LilChunklins View Post

Hebrews 11:1" Faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see"
She's making a statement of faith here, if you can physically prove it, it's not faith anymore.

1 Corinthians 1:18 "the message of the cross is foolishness to the perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God"
Sorry if her beliefs sound like foolishness to some of you, but to her (and me) it is Power!

So, in the case of the first quote, if you can physically disprove it then what does the statement become?

You probably dont mean it this way, but the second quote is insulting. Just because a person isnt a Christian of that denomination doesnt necessarily mean they are "perishing". I know you are quoting the Bible, but i find it rude. It also doesnt answer any of my questions.
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#149 of 150 Old 06-20-2013, 10:41 AM
 
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Some times you just have to know when to throw in the towel...argue.gif

 

Threads locked.

 

We're all adults so I'm sure you can see that it would take an hour of my time to clean this up, document, send PM's... and no guarantees it would even make sense afterwards.

 

 

 

Let's play nicer on the next thread, ok?


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#150 of 150 Old 06-25-2013, 11:03 AM
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Excuse the off topic post but this is a popular thread so I want to hitch a ride on it for the benefit of the community. orngbiggrin.gif

 

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