Reasons for not vaccinating children? - Mothering Forums

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Old 06-16-2013, 07:14 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I'd first like to start of by saying hello! First time i've came across these forums, hopefully I can get some insight into this belief :D

Now my question is simply, what is the reasoning behind preventing your children from being vaccination? I'm sure the majority of you would acknowledge that vaccines have eradicated many a plethora of diseases that once killed hundreds of millions annually, It would be dishonest of anybody to claim otherwise, in my personal opinion. 

So why the sudden paradigm shift? Does your anti-vaccination mentality stem from an overall distrust of governing bodies or pharmaceutical companies? 

I'm also sure you'd agree vaccines have been heavily studied and it seems to me the vitriol and neglect vaccines receive is somewhat unwarranted. 

Of course vaccines have side effects, there isn't an M.D or epidemiologically researcher who would state otherwise, but there is a risk vs benefit analysis that is conducted on each and every medicine and vaccines unequivocally save more people than they harm. 

Is it the fact that you feel vaccines aren't necessarily needed nowadays and the risks are beginning to outweigh the benefits?


Thank you for your time. 

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Old 06-16-2013, 07:51 AM
 
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My own children? We have a family history of vaccine injury and reactions, as well as a child allergic to ingredients in specific vaxxes. In addition, while smallpox is not currently on the schedule, I have multiple children who are at risk for severe illness or death from being injected with or in close proximity to someone who has been recently vaxxed with it.

 

My children were born vax-free. Non-vaxxing is the default. I'd need a really compelling reason for that to change. One that clearly outweighed the risks to *my* children.

 

I have many other reasons, but I'll leave it at that for now.

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Old 06-16-2013, 08:08 AM
 
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My Creator did not design my or my children's body to be loaded with artifical means of health.  He gave us an immune system for a reason, and a functioning one at that.  Man has the capability to ruin that which our Creator gave us.  I will not put pharma's needs  greeds or false promises, over our Creator.  

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Old 06-16-2013, 08:20 AM - Thread Starter
 
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My own children? We have a family history of vaccine injury and reactions, as well as a child allergic to ingredients in specific vaxxes. In addition, while smallpox is not currently on the schedule, I have multiple children who are at risk for severe illness or death from being injected with or in close proximity to someone who has been recently vaxxed with it.

 

My children were born vax-free. Non-vaxxing is the default. I'd need a really compelling reason for that to change. One that clearly outweighed the risks to *my* children.

 

I have many other reasons, but I'll leave it at that for now.

 

I suppose that makes sense if you have had a confirmation by doctors that you and your family are in a high risk group for people who could be effected by vaccines. Have you had a medical confirmation?

I don't really see how your children are at risk by being exposed to somebody who has been vaccinated with the smallpox vaccine? Vaccines don't linger in a body and they don't equip somebody with some sort of radioactive capabilities. They enter, your immune system builds up a response to the attenuated virus, and then it leaves.
 
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My Creator did not design my or my children's body to be loaded with artifical means of health.  He gave us an immune system for a reason, and a functioning one at that.  Man has the capability to ruin that which our Creator gave us.  I will not put pharma's needs  greeds or false promises, over our Creator.  

You seem to imply that our immune system is infallible and can cure and heal ourselves no matter our plight. Have you never taken medication or been to a hospital of any sorts? Why do people become ill then if our immune system is perfectly functional? What about those with compromised immune system? 

I'm not quite sure whether you are insinuating that you will never have cancer and your children will never have cancer for example? What if you are genetically predisposed to a certain type of illness? 

It does seem risky to place your children's health on such shaky grounds. It certainly doesn't hold true for the hundreds of millions of children who were being killed by these diseases nearly a hundred years ago?

 

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Old 06-16-2013, 08:32 AM
 
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I suppose that makes sense if you have had a confirmation by doctors that you and your family are in a high risk group for people who could be effected by vaccines. Have you had a medical confirmation?

That is really none of your business. I shared *why* we chose not to vaccinate. I am not interested in a debate over whether or not you believe my reasons are compelling enough for you or who you think I need to receive confirmation or permission from.

 

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I don't really see how your children are at risk by being exposed to somebody who has been vaccinated with the smallpox vaccine? Vaccines don't linger in a body and they don't equip somebody with some sort of radioactive capabilities. They enter, your immune system builds up a response to the attenuated virus, and then it leaves.

Take your issue up with the CDC. They are the ones who state that anyone living in the household with someone who has my daughters' condition are contraindicated from having the smallpox vaccine. And, yes, there are real life cases of this happening.

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Old 06-16-2013, 08:35 AM
 
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Are you really here to gain insight from the non-vaccinating community?

I doubt it, and I won't participate.


 
 
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Old 06-16-2013, 08:41 AM - Thread Starter
 
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That is really none of your business. I shared *why* we chose not to vaccinate. I am not interested in a debate over whether or not you believe my reasons are compelling enough for you or who you think I need to receive confirmation or permission from.

 

Take your issue up with the CDC. They are the ones who state that anyone living in the household with someone who has my daughters' condition are contraindicated from having the smallpox vaccine. And, yes, there are real life cases of this happening.

Well I did purposely post this question in the Vaccinations discussion and debate section of the forum for a reason. I'm sorry if i've offended you, this wasn't my objective when I made this post. I'm just curious as to if you've received medical conformation by a specialist specifically saying that your children are exempt from receiving the vaccine. If that is the case then that is perfectly fine. 

There are groups of people that are exempt from receiving vaccines temporarily or permenantly, these are those who are immunocompromised or are too young to receive the vaccine. 

Small Pox may I add has been eradicated, its first and second strains do not exist in the wild anymore due to vaccine endeavours. I suspect however you are preventing your children from receiving all vaccines and not just the Small Pox one (which by the way isn't administered anymore). Why is that?

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Old 06-16-2013, 08:43 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Are you really here to gain insight from the non-vaccinating community?

I doubt it, and I won't participate.

Well I obviously have my preconceived ideas on the topic and I'm not coming into this with zero knowledge at all. This is a debate forum after all, you don't have to participate if you feel you don't need to. 

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Old 06-16-2013, 08:48 AM
 
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I'm just curious as to if you've received medical conformation by a specialist specifically saying that your children are exempt from receiving the vaccine. If that is the case then that is perfectly fine.

ROTFLMAO.gif Last time I checked I didn't need to have a medical professionals permission to "exempt" my children from vaccinations. They are *my* children and thankfully I live in a state which still believes *I* get to make that decision. And I can make it for whatever reason I want to. And it is perfectly fine.

 

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There are groups of people that are exempt from receiving vaccines temporarily or permenantly, these are those who are immunocompromised or are too young to receive the vaccine.

According to you? Every state has its own exemption rules. See above.

 

 

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Small Pox may I add has been eradicated, its first and second strains do not exist in the wild anymore due to vaccine endeavours. I suspect however you are preventing your children from receiving all vaccines and not just the Small Pox one (which by the way isn't administered anymore). Why is that?

I've already answered you. You don't like my answer and demand proof that my answer is sufficiently legitimate for you. Why are you here again?

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Old 06-16-2013, 08:55 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I've already answered you. You don't like my answer and demand proof that my answer is sufficiently legitimate for you. Why are you here again?

I'm here out of curiosity to genuinely see why people don't want to give their children vaccines. As of yet it seems you wrote out a long paragraph about why your children aren't allowed to receive the Small Pox vaccine, something that isn't even administered anymore, i've questioned you on this and you seem victimised as if i'm trying to take away your rights.

You still haven't answered my question as to why you refuse to vaccinate your children, I understand it is your choice as a guardian but what is the reasoning behind this? If your children are in the group classed as immunocompromised then as i've said, that is perfectly fine. 

If you don't want to give your children vaccines because you feel they are dangerous, just say. 

 

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According to you? Every state has its own exemption rules. See above.

 

 

Exempt as in they are not allowed to be administered the vaccine, not that only they are the people in a country or state who aren't allowed one. I understand people choose not to have them.

 

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Old 06-16-2013, 08:58 AM
 
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RyanT, perhaps you would care to elaborate on how you came to find your way to this forum, and why you are looking for insight. You must realize that nothing you have posted is in any shape or form a revelation to those of use who choose not to vaccinate their children. Please also realize that the posters on here have many,many thousands of collective hours of research on the subject and haven't come to their conclusion on a whim. I can only speak for myself, but frankly, I have better things to do with my time than answer questions we have answered and debated countless times before. 


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Old 06-16-2013, 08:58 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I've been nothing but nice and all i've received is callous and contemptuous replies. I'm here for an open discussion about the issue, if you don't want to participate because you feel i'm encroaching on your personal life then feel free not to reply. 

It seems i'm being attacked for having an inquisitive nature. 

I guess i'll have to try another forum board whom are a little more civil in their responses. 

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Old 06-16-2013, 09:08 AM - Thread Starter
 
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RyanT, perhaps you would care to elaborate on how you came to find your way to this forum, and why you are looking for insight. You must realize that nothing you have posted is in any shape or form a revelation to those of use who choose not to vaccinate their children. Please also realize that the posters on here have many,many thousands of collective hours of research on the subject and haven't come to their conclusion on a whim. I can only speak for myself, but frankly, I have better things to do with my time than answer questions we have answered and debated countless times before. 


Truthfully, I came here to understand why people don't want to vaccinate their children and see if I can "expose", for lack of a better word, their arguments to show that their reasoning is irrational. 

I understand I most likely won't convince anybody, but hopefully I can "plant the seed" and give some people the motivation to google counter-arguments to their claims, see what the science has to say about the matter because the science certainly isn't anti-vaccination. 

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Old 06-16-2013, 09:14 AM
 
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I'm here out of curiosity to genuinely see why people don't want to give their children vaccines. As of yet it seems you wrote out a long paragraph about why your children aren't allowed to receive the Small Pox vaccine, something that isn't even administered anymore, i've questioned you on this and you seem victimised as if i'm trying to take away your rights.

You still haven't answered my question as to why you refuse to vaccinate your children, I understand it is your choice as a guardian but what is the reasoning behind this? If your children are in the group classed as immunocompromised then as i've said, that is perfectly fine. 

If you don't want to give your children vaccines because you feel they are dangerous, just say.

 

Please go back and reread my original paragraph. Only the last sentence was about smallpox.

 

 

Quote:
Exempt as in they are not allowed to be administered the vaccine, not that only they are the people in a country or state who aren't allowed one. I understand people choose not to have them.

You are talking about contraindications. Exemptions are a legal matter.

 

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I've been nothing but nice and all i've received is callous and contemptuous replies.

Some of us are tired of the repeated attacks by those who come here with no more reason than to tell us how we are all responsible for bringing back diseases and killing all the children. You didn't use this tactic, which is the only reason I engaged you, but you appear to be subtly implying that your mission here is to get us to agree that our reasons for non-vaxxing are wrong and therefore we will all change our minds. This by the way...

 

Quote:

 

Vaccines don't linger in a body and they don't equip somebody with some sort of radioactive capabilities.

 is not "nothing but nice".

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Old 06-16-2013, 09:15 AM
 
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You seem to imply that our immune system is infallible and can cure and heal ourselves no matter our plight. Have you never taken medication or been to a hospital of any sorts? Why do people become ill then if our immune system is perfectly functional? What about those with compromised immune system? 

I'm not quite sure whether you are insinuating that you will never have cancer and your children will never have cancer for example? What if you are genetically predisposed to a certain type of illness? 

It does seem risky to place your children's health on such shaky grounds. It certainly doesn't hold true for the hundreds of millions of children who were being killed by these diseases nearly a hundred years ago?

 

my beliefs are excatly that..MY beliefs..you don't have to agree with them. 

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Old 06-16-2013, 09:16 AM
 
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RyanT, perhaps you would care to elaborate on how you came to find your way to this forum, and why you are looking for insight. You must realize that nothing you have posted is in any shape or form a revelation to those of use who choose not to vaccinate their children. Please also realize that the posters on here have many,many thousands of collective hours of research on the subject and haven't come to their conclusion on a whim. I can only speak for myself, but frankly, I have better things to do with my time than answer questions we have answered and debated countless times before. 


Truthfully, I came here to understand why people don't want to vaccinate their children and see if I can "expose", for lack of a better word, their arguments to show that their reasoning is irrational. 

I understand I most likely won't convince anybody, but hopefully I can "plant the seed" and give some people the motivation to google counter-arguments to their claims, see what the science has to say about the matter because the science certainly isn't anti-vaccination. 

 

 

RyanT, all you have done so far is parrot mainstream belief about vaccinations, I won't even address the word "science". Exactly how much research have you done on the vaccine issue, because I really don't know where to start to be frank which is why I am very reluctant to discuss this with you. A suggestion: if you are really sincere, take a few days to read through this forum, it might afford you more insight.


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Old 06-16-2013, 09:20 AM
 
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As I was saying...

Quote:
Truthfully, I came here to understand why people don't want to vaccinate their children and see if I can "expose", for lack of a better word, their arguments to show that their reasoning is irrational. 

I understand I most likely won't convince anybody, but hopefully I can "plant the seed" and give some people the motivation to google counter-arguments to their claims, see what the science has to say about the matter because the science certainly isn't anti-vaccination.

 

Please stop assuming that we haven't done our research, that we haven't read the science ourselves, that we haven't heard all your arguments, all the arguments from the vaccine manufacturers and the government.

 

If you are genuinely interested in having a conversation with non-vaxxers, you might start by listening rather than accusing us of having illegitimate reasons for our stance, even if you don't agree with or don't understand it.

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Old 06-16-2013, 09:20 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Please go back and reread my original paragraph. Only the last sentence was about smallpox.

 

I must of skimmed over that, I have been replying to other posts and doing things in real life so I sort of forgot. 

 

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Originally Posted by fruitfulmomma View Post

You are talking about contraindications. Exemptions are a legal matter.

 

Apologies, my semantics has failed me here. 

 

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Originally Posted by fruitfulmomma View Post

 

 

Some of us are tired of the repeated attacks by those who come here with no more reason than to tell us how we are all responsible for bringing back diseases and killing all the children. You didn't use this tactic, which is the only reason I engaged you, but you appear to be subtly implying that your mission here is to get us to agree that our reasons for non-vaxxing are wrong and therefore we will all change our minds. This by the way...

 

Well I do hold the position that not vaccinating your children is wrong just like you most likely have the opinion that vaccinating children is wrong. 

 

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 is not "nothing but nice".

Out of everything I have said, that was the comment that hit you hard? I was making the point that if your children are allergic to the vaccine they shouldn't be allergic to somebody who has had the vaccine because it doesn't stay in the body and it doesn't change them as a human being, it just affects their immune system. Something that shouldn't have an effect on your child's immune system. 

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Old 06-16-2013, 09:31 AM - Thread Starter
 
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RyanT, all you have done so far is parrot mainstream belief about vaccinations, I won't even address the word "science". Exactly how much research have you done on the vaccine issue, because I really don't know where to start to be frank which is why I am very reluctant to discuss this with you. A suggestion: if you are really sincere, take a few days to read through this forum, it might afford you more insight.


Well it is mainstream belief for a reason because it is the consensus view amongst scientists in these areas, be them doctors, virologists, epidemiologists or simply medical researchers. I have also done a lot of research into the vaccine issue and I simply cannot understand how this side of the fence is at all convincing? I cannot find studies with good methodology, double blinded, large population size and that do not use dubious statistical analyses that clearly give empirical evidence for the harmfulness of vaccines. 

This stance is similar to anti-fluoridation movements, nearly all studies show that fluoridation is not harmful (except for dental fluorosis) and there are only a few studies that say otherwise that many anti-fluoridation proponents will link to on forums and youtube videos. If you were to actually read the studies, which none of them do and i'm sure many people on here have never opened up a study on a medical journal, once you read them you see that the fluoridation levels given to children was orders of magnitudes higher than the safety limit.
Of course fluorine will lower your IQ if you drink water containing in some cases, 30 times the doses. 

This is the same (it seems) for the anti-vaccination movement, the studies are preliminary and flawed and the people who claim they have done tens of thousands of hours of research haven't. They have read anti-vaccination propaganda by anti-vaccination proponents. 

Nearly all of these topics inevitably lead to conspiracies because the science is not on their side. I also don't doubt everybody on this forum subscribes to a permutation of some idea that BigPharma is inserting dangerous substances in the vaccines for nefarious purposes or that they are hiding the cures for cancers. 

If you feel like you have a legitimate basis as to why you feel the need not to vaccinate your children other than that it is your right to do so, can you please tell me? Please link me some studies, please give me some information. 

Thank you for reading. 

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Old 06-16-2013, 09:38 AM
 
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I must of skimmed over that, I have been replying to other posts and doing things in real life so I sort of forgot. 

Huh. That was the very first response to you and you responded rather quickly. My bad for assuming you had actually read what I wrote. Let me spell it out again... 1) We have a family history of vaccine injury and reactions. A point I did not make originally is that this is to multiple different vaccinations. 2)One of my children has medically-verified allergies to the ingredients in certain vaccinations, multiple vaccinations, not just one. 3)I *know* that the smallpox vaccine is not on the schedule. It is however still given to military personal. I bring it up because it is one example of a vaccine that for our family is contraindicated by the CDC and it is also contraindicated by the CDC for anyone in our household, because contrary to your assertion, it can in fact spread a very serious disease to those with a medical condition that my children have, if they were to come into close contact with someone who has been recently vaccinated. This is easily verifiable by both the CDC and the military's smallpox response websites.

 

 

Quote:
Out of everything I have said, that was the comment that hit you hard? I was making the point that if your children are allergic to the vaccine they shouldn't be allergic to somebody who has had the vaccine because it doesn't stay in the body and it doesn't change them as a human being, it just affects their immune system. Something that shouldn't have an effect on your child's immune system.

Making a ridiculous claim (radioactive properties) is not good debate form. Obviously you misunderstood what I was saying. Please see above for clarification. The smallpox issue and the allergy issue are not the same.

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Old 06-16-2013, 09:40 AM
 
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I cannot find studies with good methodology, double blinded, large population size and that do not use dubious statistical analyses that clearly give empirical evidence for the harmfulness of vaccines.

Can you point us to any studies that 1) Compare children who are totally unvaccinated to children who are partially or fully vaccinated? 2) Studies on vaccinated individuals where real placebos and not just other vaccinations are used?

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Old 06-16-2013, 09:45 AM
 
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RyanT, you have just posted directly from "The Vaccine Propnents Playbook". So I will not be engaging you in this discussion. Have a nice day!


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Old 06-16-2013, 09:51 AM - Thread Starter
 
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RyanT, you have just posted directly from "The Vaccine Propnents Playbook". So I will not be engaging you in this discussion. Have a nice day!

The what?

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Old 06-16-2013, 09:54 AM
 
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Can you point us to any studies that 1) Compare children who are totally unvaccinated to children who are partially or fully vaccinated? 2) Studies on vaccinated individuals where real placebos and not just other vaccinations are used?

 

Here's one for ya which shows the flu vax causes 5.5 times more respiratory infections, placebo used was saline.

 

                                                       Vaccinated        Placebo (saline)
Any Seasonal Influenza                             58                     88
H1N1 (Swine Flu ‘Pandemic’)                     58                       0
Total Influenza Cases                              116                    88
 
Noninfluenza Viruses
Rhinovirus (common cold)                         230                    59
Coxsackie/Echovirus                                160                      0
Other Respiratory Viruses                           97                    29
Total Other Viruses                                  487                   88

 


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Old 06-16-2013, 10:01 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by fruitfulmomma View Post

Can you point us to any studies that 1) Compare children who are totally unvaccinated to children who are partially or fully vaccinated? 2) Studies on vaccinated individuals where real placebos and not just other vaccinations are used?


I don't understand what you are asking. Are you insinuating vaccines do not actually work? 

There aren't hard to find and you make it sound like none of these exist:
http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/189/Supplement_1/S1.full

"...from 1956 to 1960, an average of 542,000 cases of measles were reported annually." "From 1956 to 1960, an average of 450 measles-related deaths were reported each year (∼1 death/ 1000 reported cases), compared with an average of 5300 measles-related deaths during 1912–1916"

and now: "
Measles is no longer endemic in the United States [11]. Since 1997, the reported annual incidence has been <1 case/1 million population."

Is just one example of measles eradication in the US. 




 

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Old 06-16-2013, 10:06 AM
 
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Hi RyanT,

Seems like quite a lively discussion here smile.gif

If you're really curious about the reasons people might question the current vaccine schedule, there are lots of great resources available. I just finished the book "Vaccine Epidemic," and it was a very thorough account of the issue- I'd recommend it.

I only seriously started questioning vaccines a few years ago, after my older daughter had what I suspected was a reaction to the HPV shot but before I'd even considered having more kids for which to make these decisions.

When you are expecting a new baby the standard newborn treatments, such as eye ointment, vit k shot, and hep b vaccine, you begin to wonder why so much intervention. Your child is yours to love and protect, and it is important to educate yourself on his or her care, rather than just doing what you're told without thinking. Why the hep b vax at birth, Ryan? Only a child with a hep b positive mother actually benefits from receiving the shot at so young an age. Why is it administered across the board, then? Because from an administrative standpoint, medical professionals have the greatest access to the greatest number of people at that time. It has nothing to do with the health of that one individual child, so refusing the shot at birth does not endanger your baby. In addition, there is peer reviewed scientific literature that offers valid reasons why a newborn might not be able to handle the vaccine without harm AND documented side effects that include catastrophic illness and even death. Plus, the vaccine is not safety tested in newborns, at all, and for some that would be enough reason not to give a drug product, right there.

Thats a very rough and simple sketch, but basically, once you ask the questions and get the answers for one vaccine, do that for each of the others. It is a difficult and time consuming process. So much easier to just trust what doctors and the mainstream are saying. But seriously, look at their motives and examine your own. You are the only one in the picture who has the best interest of your particular child at heart.
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Originally Posted by RyanT View Post

Well I do hold the position that not vaccinating your children is wrong just like you most likely have the opinion that vaccinating children is wrong. 

I doubt many parents who choose to abstain from or delay vaccines feel that vaccinating children in general is wrong. Most would like more safety, more transparency, less coercive and secretive behavior by officials promoting vaccines, and less obvious financial incentives to promote them. What we are mostly arguing for is fully informed consent, and the right to choose whether or not to vaccinate, without legal consequences.

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Old 06-16-2013, 10:11 AM
 
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Source: http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/graphs/

 

BMJ: Measles not the scary disease the press want you to think


t
 
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Old 06-16-2013, 10:21 AM
 
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Oh, and I really don't want to engage in a debate, either. I have spent countless hours researching, discussing, and pondering this decision ( which remains an ongoing decision) and it isn't fun sport for me to have to defend my position against the same simplistic and rudimentary attacks you see everywhere from uneducated (on this issue specifically) folks who have swallowed the party line. It only takes a little reading to realize this is a far more complex issue than your posts assume.

As you say, I'm not expecting to change your mind, but maybe I can "plant a seed" wink1.gif

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Old 06-16-2013, 10:47 AM
 
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I don't understand what you are asking. Are you insinuating vaccines do not actually work?

 

No, I am insinuating that I want to see studies on vaccinations dealing with both safety *and* efficacy where 1)There were totally unvaccinated children present and 2)The placebo used was a true placebo and not another vaccine/drug/preserver. You gave a long list of things you want to see in a study. I was just adding to the list things I'd like to see in a study on vaccinations.

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Old 06-16-2013, 10:54 AM
 
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But you've now made clear the real reason you are here, which is to try to persuade us to vaccinate our children and to convince us that our reasons for not are wrong. So I think this conversation is now at a standstill. Have a nice day. Or a happy Father's Day if you have children.

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